埃德·卡爾德隆：墨西哥販毒集團

Lex Fridman Podcast #346 – Ed Calderon: Mexican Drug Cartels Machine transcription by Qwen3-ASR 0.6B (MLX, local, Apache-2.0). May contain recognition errors. The following is a conversation with Ed Calderon, a security specialist who has worked for many years on counter narcotics and organized crime investigation in the northern border region of Mexico. I highly recommend you follow the writing and courses on his Patreon and website, EdsManifesto dot com. And now a quick few second mention of a sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. We got Policy Genius for life insurance, Bambi for HR services, Onit for supplements and Inside Tracker for biomonitoring. Choose wisely, my friends. And now onto the full lattitudes. As always, no ads in the middle. I try to make this interesting, but if you skip them, please still check out our sponsors. I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will too. 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Under a strict diet, and it's interesting to measure that through data to get blood data, to get DNA data, fitness tracker data, and use all that to to see if I am doing better or worse than I was before, and based on that make recommendations for diet and lifestyle changes. That's exactly what Inside Tracker does. Get special savings for a limited time when you go to InsideTracker dot com slash Lex. This is the Lex Friedman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here is Ed Calderon. What does your experience in counter narcotics investigating the Mexican drug cartel teach you about human nature? Wow, I mean, first off, anybody can be got. Anybody can be corrupted. You know you you work in that field and you you realistically the training we got and profiling and investigation and stuff like stuff like that was basically you learn from the older guys there. And some of those guys were already corrupted from from the start. So trust no one. I remember seeing that X Files episode where that was stated. You quickly learn that even if you are somebody that to your own mind appears incorruptible. You know small changes happen around you. Wheels get greased, the money gets put in front of you, and or things get threatened like your life. And sometimes a payment for some of this corruption is just to continue on living. You encounter people that seem incorruptible that go through FBI background checks that go through all of the. The security measures that all of us were put through, you know, polygraph test, and then later on, you know. It turns out they were on the take, or they became somebody that was corrupted. I think what I found out is that anybody at any level they could be a very strong, hard to get person right now, but. People get corrupted through their families through need. Mexico is a place where a lot of instability occurs. So financial needs health. So a crack could form through the wall of integrity and then over time it seeps in somehow. Mexico has a culture of corruption, like you know you have your kid that goes to school at public school and you want him to be in the morning not in the afternoon school. Time period so you go off and grease the wheels with the director of the school people hearing this in Mexico nod their heads because this is something that happens from early on. So there is a systemic there is a systemic and cultural thing to it you know as far as getting around rules and this happens because you know the people that are in charge in Mexico the government is. You know there there are tandem amount is trust between criminals and the cartels down there for a lot of the culture so people don't trust the government and much less criminality so. When you meet a person sticking on human nature, do you think it's possible to figure out if they can be trusted? So you said anyone can be corrupted. You know how long would you need to talk to a person, and even in your personal private life, just a friend, or is trust a thing that's never really guaranteed. I think trust is never really guaranteed. I know a lot of people are going to say that's a sad way and hard way of living your life, but you know life experience at my end. You know people change. You know the dynamics of a relationship might change. I look at people's character specifically their past and past experiences if I can. Somebody that presents himself in front of you as a somebody, but you quickly learn that that somebody is just a mask or persona that they kind of created for themselves. And they might not even be aware of the persona. Like is there some deep psychological stuff? Sometimes I've experienced a lot of a failure in my life. You can see it in my nose, you know. You can see it in my lack of a a digit, you know. The amount of you know the amount of failure you can see in somebody and how they wear them sometimes is a pretty telling thing as far as them being able to be trusted or that you can trust their story or their experience. And when I say experience, I mean I've met some criminals like former criminals or you know some some people of that background that I trust with my life, you know because they're not not reformed. But they figured out that that's not not a life they can live long enough to kind of continue on and. And I've also met people that are in law enforcement that I wouldn't trust with my car keys, you know because you know whatever persona they adopt adopted over the over the years. Is a pretty good one, pretty good mask. Sometimes such a good mask they don't even know they're wearing it. And on top of that, it's not just the psychology. There is also in your biology to it. I've I've been very fortunate and deliberate to surround myself with good people throughout my life. But I've recently gotten to sort of observe not close to me but nearby somebody that could be classified as a sociopath. Yeah. And and a narcissist, like I I don't want to use those psychological terms, but just I. It's like oh, people you know come with different biology too. So it's not just like the the trauma you might experience in your early life and all the deep complexity that leads all the deep complexity that leads to the the psychology that you are to have as an adult. But it's also the biology you come with the the nature that you might not just have the the machine that can empathize deeply with the experience of others or maybe a machine that gets off gets a dopamine rush from the manipulation of other humans. Or the control of other humans. Yeah, I mean, put an example of my my own background. My mom didn't have a father, you know. She she he left really early on in their in their childhood. You know my mom raised her two sisters. And basically kept a household. She was a great mom. She was a badass, you know. She was very independent. She showed me how to be independent. She showed me how to kind of watch out for others and kind of build me up in that way. And I had a great childhood as far as you know as far as her and kind of like how she molded me later on. I figured out that when I had my own kid, you know I I figured out that she was basically trying to make me into what she didn't have in a way. And if I can get to see somebody's parents, you know that's usually a that's usually a sign of of something at least for me as far as figuring out where people are. I think there is something to be said about nature and nurture and how some people come up. Some people are just born with that predatory instinct, you know, and you'll never know. I mean they spend their whole life practicing how to hide it. But if you can figure out somebody's you know background childhood where they're from, you can kind of tell something about them. You know I am from Tijuana, you know I am a survivor. That's that's my background as far as where I am from. Culturally, genetically, psychologically, the full shabang. Yeah, I guess some people are born with certain predispositions, and if they're in the right environment, some of the negative aspects might flourish more than others. You know for me, I mean I grew up skateboarding in Tijuana. And I remember breaking into my first backyard pool. It was a house that a cartel guy owned, and we used to skate the pool in the back in the back of it. So I learned how to pop open padlocks with a with a small vehicle hydraulic lift. And I remember doing that, and later on in life I got to train with people from other parts of Mexico and and work with them, and I remember pulling that trick off and they were like looking at me like, "Where'd you learn that? " Like some burglars in Tijuana, you know and they're like, "Wow, that's interesting. Like are all all people from Tijuana like that? " And I said, "No, we're not all like that, but I guess in some way we are because you know. Tijuana produces some produces kids like that. You know she produces like the environment itself produces produces a pretty specific person. I guess you know where our normal is our normal or baseline normal is way different than most. The trajectories that you can take in life are are defined in a way that aren't available elsewhere in the world. Yeah, and so you develop. I mean that's part of that psychological part of that is cultural and so on. Part of that is the cultural trauma, but then also the ethical lines based on the corruption because I grew up in the Soviet Union and there is the same kind of understanding that there is some gray area of corruption. Yeah, there is it's always there like on the outskirts or even in the center. How you can grease things to make things easier, and how it's like it's personal thing. I'll just you know pay off the in Tijuana we have a more dia is what we call it you know when you when you pay a cop off now more dia means a bite. So and what's what's the bite aspect? So you get stopped for for a traffic violation of some sort and the cop walks up to you. Obviously you don't say the word bite, but it's like it's like a slang term for it. And he asks for your paperwork and you know and if you get fined or get a ticket, you say, "Can I pay the ticket here?" Is what they say. And you know put your money inside the paperworking hand over to the cop. More dia, you think it's you know I am just going to do it and nobody knows you know but it's a systemic thing. Everybody like a lot of people do it and then they don't trust the police because they are fed with this. Yeah, I mean same thing was in the Soviet Union. It's funny, but then there is something inside you where that kind of those opportunities come like with a police officer where you realize you can just pay a little bit of money and get out of a thing. And then you realize you can pay a little bit of money or do a favor that get your kids in a bit of school or something like that. Yeah, but there comes opportunities where you where all right if if I do this little thing I can make. I can get a huge promotion. I can get a huge increase in my power or get a lot of money, and something inside you says no, it's not right. Yeah, and I wonder what that is that because like. Yeah, I want because it feels different than the legal systems within which operate. There is some kind of basic human integrity, human decency. I wonder if that's like constructed or it's always there. It's like again nature versus nurture. I think you know for me it was looking at at seeing that in somebody else that I kind of learned about it. There is a man that I consider a mentor figure. His name is Lieutenant Colonel Izalda. He was a lieutenant colonel from the army that basically came over and took over the group that I used to work with. He was you know incorruptible, you know he was a that that was the the essence or the the aura that he projected. The first time he the first time he went off on patrol when he was placed in charge of us, I actually you know drove him around Tijuana. He was one of those leading from the front type of people. The amount of assassination attempts he got was basically a proof of how incorruptible he was because they kept trying to pay him off and when that didn't work they tried to kill him several times. I think the last assassination attempt took the use of his legs. And that man is still a dangerous person in my mind, but for me and you know people can gather a little bit about my background and where I am from and some of the access I currently have to train the federal institutions here in the US as far as my background and if I was corrupted or not because there is a lot of that out there. Um, the the Catholic guilt that is kind of built into some of us is always kind of there, you know. The devil was under the bed, you know. So I I don't consider myself Catholic, consider myself culturally Catholic. I think is what what I kind of kind of say with that. I had a pretty good structure with my dad and my mom at the house and you know they never let me get away with things. And I think my mom was pretty a pretty big moral compass for me, but that lieutenant colonel kind of leading from example and seeing his work and how. How much profound change he caused in the people that work with him? As far as you know, we felt supported and we felt like we had a guiding figure during this. Tijuana was the most dangerous city on the planet when I was working there, and he took charge. What does it take to be a man, the lieutenant colonel, who maintains integrity after assassination attempts? Is it possible for a normal human to do that? Or again, is it genetic? That's an interesting question. I'll say this: seeing him, I mean last assassination attempt he had that took the use of his legs. He was with his kid. There was a recklessness to it, you know. I can see that now, like now that I have enough distance from it, I could see that there is a recklessness to being that way. And also putting jeopardy people around you if if you take that route. So I think there is a sacrifice to it a very powerful and hard one to make for a lot of people. For me, it was I wouldn't get picked to get on on board with some of the operations group that I wanted to work with because I was known for not you know taking money or not being trusted by certain older segments of the of the organization that I was with with stuff because they knew that I wouldn't you know I wasn't on the you know they I wouldn't get money. Um, so there's there's there's always a weird sacrifice to it, and you're almost kind of like masochistic in that way when you when you when you when you get approached with it, they're like, "Why are you being an idiot? You know, why are you why are you driving around that beat up car? Look at the Hummer H two that just drove in with the other guy that is doing exactly your same job. " Um, society society as a whole down there doesn't reward it or at least doesn't see it in the people that don't take that route in Mexico, you know for them is all cops are corrupt, you know all of them. And you know seeing it you know again from the outside, I'm not there anymore. There is you know there's almost like a why didn't you did you know? Um, it could have been easier maybe or you could have you could have been dead long ago you know because people that are on the take down there are usually owned by one side or the other and when that gets found out you know if you have somebody that you're paying off that hints you off of drug operations in the area. Your rivals are pretty keen on killing you. Money aside, so like like a Hummer aside, how much of a motivator's fear? It's a big one, you know. I I I'll say you know for me like I didn't I didn't think I was going to lift a C thirty, you know I was sure of it. Did that concept scare you? Was was that just a? That's actually principle of life. You're operated under. I lost my brother when I was 13 on a two like you know he was 19, he was like the the VIP of the family you know. He missed him all every day. He was a you know he was a you know skateboarded BMX motorcycle hunter one of the best marksmen that I've ever seen shoot. So better than you had everything. Yeah, he was the best of us is what we would say. And when he died, there was a there was it's almost like a concert at his funeral. You know I met three of his girlfriends that all introduced themselves like the the one you know. Yeah. I to this day every now and then I get pull the side down and when I go back home and they they are Eric's Eric's brother you know despite all the stuff that I've done I'm still you know every now and then I get recognized. Um, that made my mom and my dad go into a horrible depression and basically you know left me to my devices when I was a kid. Um, from 13 onwards, I had this self-destructive you know aspect to me after that I think you know so again something that's come up in therapy you know after I've been gone through all that. Uh, and had this notion that if I can only die good in some way, shape, or form, or for something that it would it would matter and they would kind of you know look at me with the same reverence I did my brother. So dying is in the problem. The goal of life is to die for something good. Yeah, at least that was my that was my mindset going through that job. I remember I was in medical school before that you know second year medical school was doing pretty good and then 911 happened and you know that wasn't an option anymore for me the economy was horrible. Couldn't afford to stay there, so I saw a sad in the newspaper and my brother's my big brother who's still alive and had he's like, "Not anonymous, you know you're not going to do that shit, you know we wouldn't dare. " And all of a sudden I was in a field having my hair shaved off and a bunch of the GOFs the guys that later turned into the Zeta cartel military were in charge of our training you know and I went through that process. In what field were you in? Why is your head being shaved? And what the hell was going through your mind? What was the leap that you took? I was sold the idea of this being a a new Americanized police force that they were constructing you know Mexico in Mexico. So elite, yeah, special force kind of prestigious elite the people in charge of our training were a lot basically Mexican GOF people GOFs are. What the special forces kind of originated a lot of their members turned into the the Zeta cartel so they were brutal in their training. We were sold this idea of it being you know scientific like educated based and like a career path and all of a sudden we're in this. Refurbished prison that wasn't good enough to be a prison and they turned it into a training ground. And I quickly kind of realized that they were training us to be a paramilitary group not a not a community policing organization is which in my mind that's I thought that's what we were going to be doing. What was the harder process of that training for you? Because this is like a a fragile innocent boy becomes a man kind of process. It's it's they're turning us into something that they could use so it's a breaking down. Uh, they break down the individual you know it's a physically and mentally. Yeah, I think it's a it's a it's a half done initiation process I think in a way you know looking at it from now to the past the. The shaving of the hair, the stripping off your identity. You know everybody gets a gets a a number, the uniforms, the running around and. And you know being treated like human garbage. The first thing they said to us when we were lined up in that field was a. Ipanera para comer aquí sacabol pan, which means there's bread and dig to eat here and the bread ran out a week ago right so. It was I mean I can equate it to anything in the military here in the United States because people down there could actually get physical with us I mean they could actually hit us and punch us and shit like that which is. Not allowed here anymore, at least in in in in most of the militaries and as horrible as down there. Um, the K-47 is being shot around us to to simulate reality, basically causing hearing loss that type of stuff. Um, so chaos, abuse, really challenging you. Yeah, again physically and mentally, and an open door there always. So if you don't want to be here, you can just walk out. And the more you go into it, time wise, you're more invested. You are so. In a way, you're kind of building your own chains while you're going through that process. Were you tempted to walk out? Yeah, several times, several times, specifically seeing some of the ways that people that I thought were better or stronger than me were walking out or quitting because of something that happened in there. There was some sexual assault stuff happening in there as well. Are you afraid of that? Always you know you're in a place like that and there's females in the in the environment and some of the instructors are doing what they do. So that was like a cause for alarm. I mean, these people are in charge of our safety and education. And look at what's happening here. So you could see some of the the smarter ones leaving you know not not looking at this as a viable choice for life. How did that change you that those few months? I had this motivation this idealistic motivation in my head you know of making a difference and they drill they drill a lot of. Nationalistic kind of you know the flag marching, it being part of a group and the group being you know behind you and all of this. What was the nationalistic pride? It was it in the nation of Mexico. Yeah, yeah. So what's the vision of this great nation of Mexico that you were? Did you believe? Did it get into your blood? I got into my I mean it's indoctrination you know it's a it's a paramilitary group so everything there is basically modeled after the military so that's what they were trying to kind of instill in us. I was a. I was a team leader in there after three months. Basically, I was we went through a bunch of trials, physical trials, mental trials and stuff like that and some of us were named team leaders. And I you know bought into it you know I'm the I'm supposed to be here look at me I'm I'm I'm making headways I'm I'm. I'm sticking out a bit you know and I was pretty proud of what I was going through there six months. Then you get the reality check when you signed a dotted line and how that none of it really meant anything as far as what we were about to go out and do you know. An example of this we were trained with a 92 FS Beretta which is a 9 millimeter pistol Italian made. We got to shoot 20 rounds out of that gun and then we when we got out we were handed a Glock 17 which. I've never seen one in my life. I was trying to figure out where the safety was and a few other people there were handling those guns in a horrible manner. So we were very under trained under equipped and there was a lot of assumptions about what we knew and all of a sudden we're being cast into this the start of one of the. You know, bloodiest and longest lived modern conflicts in our history that doesn't get called that, but it's it's basically been an ongoing war in Mexico that. That is still to this day, you know, amassing bodies. So the Mexican drug war, the Mexican drug war, which is you know it's hard to pinpoint exactly when it started because when I was going through training there was already stuff going on. I went into training in 2004 and there were already you know. Major cartel related events all over Mexico by then, but not at the at the size or scope as I was about to go into you know when President Felipe Calderon kind of took office down there and actually officially kind of kicked it off by. Putting the military in play as part of a as part of it basically militarized the the drug war you know including us. Who are the major players in this drug war? So the politicians, the military, the police force, the cartels all Mexican, then the United States, China. Just to lay out all the pieces on the board. First off, there are giant local drug markets in Mexico that are fought over. You know just local drug markets that are huge in scope. So no exporting to other locations. Just a start, yeah. Yeah, so a big a big problem in Mexico is basically those local drug markets and an example of that and one I have a lot of experience with is the one in Tijuana, which not only feeds the local populace but also feeds the populace from San Diego that crosses down into into Tijuana and buys their product there. Um and now you know phenomenon that's occurring now is marijuana trafficking is going from California down into Mexico because they produce better weed you know which is fascinating to see now. So there's already a channel and you kind of like reusing that channel. Yeah, there's not a lot of people and vehicles getting checked when they drive down and Tijuana is being called San Diego South now because you know all the economic migrants you know living down there. 90% of all houses in in Tijuana new houses are being bought up by Americans so that'll tell you something about the impact and change that's going on down there. So you have these local drug markets that are being fought over. You also have these drug routes that go through Mexico up into Mexico around Mexico through the ocean under the wall you know drug tunnels. Over the wall and on backpacks on migrants that go up into the United States. Not only do the cartels make money off drug trafficking, but also extortion, money laundering, paid protection schemes. You know any mining operation in Mexico will have to pay protection you know or else they'll get hit. A lot of times, money the the largest money makers for some of these criminal groups are you know protecting and taxing anybody that goes across the border. So that's also a big issue. And it's not just again some Americans think it's like the cartels you know they they imagine this single or maybe two or three groups there's there's several out there. I don't have a current estimate, but last time I checked, there was somewhere in the vicinity of 50, 70 different groups, some small that just dedicate themselves to a single little town somewhere. There are armed groups that are basically in control of that area to some bigger federations like the Cine Loco cartel, which is probably currently the largest and most powerful one in Mexico. And the new generation cartel, which is growing exponentially right now, so these criminal groups are are players in that conflict. Then another player that doesn't get talked about is politics politicians. There's a there's an ongoing discussion that has been going on I think since Trump was elected about cartels being a terrorist cartels being terrorist organizations or not or if they fit that description. Well, you know we are living through multiple assassinations on political candidates down in Mexico right now and most of those assassinations are motivated by one side sponsoring one candidate and the other side sponsoring the other. What I mean by sides I mean cartel groups. So they they have elected officials that are on the take and this is we have you know many governors who are under investigation on the run or in prison right now. State governors, so politics is involved in it. That's a big player as well. That doesn't you know when you when you think about the cartel problems you don't think well some at least some most people don't think about that aspect of it. So to have integrity as a politician in Mexico means. You have no protection and under constant threat of assassination. We just seen the arrest and prosecution of the head of all conre cartel operations when I was active in the form of Garcia Luna, who was the he was he was the guy Felipe Calderon who kicked off the drug war. That was his guy. Turns out he was. Turns out he was on the take at that level. Is there like a spectrum of how on the take you can be? Are there ethical lines you can cross? Some of it is money and then. Is it possible to operate in a gray area that does not result in destructive ethical violations? Deep ethical violations. I have no idea. I don't think I don't think there is realistically. I mean anything that kind of supports some of these groups, you know you're supporting things of a horrible nature. There I just posted recently on my Instagram account of a lady that was in Guanajuato. She's one of seven recently assassinated women that are looking for their kids. Basically, there's a bunch of groups and organizations out there in Mexico and some in Tijuana that I've actually walked with. Who are taking control of trying to find the bodies of their kids? That's her up there. Maria Carmela Vasquez, a mother who searched for a missing son, was shot to death outside her home on Sunday. Her son Ozmar Vasquez disappeared on June 14th. The 46 year old woman is the fifth mother to be killed this year while searching for their missing loved ones. She was a member of the Pinyamo Missing Person Collective. There's many groups out in Mexico who basically have given up on trusting the government to find their kids. Um, the number of missing in Mexico is a. Debated topic because you know the government itself doesn't release those numbers or at least hasn't done a good job about keeping them and or releasing them. Mexico was a country that has industrialized body disposal, you know, and Tijuana we had the stoomaker, the legendary stoomaker, which is a guy that basically. Used caustic acid acid to get rid of bodies at a massive level. So there's a separate operation for getting rid of bodies and murdering. At least at least in Tijuana we saw that phenomenon and it's it's obvious that it's it's going on all over Mexico. Who's having those discussions about mass murder and getting rid of people? I've been reading a lot about World War Two recently and there's was aggressive innovation on the Nazi side of how to get rid of large number of people because for the longest time both the Soviets and the Soviets were more brutal with this. It's literally it's a engineering problem of how you kill a large number of people and get rid of their bodies. So the Soviets were more into. Just laying people, laying people down into the grave face down and then shooting them in the back of the head and then doing that on a mass scale. So you just pile people on and then there was obviously innovation with the Holocaust in terms of gassing people and all that kind of stuff. I'm not sure exactly where these. Trade craft skills are coming from specifically. You hear discussions of Israelis training some of the cartel groups back in the late 90s, specifically the Ariano Fiasco cartel. There's a lot of stories about that. A security specialist coming down and showing them things like how to make caustic soda, um, how to put rocks inside of bodies and then chicken wire them around and throw them into the ocean or or river so that their bodies don't float. And when you kind of put rocks inside of body to make sure the body doesn't float. So you you open up the the intestinal tract, put rocks inside, you cut where tattoos are, you take off hands and faces and throw them somewhere else, and you wrap them in chicken wire. So making not identifiable. Yeah and throw them into a body of water and this is this this is a horrible thing but it it's a craft it's a trade craft it's trade it's it's trade craft and it's uh it there's there's a link to the US as far as that trade craft you have to remember that the United States had a thing called School of the Americas and and the CIA and they showed things and a lot of that. Stuff is out there in the hands of people that are of that generation. There's a manual. There's a manual somewhere like with chapters and it's like how to get rid of the body. There's manuals out there under time constraints or what what are how identifiable can the body be afterwards? What are geographical constraints all that kind of stuff. I think I think that was common back in the early 2000s and maybe the late 90s when some of these things were going on, but they've lost even that. As far as respect for the government or bodies being found right now, what you usually see is just bodies being burned to a crisp and buried in a field somewhere. That's usually what you see. Some of the groups like this this woman, this woman belong to basically taking upon themselves to go out to find clandestine graves in the outskirts of of the towns that they that they live in. Probing the ground with these metal probes and seeing if the the whatever they encounter in the bottom of these these clandestine graves stinks or not. If they find IDs or clothing, they kind of gather that and they basically presented to the investigated authorities in the towns or the states they live in, which basically they're doing their jobs. You know, over ninety percent of all murders in Mexico were never solved. I mean, it's so