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第 199 期·中文精讀

羅傑·裡夫斯：為巴勃羅·埃斯科巴與麥德林集團走私毒品

Roger Reaves: Smuggling Drugs for Pablo Escobar and the Medellin Cartel

曾為麥德林集團駕駛走私飛機的裡夫斯講述越境運毒的經歷、逃亡與牢獄，以及這段人生的代價。

羅傑·裡夫斯：毒梟走私往事··存檔文稿·精讀約 2.4 萬字 · 閱讀 52 分鐘
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中文精讀由 AI 基於原始訪談改寫，非官方翻譯，可能存在偏差或錯誤；表述以原音訊與官方文稿為準。說明

八小時的飛行，機艙裡裝 300 到 500 公斤可卡因，運費每公斤 5000 美元。落地之後，Roger Reaves（羅傑·裡夫斯）拿到手的是 150 萬到 250 萬美元。

那是 1970 年代末的價錢。他飛了幾十趟，覆蓋六大洲，買下過七個農場，持有過加州莫雷諾谷（Moreno Valley）整片城市用地的期權，做過規劃開發，買過世界上最貴的硬幣、遊艇、船和一堆飛機。

然後他在監獄裡待了 33 年。2020 年 4 月出獄的時候，他已經 78 歲。

Lex Fridman 問他，如果重來一次，你還會這麼幹嗎。

絕對不會。一點都不值得。33 年監獄，離開我可愛的家人，這些換不來任何東西。（Roger Reaves）

Lex 平時的嘉賓是科學家、工程師、作家。這一次坐在他對面的人，被法律定義為罪犯。Lex 在開場白裡把這裡的矛盾擺得很清楚：Roger 的罪名是運輸毒品，他本人從未參與過暴力。而他的老闆，Pablo Escobar（巴勃羅·埃斯科巴）和 Jorge Ochoa（豪爾赫·奧喬亞），既是精明的商人，也是手上沾滿血的殺人犯。

Lex 提到了幾組數字。1971 年以來，美國的禁毒戰爭花掉了 1 萬億美元。僅大麻合法化每年能省下並創造 137 億美元，夠 65 萬學生讀公立大學。還有 50 萬人因為毒品相關罪名坐在監獄裡，110 萬人處於緩刑和假釋狀態，人生被徹底改寫。

Lex 說，讀 Roger 的故事時，他腦子裡一直甩不掉一個念頭：社會想把這個人標記成罪犯、壞人，但外面有比他壞得多的人，我們不但放過，還給他們權力，讓他們坐進辦公室、管著公司。

他先是個菸草農場主，後來才成了走私犯

Roger 面對“你怎麼回應那些認為你加劇了世界苦難的人”這個問題時，沒有道歉，也沒有辯解，他直接把兩套賬擺了出來。

種菸草的時候，人家說，裡夫斯先生，來坐前排，你是位紳士，你剛加入共濟會，剛加入教會，來來來，跟好人坐一起。你種兩株大麻，滾出去，你這人渣。（Roger Reaves）

他給出的數字是：菸草在美國一年殺死 50 萬人，600 萬人因此患上衰弱性疾病。所有毒品加起來，一年過量致死 1 萬到 1.5 萬人，其中 60% 還是處方藥。

這個對比不算嚴謹，菸草致死是長期統計，毒品過量是急性死亡，兩者不完全可比。但它指向的東西是真的：合法與否，跟危害大小關係不大，跟誰在收稅關係很大。

Roger 在成為走私犯之前，是加州雷東多海灘（Redondo Beach）的消防員。他第一次動這個念頭，是因為聽說有人靠運大麻，一趟就能掙到消防隊兩年的稅後工資。他跑去問律師，如果被抓會怎樣。律師說，你沒前科，又在消防隊，最多判一年，實際可能就在軍事基地耙四個月樹葉。

他把這話原樣告訴了他媽。他媽問，你缺副駕駛嗎，兒子。

Jorge Ochoa 的桌上擺著 12 部電話，每部對應一座美國城市

Roger 第一次被帶進 Ochoa 的宅子，是去談合作。院子裡的鐵門開啟，院子裡有五十來號人在修一棟老房子的圍欄。有人領他進屋，一個極漂亮的女人給他們煮了咖啡，然後把他引到 Ochoa 面前。

桌上 12 部電話，每部一個顏色。Ochoa 跟他握手，說英語，很客氣，然後告訴他：每一部電話代表美國的一座城市。這部是芝加哥，這部是紐約。電話一響，他就知道是誰打來的。

問完機型和越境經驗，Ochoa 把那位女士叫進來，讓她去隔壁。門再開，Pablo Escobar 走進來。

Escobar 又問了一遍同樣的問題。Roger 反問，你們付多少。回答是每公斤 5000 美元運費。Roger 問，一趟裝多少。回答是 300 到 500 公斤。

Roger 在心裡算了一下：八小時航程，150 萬到 250 萬美元。

聽起來挺不錯的。（Roger Reaves）

Lex 追問，你當時不怕嗎？那可是這個世界上最危險的一批人。

Roger 說，一點也不怕。因為他知道自己一定會做到答應過的事。而且他太太 Mari 和孩子當時就住在當地一家五星級酒店裡，被招待得很好。對方只提了一個要求：確認他不是緝毒局（DEA）的探員。

這筆“人質保險”聽著刺耳，但 Roger 強調，他們從頭到尾沒為難家人，錢永遠是熨平的、捆好的，數目一次都沒錯過。

麥德林集團其實是一家保險公司

這是整期訪談裡資訊量最大的一段，也是理解整個毒品經濟結構的關鍵。

Roger 說，在 Ochoa 兄弟和 Escobar 出頭之前，麥德林每年要死一萬人。原因跟火併無關。他們缺的是組織。誰手裡有十公斤貨想運到紐約，就找個朋友，朋友說我認識飛行員，我來運。貨一旦被查，朋友只能說，抱歉，你那一批在新澤西被抄了。然後砰，砰，人死了。

Ochoa 三兄弟、Escobar 和 Gacha 湊到一起，做了一件事：開一家保險公司。

規則很簡單。你付我每公斤 1 萬美元，我負責把你的貨送到邁阿密的聯絡人手上。從貨裝上飛機那一刻起，到我交到你的人手上為止，中間任何一個環節丟了，我在哥倫比亞原價賠你。

這一下，沒人會虧了。風險從分散的、要靠人命來兜底的私人交易，變成了集中的、可定價的、有賠付承諾的商業服務。

我聽說他們靠這個保險計劃，在倉庫裡堆了 100 噸貨。而我從第一天就在那兒，所以我從來不缺活幹。我落地就問，你們要我什麼時候再來？回答是，先生，我們一直在等您。（Roger Reaves）

Lex 在這裡問了一個很好的問題：在一個暴力的、貪婪的、隨時可能翻臉的環境裡，為什麼這幫人反而不互相背叛？

Roger 的回答是，沒必要。

算筆賬就明白了。當時一公斤可卡因在美國批發價 5 萬美元，運費 5000。他們連貨都不用碰，只要安排人把貨裝上飛機，在邁阿密交給下家，靠行李袋上的標記分清是誰的貨，就能每公斤淨賺 5000。一飛機 500 公斤，就是 250 萬美元的毛利，而且沒有任何本金風險。

錢多到一定程度，背叛的邊際收益就變成了負數。這是 Roger 的解釋，也是他反覆強調的一點：這些人做生意的誠信度，比他在合法世界裡遇到的大部分人還高。

那個給他遞機關槍的人，後來炸了一架客機

Lex 問，Escobar 到底是羅賓漢還是殺人魔。

Roger 說，兩個都是。

他描述了去 Escobar 農場的那個週末。先是騎摩托，Roger 衝過草地，前輪掉進一條小溝，人滑出去二十英尺才停。Escobar 在旁邊差點笑到從車上摔下來，因為他們早就知道那兒有條溝。然後換馬，假裝去趕牛，Escobar 把一把 Mac 10 衝鋒手槍搭在他肩上，問他會不會用。

我心說，你身邊十個保鏢，你要我幹什麼？（Roger Reaves）

就是這樣的一個下午，笑著、聊著、趕著牛跨過樹樁。

然後 Roger 說了一句話，語氣變了：

後來我聽說 Escobar 炸了那架客機，死了那些女人和孩子，我後悔跟他握過手。那是謀殺。（Roger Reaves）

Lex 在這裡追了一個很細的區分：殺（killing）和謀殺（murder）不是一回事。他和 Jocko Willink 聊過戰場上的 killing。別人朝你開槍，你還擊打死他，那不算謀殺。但如果一個女人沒付錢，你派殺手去把她和她的孩子一起做掉，那就是謀殺。

Roger 同意這個區分。他說 Ochoa 不幹這種事，Ochoa 就是個紳士，開過餐館，腦子聰明，第一次賣十公斤貨的時候坐在停車場邊上的摩托車上，DEA 一進來就騎車跑了，從此再沒回過美國。至於 Escobar，Roger 的判斷是，他一開始確實想幫窮人，後來國家打成了三方混戰，軍隊、FARC 游擊隊、右翼準軍事組織各佔三分之一，你殺我的人，我就殺你的人，一路滑下去。

一個可以完全信任的生意夥伴，和一個會炸客機的殺人犯，可以是同一個人。這兩件事在 Roger 的敘述裡並不衝突，因為它們屬於兩套不同的規則系統。他只在生意那一套裡跟 Escobar 打交道。

第一次被擊中：13 天，第 13 天

Roger 在墨西哥佩奇林吉（Pechilingue）附近一條 900 英尺的土跑道上連著飛了 13 天，每天一趟。那是個窮村子，驢都餓得走不動路。他每趟付 1.7 萬美元收貨，然後飛到公路上裝車。

第 13 天早上，他胃裡有個聲音在說，今天別幹。他問了當地人 Joaquin，對方說聯邦的人全買通了，這一帶沒事。他在吊床上睡了一夜，天亮時走向飛機。十幾個人陪他走過去，Pedro 上了飛機。

他蹲在小溪邊刷牙，水一英尺深。發動，砰。他以為是爆胎。Pedro 在喊，警察，Roger，警察在這兒。

他把油門推到底。跑道不夠長，一半已經在他身後。時速剛過 50，他把機頭拉起來，襟翼放下。離地的瞬間，兩側的機槍同時開火。

擋風玻璃打沒了，汽油灌進機艙，整個世界變成黃色。一顆子彈打中他頭邊的支柱，碎片濺了他一身。他以為自己被打中了三次，其實只是擦傷。他以為升降舵的鋼索被打斷了，其實是飛機在失速，操縱桿發飄。

他關掉磁電機，切斷油路，把所有能關的都關掉，然後一頭撞進河床。

河裡有桌子那麼大的石頭，一路鋪上去，盡頭是瀑布。挺漂亮的一個地方。我就那麼直直撞上去了。（Roger Reaves）

第一次觸地，機翼飛了。彈起來，機頭扎進河床下面，他被震暈。Pedro 搖醒他，兩個人爬出水面，四個聯邦警察還在開槍。他從無線電頂上撕下那把一直用膠帶粘著的九毫米白朗寧，回了幾槍，警察躲進石頭後面。

兩人往山上跑。Pedro 的腳幾乎被打斷，子彈從腳踝一側進去，另一側炸開，因為休克幾乎沒怎麼流血。Roger 脫下 T 恤給他纏上。他自己腳趾甲打飛了，頭皮擦傷，膝蓋擦傷，腳裡還留著一塊彈片，很多年後還在。

他們翻過仙人掌坡，遇到一頭老驢。Pedro 認得它，是村裡的，摸了兩下，兩個人騎上去，沒有韁繩沒有鞍，跑了七英里。

到一個正在用一馬一牛耕地的小個子男人家裡。男人的妻子和女兒拿布蓋住傷口，往上倒柴油，防蒼蠅。男人出去了一整天。天黑時院子裡來了十五到二十匹馬和騾子，一個醫生跳下來，說我是紅十字會的 Benjamin Soso 醫生，給他們處理傷口，打了嗎啡和破傷風針。

他說，佩德羅不去醫院會死。他們正在找被擊落的美國飛行員，以為他死了。那架飛機裡血太多了。（Roger Reaves）

他們把他塞進一輛裝滿帶穗玉米的卡車，挖個坑埋進去，蓋上玉米。路顛，每次過土路玉米就把他埋住，他們再把他臉扒出來。到了公路，進一戶人家，換了衣服，用掉了二十多壺水，才把腳上的血和髒東西洗乾淨。

北邊的路封了，在找那個飛行員。他們只能往南。在馬薩特蘭找了輛挺新的計程車，司機願意送他去七八小時車程外的瓜達拉哈拉。後座用床單、毯子和枕頭把他墊起來，給了他幾顆很大的白色止痛藥。

我挺滿意的。（Roger Reaves）

第二次被擊中：DC-3、噴氣機和一片三英尺高的草

在哥倫比亞，他開的是一架 DC-3，載三噸貨。那天到得太早，游擊隊喊，快走快走。他飛回出發地加油，等到傍晚再來，這樣軍用飛機看不見他。

他在吊床上打盹，聽見一陣可怕的轟鳴。抬頭從樹縫裡看，兩架軍機正在垂直爬升，然後掉頭俯衝，用 50 口徑機槍把那架 DC-3 打得稀爛。

他衝向飛機。他剛給那個供貨的 8 萬美元，那人跑了。其他人也跑了。他本應該帶著錢一起跑，但他沒有，他跑向飛機。

副駕駛 Al 上來，後面兩個人也上來，飛機上還有給游擊隊準備的油桶。

起飛太急，起落架的保險銷沒拔。那銷子上掛著大旗子，不拔掉輪子就收不起來。兩架噴氣機圍上來，一直示意他往某個方向飛。他舉起雙手錶示不懂。他想，他們不會開槍的，以前從來沒人開過槍。

他繼續往前飛，越來越慢。噴氣機也越飛越慢，拖著黑煙。然後 20 毫米機炮從他下方開始往上打，曳光彈看上去像在朝他拐彎。他把機頭壓下去，讓對方沒法從下面打。後來他聽說，對方以為他想撞機。

一架去加油，剩下一架用 50 口徑把他的左翼尖打爛，又繞回來把尾翼打穿。他讓機上的人給他多弄點水，嘴太乾了。

他落在一片很大的牧場，地比看上去粗糙得多。機翼狂抖，停穩，跳下來把保險銷拔掉扔在地上，好收起落架，又起飛。

然後鑽進雷暴。噴氣機在外面等著，他每次衝出來，對方就開火。爬到兩萬英尺開始結冰。他最後一次衝出來，對方就在那兒等著，雷達鎖著他。他掉頭，把飛機蹬進螺旋，一路直下到 2000 英尺，從對方下面鑽出去。

沿著瓜維亞雷河飛，離水面 20 英尺，底下看著像牧場，全是草。他來回壓了幾趟把草壓平，感覺地是硬的。這架 DC-3 重三萬磅。第五趟，他放下輪子準備落地。

快停住的時候，他跟 Al 說，把腳從剎車上拿開。Al 說，我腳沒在剎車上。

他知道自己壓穿了地表硬殼。油門推滿，沒用。

那架大飛機就那麼一路沉下去，停下來的瞬間，頭朝下紮了個 90 度。發動機把它撐住，機頭全壓扁了。我們倆從兩個座位中間掉下去，才沒死。（Roger Reaves）

油正澆在滾燙的發動機上。沒有起火。他從頂部逃生了，拎著行李箱。後排兩個人，一個把拇指摔斷了，兩個人得把油管接起來，順著爬出來。

然後他在叢林裡走了 11 天。其他人沿路走下去，進了監獄。他說，我寧可在這林子裡爬半年、吃蛇，也不往那條路上走。

他一路問印第安人，dónde está avión，想偷一架飛機出去。最後走到一個地方，有機場，看著像二戰時的檀香山。他問這是哪兒。

人家說，你不知道？這是中南美航空宣教團（Missionary Aviation Fellowship）在亞馬遜的總部。（Roger Reaves）

當年他學飛行，就是為了當這種飛行員，把傳教士送進送出叢林。他們把他載了出去。

墨西哥監獄：辣椒、報紙包著的屍體和門縫下的空氣

這一次他先是被抓，沒捱打。

他在一個不錯的酒店泳池邊被人握手，然後上了手銬。起因是一個飛行員來 Hermosillo 看他，走錯了跑道，去了國際機場，口袋裡還裝著他的假名。

先關了三天，一間 12 英尺見方的屋子裡塞了 18 個人，桶滿出來。他想，這不對，馬上有人會來撈我，我什麼都沒幹。

三天後，他被轉進一個五英尺見方、12 英尺高的單間。墨西哥，六月底，熱。

第一次，他們把頭按進放了蘇打的水裡。他聞到那味道就掙開了，三四個人按不住。他學會了一招：在必須換氣之前那一瞬間猛掙，對方就會讓他抬起頭來。

然後是打。用警棍和橡膠水管，從腳底打到頭頂，黑紫黃三色。

他們要什麼？要他在一份承認是毒品走私犯的供狀上簽字。他們沒要他供出任何人，只要他籤自己的名字。他知道簽了就是六年。

他沒簽。

接著是更狠的一套。脫光，彎腰，抹上黃油，然後往裡面塞紅辣椒。

那玩意兒太厲害了，滾燙。還是很糟，真的很糟。（Roger Reaves）

他當時的判斷是：疼到極點會昏過去，我沒昏過去，那就還行。他說如果他知道對方打算弄死他，可能就不扛了。

最後一招，他們抬進來一個死人。凍硬的，用半英寸寬的報紙條一圈圈纏起來，像木乃伊。用肉鉤掛在牆上，對他說，下一個，狗孃養的，下一個就是你。

屍體開始化凍，看上去像在哭，像在尿，紙開始散，福爾馬林在地上一灘。那味道：腐爛的內臟混著福爾馬林。

門底下有一條不到半英寸的縫。他把臉貼在那骯髒的地板上，嘴唇湊到那條縫底下，吸外面的空氣。

然後睡著了。他看見了粉白色的長翅膀的豬，各種東西飛來飛去。

我醒過來的時候，分不清哪個是真的，哪個是噩夢。花了一分鐘才想起來我在哪兒、發生了什麼。（Roger Reaves）

Lex 問，那段時間你怎麼保持精神上的強度。Roger 說，我懷疑我做到了。他就是固執。加上一個判斷：他們不會永遠把你留在這兒，要麼把你轉進普通監區，要麼放你走。可你要是簽了那張紙，你就哪兒也去不了了。他想回家。

五次越獄，最漂亮的那次是從三樓的法庭窗戶跳出去

西班牙。法庭在三樓。他戴著手銬衝過審判廳，把窗戶踢開，往下看，在棕櫚樹上方，想找個電線之類的東西抓一下。什麼都沒有。旁邊停著一輛旅行車。

他跳了。31 英尺，砸在車頂上，車在街上炸開，擋風玻璃碎片飛過三四輛車，像下雪。

我看起來像唐老鴨，後面拖著東西，戴著手銬，然後我就跑了。（Roger Reaves）

他跑，被追上，一個警察用霰彈槍打在他背上，那塊地方到今天還是麻的。Mari 當時在場，人家跟她說，你丈夫瘋了。

他說呂貝克（Lübeck）那次才算真正的奇蹟。德國最高戒備監獄，馬上就要把他引渡回美國，那邊還有 25 年特別假釋等著。

他在律師會見室裡打掃，窗戶上是那種彎成音符形狀的裝飾鐵欄，間隙稍微有點大。他從一個做船的犯人那兒要了根繩子，只有 20 分鐘。他把繩子繞在兩根欄杆上，插進一根截短的掃帚柄，往一頭絞，把欄杆拉近，再往另一頭絞。

這樣只到了監獄內院，放足球器材的地方。院子旁邊那面牆正在換新窗戶，腳手架搭到四樓，有個凹進去的地方，而圍牆每隔 100 英尺就有個崗樓，會直接開槍打死你。

他貼著磚縫一手抓磚一手抓腳手架往上爬。鑽窗戶的時候襯衫和大部分衣服都磨掉了，皮全蹭掉，他以為自己要死了。

爬到屋頂，他有哮喘，沒帶噴霧，躺在那裡喘氣，渾身是血。

他之所以選這條路，是因為監獄正在往外擴牆，把崗樓上方鐵絲網全拆了，兩個牆要接起來的地方有個缺口。

然後他看見一個崗樓，半圓形的，裡面一個衛兵帶槍。這種人是被訓練成會開槍打死你的。

下雨。他在上面一層趴著，看見那衛兵的妻子帶著小兒子，兩個人撐一把雙人傘，從大門方向

走過來。他認識她。

她往回走的時候，他從上面跳下來，雙腳砸在崗樓頂上。然後又跳了三層樓，落在一堆挖出來的錐形沙堆上，腳陷到膝蓋，沒摔。

他朝她跑過去，這樣衛兵就沒法開槍。繞過灌木，下坡，身後開始響槍。

那個女人開著一輛大車追他，一路撞倒停車計時錶。

我繞到車後面，她為了追我把自己的擋泥板都刮掉了，衝我嗷嗷叫，那張臉兇得不行。（Roger Reaves）

監獄警報響了。前面一道牆，他跳上去翻，牆頂嵌著玻璃，手和胳膊全劃開了。落地，下面是一片農民挖過的爛泥，他陷進去，鞋丟了。但 Mari 之前往監獄裡給他塞了 200 美元，一直藏在鞋裡。

他去了荷蘭。

美國監獄和澳大利亞監獄：兩種完全不同的地方

Roger 說美國監獄是“可怕的、邪惡的地方”，現在尤其如此。西海岸他待過的每一所都是這樣，越往東到俄克拉荷馬反而好一些。守衛身上有恨意，而且招進來的人素質極低。

他講了個細節。他會西班牙語，走進西語電視房，裡面說，不行，你不能進來。他走到黑人區，人家說，滾出去，白人小子。他說，我喜歡你們所有人啊。他走到白人區，人家說，把材料拿出來看看，我們不接收告密者和同性戀。

聽起來很荒謬，但你在說的是最基本的人性沒有了。完全沒有了，在守衛身上完全沒有。（Lex Fridman 與 Roger Reaves 對答）

有個守衛衝他喊，裡夫斯，過來。他醒來，對方說，從我的臉前滾開，還把下巴伸出來，一副等他動手打碎自己下巴的樣子。

Lex 說，你身上有一種快樂的天性，這看起來沒把你摧毀。Roger 說，一點都沒有。

他的方法很樸素：試著享受每一天，不管在哪兒。每天跑步。有人問他，羅傑，你為什麼跑這麼多。他說，為了幫我忍受這些蠢貨。每天下一盤棋，一週讀兩本書，跟人聊天，聽故事。那些人會喊，羅傑，再講一個，講個你沒講過的，來首詩。

《肖申克的救贖》裡摩根·弗里曼有段臺詞：這些牆很有意思，一開始你恨它，然後你習慣它，時間夠久，你就離不開它了，這叫體制化。Roger 說他百分之百同意，除了計劃越獄的時候，他根本看不見那些牆。

澳大利亞的第一年多，他在隔離區。他描述了那種設定：五六個守衛隔著一面單向玻璃看著他。他是終身監禁，德國那邊還有一堆時間在等著。那大概是他唯一一次覺得可能永遠出不去了。

房間裡有一臺電腦，沒裝任何程式。他開始寫自己這輩子的故事。

我寫一行，又寫一行，在他們眼皮底下寫了一百多萬字。（Roger Reaves）

一年後他們把他放出來了，轉到一個叫 Self Care 的地方，關的是終身犯，一共 268 個人。四套公寓一棟樓，六個人一個單元，有自己的門和鑰匙，有廚房、餐廳、冰櫃、冰箱，每週給 360 美元買菜。他做了 16 年飯，手藝練出來了。他說那已經不太像坐牢，更像跟人合住，當然也有難處，也打過架。

然後他被送回美國。在洛杉磯下飛機，三個法警從澳大利亞一路押著他。剛落地就被摁在牆上，腳踝上監控器，手銬緊到把皮膚勒破。臉朝前，腿分開。走了五十步交給另一批法警。

這是邊檢，為了他 1977 年的大麻案子。他已經因為假釋違規坐了 11 年，現在他們還要追究更多違規。他被塞進洛杉磯的看守所，直接進了隔離。

三四天後，小觀察窗拉開，一個穿西裝的、看著挺體面的男人站在外面。

你好啊裡夫斯，我就是想看看你長什麼樣。我看了國家地理那部紀錄片，把你關在隔離裡讓我很愉快。然後他把視窗一關。（Roger Reaves）

按法律，美國假釋委員會應該在 90 天內給他開聽證會。Mari 花了 7500 美元請了個律師，那個律師一個電話都沒打。Roger 說有人找過他了，他不知道是誰。

他在隔離裡待了六個多月。每月一次 15 分鐘電話。然後是 Conair 轉運，雙重鐐銬，手上加黑匣子。到俄克拉荷馬，把他扔在地上。

幾天後才能打電話。那邊說，華盛頓來了個人給你開假釋聽證會，你 3 點 30 分才到，他已經走了，說明年再來。此時他已經關了六個多月。

最後是一個做案件管理的女士說，你可以書面申請假釋。他發了封郵件，第二天假釋就批了。90 天后轉到 Terminal Island，因為他 78 歲了，被分到老弱病殘區。輪椅、截肢、癌症。

他推著那些人到處走。有一次從食堂出來想去右邊理髮，兩個墨西哥裔犯人從他們中間穿過，做了個挑釁的手勢，說我能跑贏你。他被人摁在地上銬起來，關了一週禁閉。

出來後又被送回那個區。他又惹了點麻煩，再關禁閉，這次他不肯出來了。新冠正在裡面殺人，他那個單元死了八個。他連洗澡都不出去，用吸管接水，拿襪子蘸肥皂擦身，一杯水衝頭，再把地擦乾淨倒進馬桶。

我最後那一年在美國受到的待遇，比我在澳大利亞那二十年的全部加起來還差。（Roger Reaves）

2020 年 4 月他出獄。假釋官都不上班，一切影片辦理。他們警告他別喝酒。每週必須看心理醫生，他和那位醫生處得很好，是個虔誠的基督徒，兩個人就是聊天。每週還得交尿檢。

我說，我坐了 33 年牢，你覺得我這輩子尿過多少次？一次都沒髒過。（Roger Reaves）

飛機上換座位，旁邊坐著一個剛出獄的人

Barry Seal（巴里·希爾）。電影《American Made》裡湯姆·克魯斯演的那個角色，原型就是他。

Roger 認識他完全是巧合。一家人去宏都拉斯看農場，衣服髒了送洗衣店，回程時衣服沒取到，他讓 Mari 帶著孩子先去機場，自己去拿。到了機場，一架嶄新的 727 正在滑出去，他一眼看見駕駛艙裡 Mari 的臉，機頭一低踩住剎車，放舷梯，他跑過去，人家又把舷梯收回去，像攔車逗人一樣，再來一次。他上去了，全場鼓掌。他拎著一包衣服上了飛機。

他往機艙中間走，滿座。女兒 Miriam 當時九歲，坐中間，靠窗是個陌生人。他坐在 Miriam 旁邊。

起飛，起落架收起，噹的一聲。爬到五千英尺，又噹一聲。Miriam 問，爸爸那是什麼。他說，他剛開啟自動駕駛。

那人探過身來。Roger 看了他一眼，心裡想，這人看著像 CIA 或者 FBI，他不該在這兒。藍眼睛，紳士長相。

那人問他，你飛這種飛機嗎。他說，飛過幾個小時，先生。那人說我也飛，我叫 Barry Seal，然後隔著 Miriam 伸手過來握手。

Roger 完全不信。這是自由選座，怎麼可能正好坐在他旁邊。Barry 說自己當天早上剛出獄，以前是環球航空（TWA）的飛行員，然後講了一堆自己的經歷。聊了兩個小時到新奧爾良。

下飛機時，一大群人來接他。老母親、妻子、幾個小孩子掛在他身上哭，抱他親他。

我說，他說的是真話。我走過去，給了他一張小紙條，是 Mari 寫的地址。我說，巴里，我可能有活給你幹，來找我。（Roger Reaves）

Barry 是因為一架小飛機上裝了 100 公斤可卡因被抓的，在宏都拉斯加油時落網，服了一年刑。他之前還因為給古巴反共力量運炸藥在那邊坐過牢，丟了航空公司的飯碗。後來 Roger 才知道，他是 CIA 出身，是老布什的門徒，有一千次跳傘記錄。

一兩週後 Barry 飛到聖巴巴拉，在 Roger 家住下。Roger 有一架幾乎全新的 Aero Commander 690B，渦槳，他手上最快的飛機。

他說，巴里，來，看看你能幹什麼。然後他就後悔說了這句話。

爬到一萬英尺，Barry 像藍天使飛行表演隊那樣把飛機整個抖了一遍。Roger 說，夠了。然後 Barry 做了一個“落葉飄”：關掉發動機，飛機左右搖擺著往下掉。Roger 只在航展上看 Bob Hoover 做過，那是他見過唯一能做這個動作的人。他兩手死死抓著座椅，指節發白。

Lex 問，你怎麼解釋這個人，是瘋子還是有本事。Roger 說，絕對有本事，他知道自己在幹什麼。

他讓 Barry 把飛機送去加裝油箱，要求 2500 英里航程。Barry 說阿肯色州 Mena 有個人能幹，嘴很嚴。隨後他把飛機開回來，從防火牆往後全部重做，換了 Q-tip 螺旋槳。這種改裝是 CIA 在東南亞為敵後滲透開發的，Barry 飛過，所以懂。

Roger 僱了他。每趟付 100 萬美元，按每公斤 2000 美元結算。但 Roger 要等貨到芝加哥、紐約，錢收回來才拿得到錢，中間有兩三週的賬期。而 Barry 每趟出發前必須先拿錢。

他一點都不客氣。他缺錢缺得厲害。（Roger Reaves）

有一次 Roger 把 100 萬美元裝在一個大號公文包裡給他。Lex 問，100 萬美元有多大。Roger 說，全是百元鈔，不大，能裝進一個大公文包，正好 10 公斤。每張鈔票一克，所以錢可以直接稱，誤差極小。22 磅就是 100 萬。但要是全是一元鈔，那是一噸，2200 磅。那種錢他們根本不收。

Barry 為他飛了大約 30 趟。Roger 說，他們兩家關係很近。有一次在 Coral Gables 的餐廳吃完飯回酒店，房間沒了，Barry 就跟他們住一間。兩張雙人床，他脫到只剩條紋內褲和 T 恤，把嬰兒放在自己肚子上，餵奶瓶，一邊喂一邊說，嗯，好不好喝啊小傢伙。

我們笑得不行，聊天。我們就是這種關係，可以一家人擠在一個酒店房間裡。（Roger Reaves）

Lex 問，他是個好人嗎。Roger 說，非常好的人，南方紳士，照顧母親、家人、身邊所有人，所有人都喜歡他，臉上總掛著一點笑。

“我不能在阿肯色州 Mena 被抓”

Roger 後來被逮捕，判了 35 年。但 Barry 認識卸貨的人，所以繼續飛。

更早的時候有個細節，Roger 一直記著。他跟 Barry 說，在貝里斯有個點可以加油，1 萬美元一次。後來對方告訴他，其實可以在尼加拉瓜加油，直接飛完全程。Barry 聽了不敢相信，說好吧，但我要你落地。Roger 在路易斯安那有個點，1 萬美元，警長和所有人都是買通的。Barry 說，不行不行，我不能在阿肯色州 Mena 被抓。

Roger 問，什麼叫你不能在 Mena 被抓，在哪兒都可能被抓。

他說，我不能，但每次我輪子沾地，你得付我 5 萬美元。（Roger Reaves）

Roger 追問為什麼。他說他跟最上面的人有關係，還說，我今晚要跟州長吃飯。

那個州長，就是當時的比爾·克林頓。

Lex 在這裡保持了審慎。他說，這不能證明有罪，只能說明他們擔心陰謀論的殺傷力。Roger 的回應是，他為了讓 Barry 在 Mena 落地，付了 150 萬美元。

所以我相當確定，他在那兒不可能被抓。我說，我在哥倫比亞不能被抓，在尼加拉瓜不能被抓，看來我們有許可證了。那我們就幹吧。（Roger Reaves）

關於那部電影，Roger 說，原本要叫《Mena》，後來被硬生生壓了兩三年，連製片人都退出了，等到希拉里選舉的事有結果才放出來，而且改得面目全非。

里根出現在電視上的那個早晨

Roger 剛出獄不久，正在吃早飯，螢幕上出現里根的臉。

我們有絕對證據證明，共產主義桑地諾政府參與可卡因走私。（羅納德·里根）

螢幕上出現了那架 C-126，機腹朝下趴在跑道上。Roger 心裡一沉：他幹了。

那架飛機是 Barry 的。他們往北飛的路上，會在尼加拉瓜一個軍用機場加油，那個機場平時給農用飛機用，這樣航程就短了。那是 Pablo Escobar 和 Ochoa 跟尼加拉瓜方面談好的條件。飛機出現在電視上，說明 Barry 在給 DEA 遞情報。

電話響了。兩年沒聯絡的 Barry。

我今晚過來，Roger。（Barry Seal）

約在聖巴巴拉一家法國餐廳。Roger 推門進去，店裡二三十個人，全是三四十歲的女人，穿著塑膠裙、皮裙。他穿著牛仔褲。Barry 坐在最裡面，靠著椅背，胖了。

Roger 走過去問：巴里，你身上帶竊聽器沒有？Barry 說沒有。Roger 說，那我也不跟這些 DEA 的人說話。Barry 說，這滿屋子全是。

我說，巴里，你坐著，你就跟我說，夥計，你心裡想的是什麼。（Roger Reaves）

Barry 坐下來，講了很久。他被丟下擋槍了。

Roger 複述他的理解：Barry 有幾個 CIA 時期的老朋友，他們在假裝給尼加拉瓜反政府武裝（Contra）運武器。有這條線，回程就能整噸整噸地把可卡因運進來。Barry 開著小飛機，裝幾把 AK、一些彈藥送下去，交給對抗桑地諾政府的隊伍。Oliver North 在裡面。

然後事情鬧大了，那幫人全跑了，把 Barry 一個人留下背鍋。（Roger Reaves）

Barry 在尼加拉瓜的跑道上被拍到，一噸半的貨，機腹擦地落下去，裡裡外外閃光燈一片。他飛回佛羅里達的 Homestead，機上帶了一個特工。他去找了司法部長 Edwin Meese，被趕出辦公室。第二天他又去了，說我有確鑿證據證明 CIA 在往美國運成噸的可卡因。Meese 把他介紹給了那個特工 Jacobson，他們下去，把那一噸半弄了回來。有本書叫《Kingpins of Cocaine》，書裡有照片，能看見 Pablo Escobar 和幾個尼加拉瓜將領在現場，把貨從一架飛機搬到另一架飛機上。

他把手捂在眼睛上，眼淚從指縫裡往下掉。他說，羅傑，我做不到，我真的做不到再去坐三個無期徒刑。所以我全說了，我去國會作證了。（Roger Reaves）

然後 Barry 說了最關鍵的一句。我跟他們講了你的事，不過你在我的保護傘底下。你得跟我一起去邁阿密的大陪審團作證。

他們說，你可以明天帶著 Mari 坐頭等艙下來，或者我把你戴上手銬押下來。你要是不跟 Barry 一起作證，你這輩子再見到老婆孩子的地方，只有聯邦監獄的會見室。（Roger Reaves）

Lex 問，那場談話難嗎。

我的五臟六腑都像冰水一樣。我沒法作證指控我的朋友。我就是做不了。（Roger Reaves）

他去邁阿密找了當地最大牌的律師之一。律師聽完說，當告密者這件事，就像懷孕，要麼是，要麼不是。我不代理告密者。但你要是想打這個官司，60 萬美元我接。

我的臉一下就紅了。我說我不是告密者。他說，那正是你在談的事。讓我告訴你，你進去，說一件事，簽了那份檔案，只要你沒把你知道的全部說完，他們就會用你這輩子幹過的每一件事給你定罪。所以你幹不了。（Roger Reaves）

Roger 回去找 Barry，說律師這邊有麻煩，把名片給我。Barry 把自己的律師名片給了他。當晚在另一家餐廳，Mari 和 Barry 的女友 Debbie 都在。Roger 說：

巴里，他們會殺了你的，朋友。他說，不會，他們不會殺我，誰誰誰已經不在了，如何如何。我說，巴里，他們會殺了你的，你否認不了。（Roger Reaves）

他沒告訴 Barry 自己不去作證。他抱了他一下，然後帶著 Mari 和孩子去了巴西。

Lex 在這裡停了一下：有多少人能像你這樣做。Roger 的 11 個朋友全部作證指控了他，一個沒落下。他當時面對的是持續性犯罪集團（continuing criminal enterprise）的指控，可以判終身。他還是沒開口。

他也沒跟卡特爾那邊打招呼，沒這個必要。大家都懂。

他們在巴西北部的時候，他打電話去要那筆 350 萬美元的尾款。對方說，今天先給你 60 萬，明天再給你一些。過了一週再打，對方說：

好訊息，天大的好訊息，Barry Seal 被殺了。（Roger Reaves）

從卡特爾的角度看，這確實是好訊息。人死了，案子就沒了。Roger 掛了電話回到酒店，告訴 Mari 和 Miriam，一家人一起哭。

殺死 Barry 的人，Roger 認識。

那是他第一趟貨，落在香蕉種植園，下雨，泥地。他們把 300 公斤可卡因裝上去，然後塞進來一個他見過的、最醜的男人，叫 Ronaldo，手裡端著一把 Mac 10，任務是確保他把貨送到路易斯安那。

那天起飛後泥巴灌進輪艙，起落架收不起來。他 200 英里時速飛，本該 300。飛回哥倫比亞不可能，會讓地幹了得等好幾天。他告訴 Ronaldo 必須落地貝里斯加油。Ronaldo 把槍頂上來：不行，我崩了你。Roger 說，你崩吧，蠢貨，你也得死。

就是這個人，後來殺了 Barry Seal。Roger 說，他在路易斯安那服終身監禁。下令的是 Ochoa 家的小弟 Fabio，這個說法他也是聽來的，他覺得八九不離十。

《American Made》幾乎每個地方都錯了

Lex 問，那部電影哪裡對，哪裡錯。

幾乎全錯。錯得令人噁心。（Roger Reaves）

他說，寫劇本的人根本不知道 Barry Seal 是誰，坐在搖椅裡瞎想一個“抱著嬰兒砸人的毒販”大概是什麼樣。他們沒采訪過任何認識 Barry 的人，而 Roger 看到一堆從沒見過 Barry 的人，在鏡頭前大談 Barry。

他舉了幾個具體的地方。電影裡 Barry 從倉庫走出來那一段，就已經把人寫醜了。哥倫比亞那段，有人拿槍頂著他的頭，要搶他的墨鏡，然後他把價值 2500 萬美元的可卡因裝上飛機，旁邊還有人賭 100 塊錢賭他的飛機裝不下起飛。Roger 說，這純粹是胡編。還有 Barry 在天上跟 DEA 探員通話，同樣不真實，你根本不知道他們用什麼頻率。電影裡他有五架飛機，DEA 一來全飛散。

他們只想拿一些小細節聳人聽聞，好讓人記住。但那不是真的。那本來是一樁生意，好人，好飛機，好飛行。就像一塊做得極好的表，咔噠咔噠，一直走。他們把這些全丟了，非要把它弄得很難看。（Roger Reaves）

Lex 提到 HBO 的《切爾諾貝利》，說那部劇的歷史準確度很高，只有在極少數地方為了讓觀眾理解才偏離史實，但整體神韻抓得準。他說，你兒子說，這個故事也能這麼拍。

Roger 說，這個故事需要被講出來，而且要用正確的方式講，不是為了迎合某個角度。

1960 年代，湖邊，她穿著泳衣，他穿黑褲子、白襯衫，戴一頂草帽

Mari 是後來加入的。她講述他們怎麼認識的時候，Roger 就坐在旁邊，偶爾插一句。

她父母每年夏天都去加拿大那邊的湖邊度假，一個叫 Turkey Point 的地方，在伊利湖邊上。那年是 60 年代，她坐在碼頭上，跟幾個女朋友講自己的故事。抬頭，看見遠處有個人影往碼頭走來。

我們都穿著泳裝，在游泳、曬太陽。他過來，深色長褲，其實是黑的，白襯衫，打著領帶，戴一頂草編的巴拿馬帽。所以他很顯眼。（Mari）

她請他坐下來。兩個人聊了很久，後來挪到沙灘上繼續聊。第二次她看見他，他正在跟另一個女孩說話。她心想，行吧，下一個。

六個月後，她收到一封信。然後是漫長的通訊，那個年代，什麼都寫。第二年夏天他要再去，路上經過，說想來看她。她說，我還在去年見你的那個地方。

他伸手來握我的手，我也伸出手去。天啊，就是那一下。像愛在一觸之間。就是那種寂靜，我們甚至都沒看對方。天啊，發生了什麼。（Mari）

她說她本來是那種人，從來沒想過結婚，孩子是很遠很遠以後的事，她想先看看世界。但就是他了。

Lex 問，Roger 走私這件事，怎麼改變了你們愛情的性質。

它一直很堅定，它撐住了。Roger 回來以後，我覺得我們把當初剛認識時的那種愛又重新點燃了。（Mari）

她說靠的是信仰，還有他們一直在溝通，一直寫信。他從不抱怨。孩子是她一個人帶大的，去世界各地的監獄看他。她從沒被他虧待過。他好看，有魅力，愛冒險。她承認自己想他，身體上想，但他們精神上太強了，能跟對方說話。

Roger 說出了以後第一次見到她的樣子。他哭了三天。回去的時候她做了一桌飯，還是那張他重新打磨過的老橡木桌子，還是那些椅子，還是那些綠色餐墊，還是那套餐具，還是那套銀器，牆上還是那些畫。

35 年了，她把我所有衣服都洗乾淨，鞋都擦亮了。我把鞋穿上，走出去，鞋底就掉了，但襯衫全都合身。就是太好了。（Roger Reaves）

然後他看著她的照片，50 歲生日的，60 歲生日的，70 歲生日的，他都不在。她和孩子們的照片，看著心疼。第三天他跟自己說，行了，爺們一點。然後就不哭了。

Lex 問，你後悔嗎，後悔那些讓你離開你愛的人的走私。

後悔，百分之百。我當時已經有我想要的一切了。我做那件事是為了錢，可我本來就已經什麼都有了。（Roger Reaves）

Mari 講起第一次拿到錢的那天。Roger 第一趟掙了 1 萬美元，差不多是消防隊兩年的稅後工資。他把錢拿回家，她捂著嘴說，Roger，我不敢相信。他說，走，我們出去吃飯。去了他們平時常去的那家小餐館，他說，你不許看選單右邊那半，點什麼都可以。兩個人在餐廳裡樂得暈乎乎的。

她那時候沒想過後果。她說她當時覺得自己刀槍不入。他們抓不到你，你就沒事。天上抓人太難了。

我不知道朋友五年後告發你，你還是會坐牢。這個我當時不知道。（Mari）

她求過他收手。他說，Mari，現在不行。人也越來越多，家人、禮物、生意。錢總要找個去處，要麼洗，要麼投進某個企業，但都不成。人家知道這錢的來路，就把它吞了。每一個都這樣。

Lex 問，一段關係要成功，有什麼建議。

Mari 說，最初點燃的那一下就是愛，那團火一直燒，一直燒，你熄不掉。這叫愛火。但會很難。

她的另一部分答案是信仰，還有那些不管發生什麼都無條件愛她的朋友。以及孩子，那給了她明確的目的，把他們養大，愛他們，幫他們成為堂堂正正的人。

Roger 說他不太會講，但他知道一件事：關係是要下功夫的。他和 Mari 也會吵，而且吵得不少，但從來不讓它拖長。他們太不一樣了，又那麼相同。有時候是小事，有時候是大事，但他通常能把她勸過來。

Mari 永遠在那兒。像我的錨。我一直都在往家走。（Roger Reaves）

Mari 說她當然怕過。但她信他。她說了一句很動人的話：

我總是說，Roger，如果船要沉了，我要跟你上同一條救生艇，因為我知道我們能到岸。你能救我們。（Mari）

Lex 說，可對面是 Pablo Escobar，歷史上最危險的人之一，再加上美國政府。Mari 說，美國政府要可怕得多。

她七天後要做心臟瓣膜手術，十天前剛失去哥哥

Lex 問到她怎麼看待死亡。

她說她想過。她七天後要做心臟瓣膜置換，是個大手術，有可能下不來。十天前她哥哥毫無徵兆地走了。這兩件事擺在一起，很難不去想。

她怕，又不那麼怕。

我想活著，Lex。我想活著。這輩子很有意思。（Mari）

Roger 的回答是另一種東西。他說他有過一些景象，而且很清楚。他描述過一次：

我在一個門廊上，我覺得那是在中美洲。我是個老頭，穿著卡其褲和白襯衫。椅子扶手很寬，是直的，頭頂上有橫樑。我就坐在那個門廊上。（Roger Reaves）

他說他還發生過出體體驗：從身體裡飄出來，進到一層帷幕裡，進到霧裡。他說這可能就是原因。他談這些的時候用的是一種已經發生的時態，Mari 在旁邊說，這是他過去看到的景象。

Lex 追問，那這個宇宙裡到底在發生什麼。Roger 說不知道，但這是確實發生過的現象。他提到 Robert Monroe 寫過一本講出體體驗的書，還提到保羅·柯艾略也有過。

他說，人是一個活在肉身裡的靈。身體只是一個臨時的容器，靈沒有開始也沒有結束。他說這是他知道的，並非信念。走出過身體一次，你就知道了。

至於這輩子有意義嗎，他說：

這個“為什麼”超出我的理解能力。有某位比我大得多的存在。我不懂，但它很了不起。我現在只知道它很了不起。（Roger Reaves）

然後他話鋒一轉，說到這個世界的虛偽。他說，幾乎任何一個人都會說，哦，他是個毒販。可這些人裡的大多數都犯過通姦，那是大罪。他們卻朝我扔石頭，因為我運了大麻和可卡因過了一條路。

你把這兩件事擺在一起看，你會說，這差距也太大了。可我們被這個瘋狂的社會馴化了。（Roger Reaves）

女兒在監獄裡寄來的一首詩

Roger 在隆波克（Lompoc）最高戒備監獄服那 11 年刑，因為 1977 年的大麻持有違反假釋。他說按說該給 6 個月，給了 11 年，因為官方想要他，把那叫“沉默的罪名”（silent beef）。

在那間牢裡，他收到女兒 Miriam 寄來的一封信。他念了。

詩裡她說，一年前她成了詩人，因為給他寫了生日詩，現在她準備好再來一次。她感謝他，說沒有他，她不會成為今天的自己。她說他的支援是真實、誠實、充滿愛、沒有一絲做作的。她說他的愛超過了她所有的過錯，他總能用一首老鄉村歌曲讓她笑。

她記得在 Cuervo 河邊，他抱著她，唱 Jim Reeves 的歌，講農場的事。她記得他從遠方旅行回來走進那扇門，光是想到爸爸要回家了，就能讓他們眼裡帶著光。她記得爬上他的床，聞到他身上的味道，聽他再講一個他走過的冒險。

她記得她和 Mari 在他那些了不起的飛機上睡著，還納悶為什麼沒有多餘的椅子。她記得要去見他，擔心他不在，然後他從某個櫃檯後面冒出來，把他們全都嚇一跳。

她記得 Key Biscayne 的禮物，酒店裡的排場，還有他們走出機場時那三打玫瑰。她記得阿姆斯特丹行李轉盤前他的臉，他看起來像個揣著秘密、憋不住要講出來的男孩。

她記得他在遙遠的沙灘上教她數學，教她開帆船，然後他們不留痕跡地離開。他們在阿根廷爬冰川，看見洞穴裡那種藍，看見那種令人屏息的壯麗。她在巴西的土路上學換擋。他們在巴拉圭吃熱狗，到現在想起來還會笑。他們在烏拉圭的莊園裡聊獅子、大象和熊，最後決定還是去歐洲。

她說，歐洲那趟本身就可以寫成一本書，一個關於美、關於知識、關於懸念、關於世間財富的故事。從荷蘭到瑞典，從法國到西班牙，她保證她沒有一點遺憾，她願意再來一遍。

詩的後半段她說，後來路拐了個彎，他們回到美國，但這裡的生活也不壞，她挺滿足的，願意待著。她高興能離他近一些，雖然不如從前那麼近。因為他的愛和鼓勵，她開啟了新的門。她感激自己在讀書，她是真的滿意現在的樣子，甚至喜歡他打電話來催她複習下一門考試。

你給了我怎樣的一生啊，爸爸。這是一份巨大而神奇的禮物。（Miriam）

她說謝謝他，祝他生日快樂，然後說了幾件她心裡一直知道的事：她愛他，連同他所有的對與錯；他是這個家的頭，把這個家緊緊繫在一起；他心裡對上帝和全人類有一種誠實的愛；他說一切都會好的時候，他是真的相信自己說的。

她說她知道，如果她哪天晃了一下、滑了一下，他一定會在那兒接住她；她知道任何一艘要沉的船上，她都想要他當船長。

她說，新的篇章已經寫下了，差不多該往前走了，該去航行另一片海，去看一個新的黎明。她想再看到他在舵位上，指出方向，在船劃過水麵的時候在頂層甲板上笑、跳舞。

她說，在享受這些共處的日子的時候，他們會記得不要著急，因為就像他跟她講過很多次的：

生命是一段了不起的旅程。（Roger 常對女兒說的話，由 Miriam 寫進詩裡）

Roger 唸完，Lex 說，太美了。

這期訪談到底在問什麼

Lex 在開場白裡說過一段話，值得原樣保留下來。他說，我們有時候崇拜殺人犯，卻毀掉善良誠實的人；我們給腐敗的政客和獨裁者權力和金錢，那些人讓本國人民捱餓、被殺。既然如此，什麼算是好人，什麼算是壞人，誰來定。

他坐在 Roger 對面，看到的是一個複雜的人，一個心裡有善意的人，一個愛錢也愛冒險的人，一個厭惡暴力的人。

Roger 自己給出的說法是這樣的：

我不覺得自己算個多壞的罪犯。我不撒謊，不騙人，不偷東西。我總是站在弱勢的一方。暴力讓我噁心。可我知道我是個法外之徒，而犯法的人必須受罰。（Roger Reaves）

這句話裡有矛盾，他自己也清楚。他不否認運輸毒品是犯罪，他只是不接受這件事被擺在道德序列的最底端，而菸草、處方藥、戰爭、腐敗、通姦都排在它上面。

有一個細節很能說明他這個人。他在監獄裡給犯人縫傷口，大家叫他“醫生”，用牙線，有一次得找一片刀片。他說他這輩子開過槍，但都是為了不讓對方殺死自己，他從沒想過要殺人。禁閉區裡有三個人捅另一個人，捅了很多刀，血從門縫底下流出來。他喊，你們要把他弄死了，把他抬到守衛能看見的地方去。

他說，有些人天生就是惡的。他不是那種人。

Lex 在結尾把這句話還給了聽眾：監獄裡基本的人性沒有了，這件事讓人難過，因為那種基本的人性其實正是隧道盡頭的光，是拯救我們的東西。它不在了，就是毀掉我們的東西。

Roger 對監獄有一套很具體的改革想法。他說監獄裡塞滿了一定程度上精神有問題的人，而一個想揚名的 DEA 探員下去，找兩個人，讓其中一個把兩克冰毒賣給另一個，就拿到一個定罪。一個想當法官的年輕檢察官，靠這個拿到一個定罪。這類人掌了權，監獄就會塞滿可憐人。

他的方案是：把偷東西的年輕人判去學一門手藝。我們需要木匠、水管工、電工、焊工。判他去學，學出個 A+，出去一小時能掙 30 到 50 美元，就放他回家。想混十年是你的事，兩年學完也是你的事。

毒品那塊，他的立場是應該按健康問題處理，不是刑事問題。他說給一個重度成癮者提供一天的劑量，成本大約一美元。可他們偏要給美沙酮，那玩意兒來自制藥公司，一樣糟糕。葡萄牙和英國都試過了。他說，把那些女孩清理乾淨，偷車的案子就少了。為什麼還要維持這場鬧劇，因為每個小警察局都在拿防彈衣、裝甲和機槍。

他多次重複一句話：毒品應該按健康問題處理，按刑事問題處理永遠治不好。他的說法是，一個成癮者應該能走到某個地方，拿到他那份劑量，旁邊有人遞給他一支幹淨的針頭、一杯橙汁。這比關進監獄便宜得多，比他去偷車、比一個妓女不得不出來接客便宜得多。他說，這挺讓人難過的。

給一個普通人，他會說什麼

Lex 問，對那些還在讀高中、讀大學的年輕人，你會給什麼建議，怎麼活，怎麼有一份好事業，怎麼成為一個好人。

Roger 的回答出人意料地平實。他說如果重來一次，他會好好聽課，好好唸書，盡他所能往上讀。他說他本來想當醫生，只是沒有那個定力，也沒有人在旁邊推他一把說，往那邊走。

然後他說，如果你能在很早的年紀學一門手藝，那就去學。不管是什麼。只要你把一樣東西學精了，需求大得很。

關於做人的部分，他說得很簡單：找一個人，對那個人忠誠，這輩子誠實、真實。

他補充了一段他看到的現實。太多孩子來自不想要他們的關係，父母離了婚，父親走了，不知道爸爸是誰，就在寄養系統裡轉。今天美國有 50 萬孩子在寄養家庭裡。他女兒是醫生，幾年前接生了一個 10 歲孩子生下的嬰兒。她說候診室裡坐著四代人，全都在領福利。又多了一個。

他說這讓他想起貓王那首《In the Ghetto》。

所以對一個人來說，能做的事是這些：學一門手藝，成為一個匠人；找一個人去愛，也愛你的那個人；組建家庭，守住它。肯定會生氣，肯定會失望，什麼情緒都會有，但睡覺之前要和好。

Lex 在旁邊笑了，說，這些我做到了一半，第一件做到了，第二件還在努力。謝謝你。

他怎麼解釋自己“和別人不一樣”

訪談中間有一段，Lex 問了一個挺軟的問題：你這一生這麼多事，你覺得意義是什麼。

Roger 沒有正面回答，他講自己小時候。他說他弟弟手上乾乾淨淨，鞋擦得亮亮的。他自己光著腳，去抓野豬，騎著馬套牛。

Lex 說起看過他出獄後爬樹的照片。Roger 說，他一出獄就幹這種事，一直是這樣的。

他講了一個細節。有時候監獄裡發生持刀鬥毆，一些很粗壯的漢子看見會嚇得臉發白。他的反應幾乎是笑一下。他說，如果真有人衝他來，他也會臉發白、也會跑開。但那些場面本身嚇不到他。坐牢這件事也嚇不到他。

我不知道。我可能就是有點怪。（Roger Reaves）

Lex 接了一句挺有意思的話。他說，也許整件事的重點就在這裡：你要讓那種瘋狂、那種獨特性活出來，讓它徹底展開。這就像一座花園，各種不同的花。

這段話是給聽眾的，同時也是說給 Roger 聽的。一個 78 歲的老人，一輩子做的事在大多數人眼裡是錯的，坐過 33 年牢，還坐得挺直。Lex 沒有評判他，他把評價權交回給了觀眾。這種處理方式是這整期播客最穩的地方。

錢、權、冒險，還有那些他真正承認的東西

回到訪談最開始那個問題，Lex 問，是什麼驅動你。錢、權力、刺激，還是別的。

Roger 只回答了一個字：錢。

Lex 追問，是不是有個點，你擁有的錢已經多到你不知道怎麼花了，還是永遠想要更多。

Roger 的比喻是拉斯維加斯的老虎機。

就像你站在拉斯維加斯，老虎機中了大獎，金幣從機器裡嘩啦啦往外倒，你手裡拿著掃帚和袋子往裡掃。你什麼時候會停手？（Roger Reaves）

Lex 又問，那裡面是不是有一部分其實是刺激感。Roger 承認，刺激很多，有時候太多了。

錢能買的東西，他都買了。七個農場，莫雷諾谷那片地的期權，規劃、開發，世界上最貴的硬幣，遊艇、船、成堆的飛機。

Lex 問，那讓你快樂嗎。

不。完全沒有。事實上我覺得我現在更快樂。我知道我現在更快樂。（Roger Reaves）

權力那部分，他講得挺具體。他說那種感覺是站在世界頂端，政府、警察、那些龐大可怕的機構全在追你，而你愛幹什麼幹什麼。但另一邊，你走到哪兒都得回頭看一眼，打任何電話之前都得確認自己身邊安全，他甚至開玩笑說，得先跟某個人在海里光著身子才能說話。這挺不舒服的。

Lex 說，我打電話也是這個習慣。

這一段的笑點在整期訪談裡很珍貴。它在提醒你，坐在對面這位老人並不是在炫耀什麼，他只是在回憶一段早就結束的人生，而且他記得那裡面不舒服的部分。

那架飛在天上的時間

訪談裡穿插著好幾段飛行。Roger 講第一次運大麻，用的是塞斯納 182，飛去墨西哥的哈拉帕（Jalapa）。那是個老鎮子，看著像聖經時代，女人在街上用石盆洗衣服，溪水從中間穿過。他進了一座天主教堂，苦路像全是雕出來的，他從沒見過，回去跟 Mari 講，幾乎哭了。

凌晨三點他去機場，滑行到滑行道，一個衛兵出來問他幹什麼。他掏出錢包，裡面是加州雷東多海灘消防隊的證件。衛兵跟他握手，很高興。他滑過去，裝了大概 400 磅，起飛往北。

那趟他第一次也是唯一一次得了空間定向障礙（vertigo）。山以三四十度的角度壓下來，銀河在頭頂，他不知怎麼的想讓飛機跟星星平行。風向頂頭，他飛不到預備加油的幹湖，只能落在一條很小的跑道上。

那兒有座塌了的房子，一個六七歲的小男孩在放羊，叫 Lazarus。他們把大麻放進房子，留一個人看著，他飛去附近鎮上加油，回來帶了午飯，三個人一起吃。然後裝貨，回家。

不知道那孩子現在在哪兒。（Roger Reaves）

他講了很多飛行技巧的細節。比如，絕大多數飛行員犯的一個錯誤，是過邊境的時候不去辦許可。你在墨西哥拿到一份許可，管六個月，去哪兒都行，漁村、小鎮、任何地方，出示一下，人家歡迎你。沒有那份東西，直接進監獄。所以他每次下去都辦。

回來那幾年，他會在 Mexicali 上空飛，緊貼著 Calexico 過境，裝作要在 Calexico 降落，天一黑就橫穿邊境，飛到 Salton Sea 上方，降到海平面以下一百七十英尺，再拉起來，越過棕櫚泉，落在沙漠裡的 29 Palms，把貨藏在一棵約書亞樹下，飛到鎮上開皮卡回來取。

後來危險了。有個叫“星光行動”（Operation Starlight）的執法專案，抓了很多過境的飛行員。他換了路線。改飛比奇 18（Beech 18），在 Baja 半島中部的 Mulegé 加油，然後飛去內陸、離最近公路 20 英里的一個山羊農場，那兒擠羊奶做乳酪。他落地卸貨，一個叫 Juan 的人把大麻藏到樹下，他飛到 Mulegé，人家給他洗飛機、加油，他吃頓午飯、租個房間睡幾小時洗個澡，下午再回去裝貨。

然後往西北飛，飛出瓜達盧佩島 200 英里，再往西北偏 300 英里飛到太平洋上空，然後壓低高度從聖巴巴拉群島後面繞進來，再爬升，飛進沙漠落地。

Lex 問，這些航線最難的地方是什麼。Roger 說，最難的是收到好大麻，飛行本身不難，跟開車一樣。難的是別人給你找的跑道配不上一架飛機。雨季回去再降同一條公路，那人根本沒想過，公路兩邊長了小土包，機翼張得那麼開，草和灌木長高了，機翼刮過去，聲音聽著像飛機在被撕開，一路把兩邊的草都割了。熱帶草長得高。還有給你加劣質汽油的，還有告訴你晚上落這兒，結果落地把輪子磕掉的，還有說“先生你該再往前落一點，這兒有個坑”的。

Lex 問，什麼時候要在公路上降落。Roger 說，他大半輩子都在公路上落。墨西哥第一次下去，那個叫佩奇林吉的地方只有 900 英尺跑道，裝貨以後太短，起不來。當地一個叫 Pedro 的年輕人，體重也就一百來斤，跟他上飛機，帶他飛二三十四十分鐘去一條公路。地面上的人開一輛兩噸卡車過來，車上架著機槍，一幫帶槍的人，把路封了，再往前一英里再封一道。他正好從卡車上空落下去，一幫人像傳水桶一樣把大麻傳上來。他跟每個人握手，起飛時正好從另一隊卡車上空過去。有時候路上一排停著二三十四輛車。有一次他記得有輛公路巡邏車，沒開警燈，他正好從它上空起飛。

後來飛路易斯安那，密西西比河上那座橋，幾個承包商破了產，橋修了好幾年沒修好。離河五英里有個閃紅燈的繞行標誌，兩邊是沼澤，中間長起二十英尺高的樹。那條路對任何地方的飛機來說都像一條國際跑道。他就落在那兒，來來回回，那些紅燈就像跑道盡頭燈。第二天早上他們出去，趁著天亮前把他降落時在路面上留下的輪胎印擦掉。

他還講過一次跟 Ochoa 抱怨跑道太短。他說，我下一週回去，那兒看著像洛杉磯國際機場。推土機已經在裡面了，五千里長，叢林沒了，黏土鋪上去，一週就幹完了。

Lex 說，你在那兒一點不怕，被當貴賓對待。Roger 說，在那兒是。落地美國才怕。

十二部電話、兩趟貨、一堆錢

關於那套運作方式，Roger 講得很清楚。他飛到 El Banco，那是馬格達萊納河分叉處的一個地方，有一個電臺，他記得是 720 千赫，中波。他在一萬英尺高度飛進去，往下看有一架塞斯納。他跟著它落下去，落在叢林裡的某條跑道或者某個香蕉種植園。加滿油，晚上能吃上牛排。第二天早上想什麼時候走就什麼時候走。他說那是一種受保護的狀態，他是貴賓。跟電影裡那種拿槍頂著頭、搶你墨鏡、還跟你打賭完全不是一回事。

Lex 問過一句，說哥倫比亞那麼暴力，你怎麼活下來的，誰保護你。Roger 的回答是：我是個英雄，他們喜歡我，我被當貴賓對待。

他還講了一件事，解釋為什麼這些人在內部不背叛。他說他沒見過任何一次背叛。卡爾洛斯（Carlos Lehder）後來在巴哈馬那一帶搞路線，Roger 被邀請過用 DC-3 飛那條線，他不喜歡，沒去。Carlos 話很多，他不知道 Carlos 有沒有背叛過誰，但那幫人不喜歡他。

這一整段在解釋一個在大多數人看來反常識的事實：在一個暴力的、非法的、隨時可能死人的行業裡，最頂層的幾個人反而比合法世界裡很多生意人更守信用。守信用在這裡是一種商業資產，破壞它的代價太高。

一臺只會顯示一切的機器，和一次掉下來

訪談裡還有一些更私人的東西。Roger 說他有過一些對未來的“景象”，清楚得像他們正坐在這裡。他描述過一次：一個門廊，他覺得自己在中美洲，他是個老人，卡其褲白襯衫，椅子扶手寬而直，頭頂有橫樑。他說他還有過出體體驗，從身體裡飄出來，進到一層帷幕、一層霧裡。

Lex 沒有順著這個走下去，也沒有否定。他問的是這個宇宙裡到底在發生什麼。Roger 說他不知道，但現象是存在的。他提到 Robert Monroe 那本講出體體驗的書，也提到保羅·柯艾略寫過自己的經歷。

他的結論是：人是活在肉身裡的靈，身體只是一個臨時的容器，靈沒有開始也沒有結束。他說這是他“知道”的事，並非“相信”。走出過身體一次，你就知道了。

至於生命的意義，他說超出他的理解能力，有某位比他大得多的存在，他不懂，但那很了不起。總有一天他們會越過那道界線，那時就會明白。他引用了一句經文：我們現在對著鏡子看，看得模糊，將來面對面，就全知道了。在那之前，享受這段美好的生命。

他說完這段，緊接著就轉到了那個關於虛偽世界的話題。菸草農場主和兩株大麻的對比。兩件事在訪談裡是連著的：一個人怎麼看待自己的靈魂，和他怎麼看待這個世界的評判標準。

Lex 在結尾說了什麼

訪談快結束時，Lex 說了一段很像他本人風格的話。

他說 Roger 是他見過的、最像陀思妥耶夫斯基《白痴》裡梅什金公爵的人之一：在所有人身上尋找善，偶爾因此受傷，也許最後因此被毀掉。他說他不天真，但他樂觀，對人類存有希望。他說這就是他，這就是這些對話。他希望聽眾明白，他是從愛出發的。

這段話放在一個被法律定義為罪犯的人面前，聽起來有點冒險。但 Lex 從頭到尾沒有為 Roger 開脫，他也沒有審判他。他把這兩個動作都留給了聽眾。他做的是一件更費勁的事：把一個人的全部攤開，包括那些讓人不舒服的部分。

節目最後，他放了一句 Pablo Escobar 的話：所有帝國都是用血與火建起來的。

這句話放在結尾，是一種提醒。它解釋了為什麼一個每公斤收 5000 美元運費、講信用、錢捆得整整齊齊的“保險公司”，底下壓著的是一年一萬具屍體、一架被炸掉的客機，和一個在尼加拉瓜跑道上被拍到、最後在車裡被打死的中年人。

Roger 從來沒有親手參與過那些暴力，他為此慶幸，也為此被輕判過、被重判過、被關了 33 年。他對這一切的解釋只有一句：為了錢，而我本來就已經什麼都有了。

他最後說的一句話很輕。他說他一輩子愛所有人，愛他做的每件事。如果他在誰的路上放過一塊絆腳石，他不想這樣。他和 Mari 坐在那裡，Lex 說謝謝你們來。Mari 說，這是我們的榮幸。

  • 把“合法”和“有害”分開想。Roger 那個菸草農場主與兩株大麻的對比並不嚴謹，但它提醒你，一件事的合法地位往往反映的是誰在收稅、誰在定規則，傷害本身並不是主要標準。判斷風險的時候，先看傷害。
  • 警惕“只要不被抓就沒事”這個演算法。Mari 當年就是這麼算的，她不知道朋友五年後的一句口供，能把人送進去 11 年。任何一件事的代價，要按最壞的時間尺度去算，而不是按最好結果出現的那一天。
  • 別把“可靠”當成“好人”。Roger 對 Escobar 和 Ochoa 的評價是：在生意上完全可信，錢一分不錯。但同一批人會炸客機。合作物件的履約能力和道德底線是兩套獨立的引數，籤合同的時候看前者，託付後背的時候看後者。
  • 任何生意，把風險集中定價，就能做大。麥德林那幾個人沒有發明新東西，他們只是把分散的、靠人命兜底的風險，變成每公斤 1 萬美元的保險。這是整期節目裡最實用的一條商業洞察。
  • 學一門手藝，越早越好。這是 Roger 用 33 年換來的答案，也是他給年輕人最直接的一句：把一樣東西學到 A+，需求大得很。
  • 找一個人，對那個人忠誠，睡前和好。他和 Mari 分開 35 年，她給他留著那張打磨過的老橡木桌、同一套綠餐墊、同一套銀器、同一牆的畫。這些東西不值錢，但它們是那段關係活著的證據。
文稿來自公開 Kaggle 資料集（rajneesh231/lex-fridman-podcast-transcript），為早期自動轉錄存檔，可能存在識別錯誤。
The following is a conversation with Roger Reeves, one of the most prolific drug smugglers in history. He worked for Pablo Escobar and Jorge Ochoa, the leaders behind the Medellin Cartel. Roger was the employer and close friend of Barry Seal, the infamous drug smuggler who was the main character in the movie American Maid. Roger transported countless tons of cocaine and marijuana covering six continents. He escaped prison five times, was shut down in both Mexico and Colombia, and was tortured nearly to death in a Mexican prison. Through all of this, his wife Mari, the love of his life, was there with him, and when he was in prison, she waited for him. He recently got out of prison where for many years he worked on his memoir called Smuggler. This podcast is an exploration of his story. Quick mention of our sponsors. Noom, Allform, ExpressVPN, Four Sigmatic, and Aidsleep. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. Let me say a few words about Roger Reeves, Pablo Escobar, and the war on drugs. This conversation with Roger is unlike any I've ever done. In the eyes of many, including the law, Roger is a criminal, a bad man who was added to the suffering in the world. But he never directly engaged or participated in the violence. Unlike his bosses, Pablo Escobar and Jorge Ochoa. His crime was the transport of drugs. I thought about this, and about Pablo Escobar, who was at once both a brutal murderer and a Robin Hood figure who helped the poor and was loved by thousands, if not millions. We sometimes idolize murderers and destroy good, honest men. We give power and money to corrupt politicians and dictators that starve and murder their own people. Given this, I think about what makes for a good man, and what makes for a bad man, and who decides. Sitting across from Roger, I saw a complicated man, but one who has kindness in his heart, a love for money and adventure, and a disdain for violence. Again, his crime was the transport of drugs. Since 1971, the war on drugs has cost U.S. $1 trillion. Marijuana legalization alone would save and make $13.7 billion, that could send more than 650,000 students to public universities every year. Then there's the human stories of the 500,000 human beings sitting in prison for drug related offenses, and the 1.1 million on probation and parole. Their life is damaged or ruined beyond repair due to the prohibition of drugs. There's a lot more to be said about the damage done by the war on drugs, but when reading about Roger's story and talking to him, I couldn't escape the thought that while society wants to label him a criminal and a bad human being, there are much worse men out there who we give a pass to, even give power to, even men who hold political office or run companies. I also think about my role as an interviewer, sitting across a man like Roger. In these interviews, in life, in many ways I continue to be myself, a person who like Dostoyevsky's The Idiot, seeks the good in all people, but is hurt by it on occasion, and maybe is destroyed by it in the end. I'm not naive, but I'm also optimistic and have hope for humanity. That's who I am, and that's what these conversations are. I hope you join me, and I hope you understand that I come from a place of love. This is the Lex Friedman Podcast, and here's my conversation with Roger Reeves. You are one of the most prolific drug smugglers in history. What would you say motivated you? Money, power, the thrill, or was it something else? Money. But isn't there a point where you've had more money than you can possibly know what to do with, or is it always more money? You know, I had plenty of money several times, and I think it's sort of like if you was in Las Vegas and you had the slot machine handled down, and the gold coins was tumbling around you, and you had sweepers bagging them up, when would you let it go? But isn't some part of that the thrill then? Oh, there was a lot of thrill, sometimes way too much. You made certainly tens of millions of dollars, probably much more. What memorable experience did having that much money make possible for you? So there's one thing is the money, and the other thing is what that money can buy. Well, I bought everything that I could hide. I bought seven farms. I owned the city, the land where the city of Moreno Valley, California is. I had an option on that land. Did the planning and development of that. The most expensive coin in the world. Yachts, ships, airplanes galore. Did that bring you happiness? No, absolutely not. In fact, I think I'm happier now. I know I'm happier now. So looking back, would you do it the same way all again? No way. Really, even the thrill of it? Not even thrill of it. It wasn't worth 33 years in prison, being away from my lovely family. So money, what about the power? Just being on top of the world where nobody can, not the governments, the police, all the big, bad agencies chasing you, and you could do whatever the heck you wanted. As far as having to look over your shoulder everywhere you went and every phone call you made, make sure that you was naked with somebody in the ocean before you talked. It's rather uncomfortable. Yeah. I like to make phone calls the same way. What was it like meeting and working with Pablo Escobar, the leader of the Medellin Cartel? He was just, just seemed like a gentleman when I met him. He was just like you and I, sitting here, shook hands, and I had flown one load for a fellow, and it didn't work out well. The fellow that I gave it to got shot, and it took a while to get my money, and they didn't put as many kilos on the plane as they're supposed to, and so I wasn't gonna work with him anymore, and my contact down there introduced me to Jorge Ochoa, and we went up, and in Vigado, we went up and the gate opened, and we was escorted in. There must have been 50 men out in the yards, hitching a rail on an old house, and we was escorted right in, and there was a beautiful woman in there. I mean, gore, drop dead beautiful, and she made us a cup of coffee, then ushered in to see Jorge Ochoa, and he had 12 telephones on his desk, and all of them was a different color, and he shook hands, was very friendly, spoke English, and he said that each one of those telephones represented another city in the United States. This is Chicago, and this is New York. If I ring, I knew who was calling, and so we chatted a while, and he asked me what type of airplanes I had and what experience I had flying across the U.S. border, and I told him he seemed pleased with it, and he called the lady in, and she went next door, and in came Pablo Escobar, and he introduced me to Pablo Escobar, and he asked the same questions again, and I answered him, and I asked him how much he paid, and he paid $5,000 a kilo to haul it, and so I said, how much you put on the plane? He said 300, 500, so that's one and a half, two and a half million dollars for an eight hour trip. Sounded pretty good to me. And we're talking about cocaine. Cocaine. And we're talking about Colombia. Colombia, and cocaine, and Medellin cartel. And Jorge Ochoa was one of the, what would you say, founding members of the Medellin? He was probably the brains behind the whole thing. The brains, and spoke good English. Yes. And they were nice people. Really nice people. Were you scared? Not at all. What's wrong with your mind that you weren't scared? Here's some of the most dangerous men in this world, and you weren't scared. Well, I knew I was gonna do exactly what I said I was gonna do. Murray and the children were down there. They went down and they stayed in the hotel, five stars, treated royally on my first load. And they just did ask security to make sure that I wasn't a DEA agent. So I did the first load, and they can say they were hostages, but they really weren't. It was just insurance. So there was some integrity to the way they operated. Completely. I mean, straight up. The money was ironed and banded, banded and just right. And the numbers were never once anything wrong with it. What would you attribute that honesty to? Within their own moral system and their own set of rules, why weren't people crossing the line and shaving off the top and injecting chaos into the system to where it would be unpredictable and people would be dishonest and greedy and all those kinds of things? That's true. Most people are, but there's certain people at the top of the food chain that they don't need that. And if they're completely honest, then they don't have to think of, remember the lie they told. And plus they're just honest to start with. They're making plenty of money. They was making as much money as I did. I'll tell you how that came about. I understand that 10,000 people were killed every year in Medellin, Colombia, and what they were doing, they didn't have any organization. And if one fellow had 10 kilos and he wanted it shipped to New York, he would tell his friend and his friend says, sure, I'll ship it. I have a pilot and I'll ship it up. And then he would look in the newspapers, oh, 40 kilos was busted in New Jersey. I'm so sorry, yours got busted. Bang, bang, he's dead. So here comes Jorge Ochoa and the three Ochoa brothers and Pablo Escobar and Gacho. And they decided that we will make an insurance company, that we will charge you $10,000 to take it to your contact in Miami. If it gets lost anywhere between the time I put it on the airplane or the time you give it to us and the time we give it to your man, we will replace it in Colombia for you. So there was no way anybody could lose. And I understand they got a hundred tons piled up under that insurance program. And I was right there the first day. So I had all the work I could do. I would land and I said, when do you want me to come back? We're waiting on you, Senor. Well, let me ask a difficult question. Some see Escobar as a brutal murderer and some see him as maybe a Robin Hood like figure who helped the poor. How do you see the man? Both of them. I think he started out to be honest with help the poor. And then they had a war down there and they blew up and killed his people. And the country was divided almost equally three ways. They had the military. They were just as much into it as anybody. And then you had the FARC guerrillas. They had about a third of the country. And then you had the Contras. It was like the white farmers and they're the ones that I was dealing with and they were at war with one another. And so if one of them started killing their people, well, I'll kill some of yours too. So that's how it happened. And then when I heard about Pablo Escobar blowing up that airliner and killing those women and children, I was sorry I ever shook his hand. That's brutal murder. So you would say Escobar is not a good man? Not at all. He's terrible. Now, looking back on it, when I met him, he was good. Did just exactly what he said he would do. Could he be a bad man and a man you can trust? Are those the things you... Absolutely you could trust him, yes. So from your perspective, in terms of business, he was reliable, he was honest, had integrity. You could work with him and he felt safe. Completely. We flew up to his ranch and we brought out motorcycles to start with. And can you ride a motorcycle? Of course I can ride a motorcycle. So I took off across the grass and there was a little ditch there and the front wheel dropped in that thing and I must have slid across that grass 20 feet before I got stopped. He almost fell off of his bike waiting because they knew what it was gonna do. And then we got on horses and we went out there and pretended to round up some cows and he put a Mac 10 machine gun pistol over my shoulder. Do you know how to use this? Well, I never had, but it was all right. I think it was like, okay, you got 10 bodyguards, what do you need me for? So that's the kind of time we laughed and talked and drove some cows over the stumps. You said Jorge Ochoa was perhaps the brains of the Medellin cartel. What was he like? And why do you say he was the brains? Well, he was a gentleman. And I suppose he shipped, and don't tell me how many more times of cocaine than Pablo did. Just him and his brothers, you could tell by the, they had on each load, they was in duffel bags and his big football shaped fluffy stuff made with ether. And they would have three horns on it or a rattlesnake or four Xs on each bag. You kind of got to knowing which was which and they shipped a lot. So, and he was just a gentleman. I took the family, we went one weekend to his ranch or his palatial place out near Barranquilla and oh, he just treated the family. His family had, his younger brother made a bull fight and we had skiing and little airplanes on floats on the water. He was really nice and he was really nice. How do you make sense of the tension that a man could be a gentleman, can have integrity, but also be a murderer? Well, murder is a stronger word than killing. Can you explain the line, the gray area we're talking about? I mean, I've just talking with Jocko Willing, can we talk a lot about killing in the context of military conflict in the context of war? So there, there's a line between murder and killing that you can draw. What's the line that you're referring to? It's something similar. If people are shooting at you and you shoot back and kill him, that's not murder whatsoever. He's trying to get away or out of the situation. But if some woman don't pay you and you send a hit man over to kill her and her children, that's murder. Was Jorge involved in those kinds of things? I don't think so at all. I mean, he was just such a gentleman. He had a restaurant before and he was just smart. I understand that the first 10 kilos he sold, he was sitting on a motorcycle in the sidelines in a parking lot and when the DEA come in, he sped away. So he didn't come back to America. He was just smart. Some people just are savvy. And he was such a gentleman. And the whole family, the mother and the father, the two brothers, their sister, I was there when she was kidnapped. And finally, he kidnapped our, I guess, 100 leaders of the FARC and said, all right, when she don't come back, none of these are gonna come back. So they made a deal. Is there something you can say about the power structure, the hierarchy of the Medellin cartel that you interacted with? Was it a dictatorship where Pablo ran everything? Was there a bunch of power centers? Was it like a company where you have CEO, CTO kind of thing? And then there's like managers and all those kinds of things. How did it run from a leadership perspective? I understand that about five of them got together and made this, I would call it an insurance company. And now known as the Medellin Cartel. And I didn't see any difference. Each one of them had their own business. And their people from the jungle or wherever made the cocaine, gave it to them and they shipped it. And so it didn't seem to be any power play between them at all. But my main contact was Jorge Ochoa and Pablo Escobar was right there. And I saw plenty of stuff for him too. It's strange that they didn't betray each other regularly. You know, greed makes men betray each other. How do you explain that? How much betrayal did you see? I didn't see any, absolutely none. If they shipped his 100 kilos, he got paid for it. And if the other one shipped his, I'm sure they got paid for it. How do you explain that? Well, there was no need to. The money was just unbelievable. You think about 500 kilos in the plane at $50,000 a kilo at the time. And they paid $5,000 to ship it. And they made 5,000 without even touching it. They just had somebody to load it on through the airplane. I gave it to their man in Miami. They gave it to whoever it belonged to by the marks on the duffel bags. So they was making just untold millions. Just no reason. But greed can blind men. It's still strange to me that there was not more betrayal. It speaks to something else perhaps that's bigger than money. Maybe not. But it seems like just like in the casino, like you mentioned, we get accustomed to whatever level of money we have, we get accustomed very quickly. Yes. And then there's a tension that's natural between human beings. And when that tension combined with money, combined with power, combined with, like you mentioned, beautiful women and a bit of violence, it seems that betrayal should be commonplace. But it's not. It wasn't, not at all. Carlos later, I don't know if he betrayed anybody, but he started that. He was running cocaine through the Bahamas near the island. I didn't go. I was offered to fly with a DC3 with that, but I didn't like it. So I had my route through the old wells in Louisiana. And so I wasn't gonna change, but he talked a lot and I don't know if he betrayed, but they didn't like him. Yeah, so as you expand, there could be tensions that lead to conflict. Columbia was, like you said, an ultra violent place. How did you survive? Who protected you? I was a hero. They liked me. I mean, I was just treated royally. All I did, I would come over El Banco. There's a radio station at the Forks of the Magdalena River. I believe it was 720, if I remember right, on the AM. And I'd fly in at 10,000 feet and I'd see below me there'd be a Cessna. it was still somehow accurate. Like they captured the spirit. So it was historically accurate and the spirit was captured. That was one of the most incredible like series I've ever seen. It convinced me that the movie was made by non Russians. It convinced me that if you really care about a story, you don't have to have been brought up in it. You don't even need to speak the language. If you're truly a scholar of it, if you talk to a lot of people, if you learn, if you just pour your heart and soul into it, you can create something really special. And so your son says you could do that with the story with this period of time. Oh yes, it was a story that needs to be told. It need to be told in the correct way. Not like we're trying to bash a certain angle. Yeah. Well, if Netflix or HBO are watching this, you need to tell the story of Roger Rees, in my opinion. There you go. This is a young picture of you. Yeah. There you go. That's from National Geographic. Jorge Archoa, Pablo Escobar, it's you, Roger and Barry. Yeah. And the Muggler, a memoir. Yeah, I really do hope that they make a movie of this one. There's a movie called Blow that tells the story of George Young, Boston George. Did you know George Young? That's one way to ask it. The other is what do you think of the movie Blow? I didn't know George Young, but it was a wonderful movie. Absolutely. It captured it. It did. Yes, it did. That's the way it should be. So he was a little bit before your time? Exactly the same time. Exactly the same time. He was using stewardesses to fly the marijuana out of Manhattan Beach, and I was on the fire department in Redondo Beach, 10 miles away, flying it up, sending it back. Somebody was sending it back. He might've been sending it back, but he didn't have near the excitement that I did. I was shot down twice. I escaped from five different prisons. I was tortured almost to death in a Mexican prison. So he didn't have all that fun that I had. Fun in quotes. Yeah, so yours is a heck of a fun adventure. Just to linger on a little bit. So Johnny Depp plays George, and Ray Liotta plays his father, and there's this son father kind of scene at the end. I don't know. It's heartbreaking. Like that scene paints a picture of a life that could have been had if none of this wild drug smuggling happened. I don't usually, I mean, I don't, I'm almost, I really never get like teary eyed in a movie, but that got me. It's almost like confronting at the end of your life what your life could have been with your father, the way he calls him Georgie. It, like you fucked up, Georgie. Yes, I did too. I really, really did. Mario waited for me all those years and the children raised them without me, visiting me in prisons all over the world. It's unbelievable. It's just, nothing's worth that kind of money. Yeah. Can you tell the story of when you were tortured nearly to death in a Mexican prison? I sure can and I'm smiling, but it was nothing to smile about, I can tell you. I was in a pool and a gentleman came over and shook hands with me and put handcuffs on me. And I thought, what in the world? That was at one of the nice hotels. They put me in a jail cell and I sat there and all the drunks and thieves and stuff kept coming in and they had a bucket and it overrun. And I said, I remember like 18 people in a room about 12 foot square. Oh, it was hot and I thought, somebody's gotta come get me, this ain't real. I hadn't done anything. It's like, it was a pilot come to see me up in Hermosillo and he stopped and he made a mistake and went to the International Runway instead of where he was supposed to go. And he had my phony name in his pocket, so they got me. So they said I was a drug smuggler. So after about three days, they put me back into the back and it was a torture place. And they put me in a little cell like, I guess it wasn't hard even, it wasn't six feet, must've been about five feet square and about 12 feet high. And it was June, the end of June, and it was hot. I mean hot. And they left me in there for, I guess a few days. You didn't know, so every once in a while they'd come drag me out and first off, they put my head under water and it had seltzer in it or some kind. And I took one whiff of that and three or four of them couldn't hold me down. So then I learned that just before you have to breathe, tear loose like that and they'll let you up. And that was the first treatment. And then they started beating me. And they beat me with a blackjack and rubber hose until I was black and blue and yellow from the bottom of my feet to my head. What did they want from you? They wanted me to sign a confession that I was a drug smuggler. And they put the papers under your nose. This is all over if you'll sign. Well, I knew if you signed, you got six years. I wasn't gonna sign, I wasn't gonna sign. But they didn't want you to snitch on anybody. They just wanted you to say. No, they just wanted me to sign that paper. And you still didn't. I didn't even bow to it. I ain't a beat and ate that bad. So. So anyhow, it just got them into the good part. So then they come and they take me out, I'm bug naked and they bend me over and they have things to pull you, like chains click, click, click, click, click. And they bent me over and they put butter on my bum and they commenced to put hot chili pepper up there and that stuff was bad. I mean, it was red hot and that was, that was awful. And still. That was just awful. Yeah, but still you didn't. I didn't think about it. I ain't going to, I guess if I'd have known he was gonna kill me, I wouldn't have done it. But I wasn't about, you get hurt bad enough you'll pass out, so I didn't pass out. So I was all right. So then the last thing they did was they brought a dead man in there and he was wrapped. He was frozen. He was wrapped in newspaper, little strips about a half inch wide, just like a mummy. And he was frozen and they hung him on the wall with a meat hook and you next son of a bitch, you next. And so he's sitting there like this and as he starts to throw out, which is pretty quick, it looks like he's crying and it looks like he's peeing and the paper starts unraveling on him and the formaldehyde puddles on the floor. Ooh, what a smell that rotten insides and the formaldehyde and there was a little space. It wasn't even a half inch high under the door. And I lay on that filthy floor with my cheek and put my lips right up under that door and we're sucking that fresh air. And I went to sleep after some time. And I know where Walt Disney gets his ideas. I saw white pink pigs with wings on them, all kinds of stuff flying around. So when I woke up, I didn't know which was real and which was the nightmare. It took me a minute to figure out where I was and what was going on. How did you stay mentally strong through that time? Like what? I don't know that I did. I was, yeah, I was mentally strong. So I was just like I am now. Stubborn. I mean, you could be that man that could have killed you. Yes, I could have. So what gave you hope? Did you have hope? Yeah. Or you were just a stubborn son of a bitch? I think some of both of it. And I think they aren't going to keep you here forever. You know, you're going to get out into the prison or they're going to let you go or something. If you sign that paper, you ain't going nowhere. And I want to go home. I got shot down a few weeks before that. I got shot from out of the sky. 80 bullet holes through the plane, killed a fellow on the ground, shot the leg nearly off the man in the plane. Where was this? In that little place of Peachy Lingy. You want to tell you that story? And they were shooting you from the ground. Yeah, yeah. All right. A little 900 foot strip there at Peachy Lingy, a poor, poor village with starving donkeys. And that's where they'd, I'd give them $17,000 for the load. And I'd go over on the highway and load. Well, on day 13, I did a load every day for 13 days. They had a bunch of marijuana, pretty good piled up. And I was going low today. And on day 13, I had that little warning sign going off in my stomach. Uh oh, uh oh, don't do it. But I asked this Joaquin, oh, we had the federal, all this paid off, nowhere we were. So I spent the night in a hammock and walked down to the airplane, just as it get in daylight. And 10 or 12 men walked with me and Pedro got in. I brushed my teeth in the little stream. It was about foot deep, a little river coming through there. And got in the airplane and I fired her up. Bam, blah, blah. And bam, I thought a tire blew out. I looked over and it still ain't dawned on me. And Pedro was yelling, police here, police here Roger, police here. Well, it dawned on me. And I shoved it, the throttle to the firewall. And I only had about. So that was a bullet. Yeah, somebody, there's officer sides, they'd shot. They'd shot just a warning, like get out, stop. We're gonna rob you, whatever it is. That's what they do. They just taking the plane and me and put me in prison, old thing. So, but I, even though I had papers. So I just shoved it to the firewall and there wasn't enough room to take off on that strip. And there's half of it was behind me or some of it was behind me. And so just at the end, I'm just like, I think that thing stalls at about 50 miles an hour. Just turning 50 and I just pulled it right up and put the flaps on. And as I pulled off the ground, they opened up on both sides of me with machine guns and they riddled that airplane. I mean, the windshield came out. I got hit three times. You, like your body? Yeah. And I didn't know I was hit. I mean, it was just the gasoline just pouring in. The world turned yellow. I must've went into shock. So it just stopped in slow motion. And one bullet hit the strut right by my head. And it just, parts of that bullet just went all over me. I just looked like I'd been peppered with lead. And the gasoline was just pouring in. I mean, just pouring in where they'd shot the wing up above and the windshield's gone. I mean, it was just like a hail storm. So I was... Airplanes did stall or no? I was in a stall anyway, and I didn't realize it. And I guess you wouldn't unless you trained for it. But when you're in a stall, the elevator is kind of flappy. And I didn't realize it at the time. I thought they had shot the elevator cable in too. So I thought, oh God. So I just reached over and switched it off, switched the mixture, pulled everything. And in the river, there was rocks about as big as this table. And they were like the turtle back all the way up until there was a waterfall. There's quite a pretty place. And I crashed straight onto it. I thought if I get those rocks. And when I did the first time I hit, the wings came off and then it bounced. And the next time the nose came up and came under the plane and I'm sitting there, I must've been knocked unconscious called Pedro shaking me. Come on, Roger, come on, Roger. So I stepped out into the water and here comes these four Federalists still shooting at us. And I'm bulleted to hit the airplane. And I kept a nine millimeter Browning high power taped to the top of the radio in case I ever needed it. So, cause you didn't want it in the airplane. So I just, it was just handy just laying there. So I took and popped a few caps out of them and they ran into the rocks. So we took off running. And then I looked and Pedro's foot nearly shot off. They'd shot him on one side of the ankle and it just blown out the other side. And it wasn't even hardly bleeding, the shock of it. So I took my T shirt off and gripped it and tied it best I could. But you had still bullets in you. So like you could still run. I shot the top of my toenail off. I shot it across my head and my kneecap. So I was just nicked. Okay, got it. It was very painful later on, but right that time I didn't, it was just hot. And there's a bullet still in my foot from it, a piece of a bullet. Good size slug. So we went on up the mountain through the cactus and just running. Just going, I want to go down. No, no, the federal is going the easy way. Let's go, this young fella. And we came to an old donkey. She must've been 30 years old, long and way back, long hair on her, Charlotte, Charlotte. And he petted the donkey and we jumped on. And we rode for seven. Like an actual donkey? A donkey. There were donkeys all over the place. Anyhow, he knew that one from the village. And so we rode seven miles, two of us, on a donkey with no bridle, no saddle, nothing. And we came to a little man plowing a little horse and a little ox. Both of them were spotted and the ox was, the yoke was across their back this way. And he was plowing with a little plow among stumps. It was like one of these people clearing a little piece of land. And he had a little house there. And so we went into his house and his wife and his daughter, they put like a cloth over my wounds and on Pedro's. It was terrible. And they poured diesel oil on it to keep the flies off. So I'm covered in diesel. So the man left and he was gone all day. And then about dark, he showed up, maybe about 15 or 20 horses and mules showed up in the yard, walking fast. And a doctor got out, he said, I'm Dr. Benjamin Soso with Red Cross. And he worked on my foot and he worked on Pedro. He gave us a shot of morphine and tetanus shots. And he said, you got to get to hospital. He said, Pedro will die if he don't get to hospital. He said, they are looking for American pilots been shot down and they think he's dead. There was a lot of blood in that airplane. And so they rode, I don't know how far we rode, but we rode miles and we'd come to a road and there was a big truck and it was loaded with corn in the ear. And they dug holes in that corn, put us in it and covered us up. And the road was rough. And every time we'd hit a dirt road, that corn would cover me up. They'd scratch my face out again. And when they came to the highway, we went into a house and they got me some clothes and mine was messed up and a white basin. And they must've brought 20 jugs of water different times. I kept washing and washing my foot till all the blood and the crud got off of me and put on those clothes. And somebody went to, they said, you can't go North, the road's blocked. They're looking for the pilot. So you got to go South. So they found a taxi in Mazatlan. And it was a rather new taxi. And the fellow would take me to Guadalajara, which was, I don't know, seven, eight hours South. So we got in that taxi and they propped me up with sheets and blankets and pillows in the back seat and gave me these great big white pain pills. And I was quite content. Then I was shot down in Columbia also. What, can you tell that story? I sure can. All right, I went down for a load of marijuana and we got to the place and we got there too early. And the guerrillas screamed, you got to get out of here, you got to get out of here. And so we went back to the place where we stayed from and refueled. I had a beautiful DC3, carried three tons. And so while I was waiting, I ate something for lunch and I went around behind the house. We refueled a plane up and I had to wait till late afternoon. They wanted me to come just at dark so the military planes couldn't see me on their strip. So I'm leaning in the hammock asleep and I hear this terrible roar. And I looked right up through the trees and at the end of two military jets going straight up. They do a dive over and they came back down the strip in front of that airplane and they just tear it up with 50 caliber machine guns. They just showing out. So I run for the airplane, I just give that guy $80,000 and he ran for the truck and all the rest of them ran for the truck. I should have ran with my money, but I didn't, I ran for the airplane. And the copilot got in and his name was Al. He got in with me and two fellows got in the back. We had drums of fuel in there to refuel when we got down to the guerrillas. So we took off and I couldn't get the gear up because I'd taken off in such a hurry. These pins in the struts of a DC3 and with big flags on them and you have to take them up so that the plane won't come up. So these jets swarmed on me and they tried to get me to go. They kept telling me which way to go and the pilot would be just as close as just right over there. I could see him. I just held up the old iffy piece. I didn't think they would shoot. I really didn't. Nobody had shot before. So I kept flying out and I kept getting slower and slower and they kept slowing down, down, down and the black smoke rolling. And then they started shooting up under me. Boom, boom, boom, boom with them 20 millimeter cannons. And then the tracers just going up. They looked like they're curving up from me. I woo and I pushed the nose over so they couldn't get under me. And later on I heard they thought I tried to ram them. So one of them went for fuel and I kept on going and the one just tore the left wing tip up with the 50 caliber. And then he come back again and shot the tail up. He's warning me. And I tell the feller in there, I says, you know, if you bring me enough water, I believe I can fly this thing. My mouth got quite dry. So I went on and I landed on a big pasture. And it was huge pasture and it was rougher than it looked. And the wings just flapped and I come to a stop and jumped out and pull those tabs out, threw them on the ground so I could get my gear up. And I understand that during the 1980 World Series baseball game that it says American DC three has just been shot down by American jets, by Colombian jets. You know, it's the first plane shot down on Reagan's new war on drugs. But he's up, he's up and away, ladies and gentlemen. We keep you posted. So I took off again and I went into a thunderstorm and they came close to the mountains. So I spiraled up and every time I'd come out, that jet was there, boom, boom, boom. And I'd go back into that storm and boom, boom, boom in there and at 20,000 feet, I started icing up. So I went out one last time and he was right there waiting. He had me on radar. So I went back in and I kicked it over and put it into a spin and went straight down to 2000 feet and come out under it. And I was flying along the Guaviera River and it was 20 feet above the water. It looked like a pasture, it was just grass. And I made several runs to tear the grass down and it looked like, and it felt hard. That old DC three weighs 30,000 pounds and I put it down on the fifth run. I said, all right, now we're gonna land now. And as I was. Did you do like close several times? I put the wheels down. Oh, you put the wheels down without landing. And just, so I'm making a run for it, you know. So you, okay. So you're being tracked by a jet. He's going. He's trying to, well, before that, I'm just like retelling this story, how insane it is. So he's trying to shoot you down and there's a thunderstorm that you're escaping into. And then you do a spin down to what, 2000 feet? Whatever you said, like somehow escaping all of this. And then you try to land on a pasture on a giant heavy plane that carries three tons by touching down five or six times to make a landing strip for yourself. Yeah, the grass is three or four feet high. So it looked really good after about, after a few times. So then just before it stopped, I said, Al, take your feet off the brakes. He said, I don't have my feet on the brakes. Well, I knew I had broken through the crust and I put full power on, but it didn't. That old big plane just come on down and it just did a head, as it came to a stop, it did a headstand, 90 degrees to the ground. Oh, wow. And the engines held it up and the nose and all just crushed in right on it. We fell between the two seats to keep from getting killed. Wow. And when it come to a stop, all that fuel was pouring out on those hot engines and there was an escape hatch at the top. I just stepped out, took my suitcase with me. Was there fire? No fire, left the plane there and the two guys that was in the back, one of them broke his thumb and it was with the barrels and they had to put a hose, tie gas hose together to shimmy down to get out. Yeah. So. That's an incredible story. Well, let me just tell you, they had a little bit more to it. I learned to fly with the idea of being a missionary aviation fellowship pilot, fly the missionaries in and out of the jungle. Well, I went 11 days through that jungle. The rest of them went on down the road and went to prison. I said, I'll crawl on my belly six months in here a year, eating snakes before I'm going down the road. So I went in there and I was 11 days in the jungle and I finally came to this place and it had airplanes. I kept asking the Indian, dandistai avions. I want to steal an airplane and get out of there. And when I came to the place, I asked, what is this place? Lovely place. It looked like Honolulu in World War II. There was a runway there. Said, you don't know. This is Loma Linda headquarters for Missionary Aviation Fellowship for the Amazon. And they flew me out. Wow. You escaped from prison five times? So what stands out to you as the most difficult or miraculous escape in the bunch? The most black miraculous was when I was in the courtroom in Spain. I think I was on the third floor of Real High and I ran across the courtroom, handcuffed, kicked the window out. And I looked down and it was above the palm trees. I thought there might be a power line or something I could grab on as I went down. There was nothing. And there was a car parked, a station wagon on the side. You just jumped out? I jumped out from 31 feet and on top of that car. And it exploded in the street. The windshield went over three or four cars. It looked like snow going up. And I looked like Donald Duck with the thing coming off and handcuffs and I got out. And you just kept running? Yeah, I kept running. They ran me down and hit me in the back. I still got a dead spot in my back where the policeman hit me with a shotgun. And they brought me back. Murray was there and they were saying, your husband is crazy. That was spectacular. But I escaped from Lubeck, maximum security prison. And I cut out of there and got out. That was a miraculous escape. And that was where? In Lubeck, Germany. What was that escape like? I was there and they was going to extradite me back to the United States where I still had all these charges and 25 years special parole. And I was cleaning the lawyer's visiting room and on it was bars that looked like piano notes or this way to make it pretty. But they was a little bit, so I got a rope from a guy where they made boats in there. And I had 20 minutes. So I went in there and I wrapped it around and I put a broom handle in it that was cut off and wrapped it around until they pull the bars together on that side. And then I pulled them together on the other side. But that only put me in inside the prison yard where the soccer equipment was kept. But they were putting new windows on one side of the prison and they had it scaffolded up to the fourth floor. So there was a little recess there and there was guard towers every 100 feet or so. I mean, they would shoot and kill you. So I got behind that and climbed up holding to the bricks on one hand and the scaffolding on the other and went to the roof. I lost my shirt and most of my clothes going through the window. I got all the skin off of me. I thought I was gonna die. And I was trying to go sideways like this. And finally I got a grip and the bars let me through and took all the skin off of me. So I got up on that roof and I have asthma and I just lay there trying to catch my breath. Didn't bring my inhaler. With blood everywhere. Oh, I was bloody, yes. And so I got down to the end and on the end, the reason I did it, they would put it, they was putting a new wall again around the prison to make it larger. And they had taken all the wire off above the Sally port where they could join the two walls together. And I saw that when I came up and there was a guard, a half of like a dome sticking out of that brick building where there's a guard there with a gun and he'd kill you. And I mean, he was made, he was surely trained to kill you. And we had some bad people in that place. So I lay up one floor above it and I saw a guard and his wife come with a double umbrella. It was just pouring down the rain. Here I am without a shirt on, bloody. And she had a little boy with him under that double umbrella and I knew him and when he come and she started back from the Sally port, I hit the top of that guard tower, bam, with both feet. And I jumped, I guess it's three more floors. I jumped, there was a pile of sand, like a cone where they were digging it there. And I hit that and my feet buried up to the knees, but I didn't fall. And I ran straight towards her so he couldn't shoot me. And then I went around some bushes and went downhill. And then I heard bam, bam, bam, bam, bam behind me. And I looked and that fool woman was in a big old car and she was knocking down the parking meters behind me. She was trying to run over me. And I ran behind the car and she tore the fender off of her car, trying to yell and yow, yow, yow, and a terrible evil looking face at me, screaming at me. And the sirens going off in the prison. And there was a fence there, a wall. And I jumped up on it to jump over and it had glass embedded. And I cut my hands and my arms all up getting over that. And I hit the ground on the other side and it was like, it was that mucked muck where some farmer had dug it. I dug in there and Maury had slipped me $200 into prison. And I had that in my shoe and I lost my shoes in that muck. But anyway, I got out of there and got to Holland. Really a heck of a story how I did that. What was prison like, whether it's Germany or whether it's Australia? What were some of the darker moments in prison? The United States prisons are awful, awful evil places now. And just really, there's nothing nice about them. There's the guards. In LA? And everyone I went to. It seemed like the further east I went to Oklahoma and it was nicer, but all of them on the West Coast, they was hatred there. And they got really stupid people hired, just incredibly. Oh, hatred by the guards. And the inmates, like I speak Spanish and I walked in to the Spanish TV room and it was saying, you know, no, you can't come in here. And I walked across to the black, hey, get out of here, white boy. It was just like, what? Man, I like all you people, you know? And so I walked down to the white people and said, show us your paperwork. You can't come in here until you show your paperwork. We don't let snitches and homosexuals and all this sort of stuff in here. So they have, so it's just like, man, I don't wanna be in here. I mean, it sounds absurd, but you're saying like the basic humanity is gone. Completely, completely in the guards. It was just like, come here, Reeves. And I woke up to him, get the fuck out of my face. Sticks his chin out, like for me to break his jaw. Like, what in the world, man? I love people and it's just. Yeah, you got this joy to you. You have a joyful nature. And it didn't seem like that broke you. Not a bit. How did you persevere? Did you know, I didn't even think I persevered, but I try to enjoy my life wherever I am every day. I do. I ran every day. And like I told you, why do you run so, Roger? I said, to help me suffer these fools. And I played a game of chess every day, almost of my life in there. And I read two books a week. And I talked with people, storytellers, guys would come in and, tell us another story, Roger. Give us a poem. Tell us one you never told us before. And so it was just nice. A lot of them have original boys. They picked their country music and it was all right. Red, Morgan Freeman's character in The Shawshank Redemption says the following. These walls are funny. First you hate them, then you get used to them. Enough time passes you get, so you depend on them. That's institutionalized. Is there truth to that? 100%, I didn't even see the walls, except whenever I was planning on escaping. In Shawshank Redemption, he spent so many years in prison that he almost didn't know what to do with himself once he left, once he was a free man. That's the, you get so used to the system, the rituals, having to follow orders, even being treated poorly, all those kinds of things that you become dependent on. Well, down in Australia, I spent the first, a little over a year in the shoe. It was like, did you see the movie, The Silence of the Lambs, thank you, Marty. And he said, I had five or six guards looking at me with a one way mirror. And that's whenever I thought I might never get out, I got a life sentence. I had all this time waiting here in Germany. And so that's, they had a computer in there, but it didn't have a program on it. And I wrote, so I just started writing these little stories of stuff I did in my life. And I wrote one line and I wrote over a million words with them looking at me. So it was after a year, they let me out. It wasn't long before they put me in a place called Self Care. And particularly, I was in what they call the lifers pod. There was 268 men in Self Care there. And it was unbelievably good that we were left alone. Basically, they was there or the guards were certainly there, but they had their shack and we had apartments, four apartments to the building. And six men to the unit with your own door and a key to it and a kitchen, dining room, freezer, refrigerator. And they gave you, allowed you $360 a week to buy groceries. And I cooked for about 16 years and learned to cook good. And the people and other people have their specialties. And so that was quite, it wasn't so like being in prison. It was somewhat living with me and it was difficult, man. I had some good fights and carry on. You don't get along with everybody. But then whenever I came back to the United States, I was laughing and talking. And when I got off the plane in LA, I had three marshals with me from Australia. I was slammed upside the wall. I mean, hard, put ankle mics on and handcuffed so tight till they cut my lane off. Face forward, face forward, lands apart. Good gracious. And walked me 50 steps and turned me over to the marshals and they took part of that off. That was a border patrol that was there over my marijuana charge from 1977. I did 11 years for parole violation. Now they want me for more violation. And they put me in, down in Los Angeles, they put me in, the marshals put me in there and they put me in isolation. I thought, what in the world they got me for isolation for? I'm doing anything. How long did you spend in isolation? More than six months. So I, after three or four days as the little Judas window slide open and a man, a nice looking man in a suit come there, hello Reeves, I wanna, just wanna see what you look like. I saw your National Geographic documentary and it does me pleasure to keep you in isolation. And he slammed the thing and I couldn't get out of there. And by law, the US Parole Commission is supposed to give you a hearing within 90 days. So Murray paid a lawyer $7,500 and he never picked up the phone. Somebody got to him. Who's that somebody you think? Christopher Cannon was his name and I don't know who got to him, but he didn't do anything to get me out of there. I got one 15 minute phone call a month and I couldn't get out. So then after six months, they put me on Conair, double shackled and black box on my hands. And I went to Oklahoma and they let me out on the floor. I couldn't imagine. Then I could call after a couple of days and they said, there was a man here from Washington give you a parole hearing and you only got here at 3.30. So he left, he said he'd be back next year. What? I've been in now over six months. So then there was a lovely little lady, she was a case manager or something. She said, you can ask for parole on the record. And I said, please do. So I sent them an email and the next day I got my parole. 90 days later, they sent me to Terminal Island and put me in the place there with the invalid, I guess since I'm as old as I am, 78 years old. So they put me in the people in there dying and wheelchairs and legs off and arms off and cancer. So I was in there and I pushed the fellows around and I went, come out of the chow hall there and I went to go to the right to get me a haircut and the two Mexican guys there, Lieutenant and another one, walked between us and he went like the boop, boop, boop. I could outrun you. And they slammed me, put me on the ground, handcuffed me and put me in the shoe for a week. I got out and man, they put me back in the place. They treated me rough. So I got in a little more trouble and they put me back in the shoe and I wouldn't come out. They had that, the virus was out killing people. So they killed eight people in that unit I was in. So I mean, I wouldn't even come out to take a shower. I had a little straw that I put in the sink and I'd take a sock that I had and scrub myself with it with some slope and a glass of water over my head and then clean the floor up and put it in the toilet. So that was your time during the coronavirus pandemic. I got out last April, right in the middle of it and they were dying bad in there. So I was treated worse for that last year in America than I was for the whole 20 years in Australia, the 18 years in Australia. And then you were a free man at the end of that year. They put me out and sent me home and the parole officers couldn't even come. They weren't working. They were just doing everything by video. They said, better not have a drink. The only constituent thing was I couldn't even have a drink of wine. So after a year, I had to take psychiatric treatment. Every week I had to go talk to the psychiatrist, psychologist and me and her got along great. She was a good Christian woman. We just chatted and talked. And I think they said, so I had to pee in the bottle every week. I said, I've been in 33 years. How many piss deaths do you think I've had? Never been dirty. Only thing if you all wanna clean when you come get me. Before I talk to you about love, let me ask you a difficult question. You write in your book, ''I don't consider myself much of a criminal. I don't lie, cheat or steal. And I always take up for the underdog. Violence makes me sick. Yet I know I'm an outlaw and those that break the law must be punished. I think many people listening to this or some people listening to this will see you as a criminal, as a bad man who increased the amount of suffering in this world. What do you have to say to them? I would like to tell them that they have been indoctrinated by the spin of news and politicians and they don't know the truth of the situation. You lay the truth out there in an envelope, let me open it besides something else that is false and it's staggering. The truth is that I was a tobacco farmer and tobacco kills 500,000 people a year in America and 6 million have debilitating diseases because of it. Drugs, all drugs combined kill between 10 and 15,000 people a year by overdose and 60% of those are pharmaceutical. Now, then when I was a tobacco farmer, come sit on the front pew, Mr. Reeves, come on up here, you're a gentleman. You just joined the Masonic Lodge and you joined our church and you just come on and sit down with the good people. You grow two marijuana plants, get out of here you scumbag and the marijuana doesn't hurt anybody. It's just, that's the truth of it. And so in your career, you walked amidst violence but you never participated in the violence. I didn't even see it. Just didn't happen around me, in prison it did. I sewed people up, they called me doc. I had dental floss and one time I had to get a blade and try to help keep from my patient from getting again. But I was just like, if I shot at those people, I shot at them to keep them from killing me. I certainly didn't mean to kill them. So that's just, some people are evil and they will kill you and hurt you and lie to you. I just don't do any of that. It just makes you sick. I've seen it. When I was in the shoe, three guys tried to kill a guy and they stabbed him so many times, but they stabbed Blake and the blood getting out of the room. I said, you're gonna kill him. You're gonna kill him and save his life. Drug him up there where the guards could see him. There's stuff like that. I'm just not of that nature of those people. They're just evil. They're people born evil, I believe. It is heartbreaking to hear that the basic humanity is gone in prison in the United States. That's heartbreaking because that basic humanity is actually the light at the end of the tunnel. It's the thing that saves us as opposed to, when it's absent, it's the thing that destroys us. The prisons are filled, absolutely filled with people that have some mental problems. Now, you see Tent City all the way up and down here. I guarantee you, every one of those people have mental problems, some degree. However little it is, but they are a little bit off. Now, then you get a DEA agent that wants to make a name for himself. He goes down there and gets two of them, one of them to sell a little two grams of methamphetamine to the other one, and he gets a conviction. And a young prosecutor, he gets a conviction. He wants to make a judge. And we got the judge in, where was it? I'm gonna give a million, what was his name? Gilbert. I'm gonna give him in a million years before I get off the judge. You get fools like that in charge. You're gonna fill prisons up with pitiful humanity. And those are the ones. And then the other is people over drugs. And drugs should be a health issue. You cannot police it enough. It's just, they know the only thing that overdoses is opioids, the heroin. And if they can give it to him, it costs about a dollar a day to give the worst addict his fix. But they'll give it methadone, which is from a pharmaceutical company, which is just as bad. Why in the world, we tried it all over the world in Portugal and England. And when they give the girls cleanup, no more stolen cars, why? Who wants to keep this farce going? They just perpetuating it. Like, oh, every little police place is getting all these suits and armor and machine guns. It's just like, oh, it's such a spin, it's sad. Do you think all drugs should be legalized? I don't know about that, but they certainly should be controlled. If a person is an addict, he should be able to go down and get his fix with somebody there to help him with a clean needle and a glass of orange juice. It's so much cheaper than prison. It's so much cheaper than him stealing cars or a prostitute having to go to work. That's sad. You've lived one heck of a life. Looking back, there's a lot of young people that listen to this, high school, college students. What advice would you give them? How to live, how to have a successful career, how to have a good life, how to be a good man or woman? To be a good man or woman, if I had it to do over with, I'll just tell you what I'd have done. I would have paid attention and studied my lesson and did the best I could. In school. In school, yes. And went as far as I could have. I would have liked to been a doctor. I just didn't have the stickability or anybody to tell me, hey, go over there and do that. And if you can do that at a very young age, start in a trade, learn to do something. It doesn't matter what it is. If you learn to do something good, there is a great demand for you. And I would say that in prison, that the prison system should come in and you get a thief, young fans of thief, robber, and you say, all right, we need carpenters. We need plumbers. We need electricians. We need sheep. Sentence them to that trade. And when you get an A plus in that, where you can go out and make you $30 or $50 an hour, you go home. Now you can mess around 10 years if you want to, or you can do this in two. I think that's just for the prison. But anyway, I would say that they find somebody and be true to them. That we have, just be honest and true in your life. You mean like relationships, friendships? Relationships, yes. I mean, so many, so many people, particularly our children, are from relationships where they not wanted their divorce. Their father's left. They don't know who their daddy is. They're just in foster homes. 500,000 children are in foster homes in America today. And we have, and our government inadvertently isn't encouraging those people. My daughter is a doctor and she delivered a couple of years ago a baby from a 10 year old child. That child, and she said in the visiting room is four generations, all of them on welfare. Now we got one more. And it reminds me of Elvis Presley's song, In the Ghetto. So for an individual, learn a trade, become a craftsman, learn a trade, become a craftsman of sorts, and find somebody to love and who loves you. That's right, have a family and stick with it. Surely you're gonna get angry. You're gonna get disappointed. You're gonna get all kinds of stuff, but come back and make up before you go to sleep. Well, I did half of those things. I got the first one and working on the second one. So I appreciate the advice. Well, Mari, thank you so much for joining us. Can you tell me the story of how you two met? Well, my parents every summer would go to the lake in Canada and the place was called Turkey Point, which is on Lake Erie, and just have a nice summer holiday there, water skiing, swimming, sunbathing. This was back in the 60s and I was sitting on the pier with a few girlfriends and telling them my story. And then all of a sudden I looked up and I saw this figure in the distance coming onto the pier. Now we're all dressed in bathing suits and swimwear. We're swimming and this, that, and the other. And here he comes, dark trousers. In fact, they were black, white shirt and a tie and a straw kind of a Panama hat. And so he stood out. And so I invited him to come and sit down. And so he continued to talk and we just talked and talked and talked and then later moved to the beach. And I think the next time I saw him, he was talking to another girl and I thought, yeah, you know, I know, I was okay, okay, next. Well, but six months later I receive a letter and it's a letter from Roger. And then we start this lovely correspondence and we just start writing, you know, in those days, you just wrote everything. And then the next summer he was coming up again. He was on his way to Alaska and he says, I would like to come by and see you. And I said, well, I'll be in the same place that I met you last year. And so when he came up this time, for some reason Roger reached for my hand and I reached for his and man, that was it. It was like love at first touch. That was love. It was just like a silence, you know, and oh my gosh. And we didn't even look at each other. It was just, oh my goodness, what happened here? And I was the type of person, I never wanted to get married, not way, way, way down the road, never have any children. And I wanted to see the world first and then do all that, you know, and. But that was it, that was love and you've been together ever since. Yeah. Well, the thing is about the love that the two of you have for each other is it had to persevere through quite a heck of a journey. So how did Roger's drug smuggling change the nature of your love and your relationship? Well, Lex, that remained steadfast. It endured and since Roger's been home, I think we've rekindled the love that we had when we first met. Yeah, what? But I think my faith, you know, my faith, my steadfast faith and also the fact that Roger and I communicated. We wrote letters, you know, he never complained. I know there were the children there. He never had mistreated me. I love this guy and we had a lot of experiences. It was just, even though I. He's good looking, charismatic, he's pretty, you know. Yeah, and he was adventurous, you know, and I, would you say that again? But yes, it was just, I know, you know, I missed him physically, but he was just, we were just so strong in spirit, you know, and we could talk to one another. Yep. Well, what was it like, Roger, when you're a free man seeing Mari for the first time in person again? I cried for three days. Everything, I had to look at a picture of her. I came home and there she prepared a meal for me and it was the old oak table that I'd redone and the chairs, the same one, and the green placemats and the same china that we had and the same silverware. And it just, just all of it just brought back the same paintings on the wall. It was just like unbelievable. After 35 years, she had all my clothes cleaned and my shoes shining and I put the shoes on and I walked out on the strings on this and the soles came off, but the shirts and all fit perfect and everything. So it was just wonderful. And just to see her and then just to think about, see her picture of her 50th birthday or her 60th birthday or her 70th birthday. I wasn't there. And the picture of her and with the children, it just, it was heartbreaking. And about the third day, I thought, man up, fella, I mean, you've got to. So I got over it and quit the tears. It was, everything was just pulsating with life. It was just unbelievable to get out of that place. It really was. Is there, do you regret the drug smuggling that took you away from the woman you love? Oh yes, 100%. Just, you know, I wouldn't have done it again if you don't think you're going to get caught. And it's just, no, it's just, I did it for money and I had everything in the world I wanted before I did that. So the adventure, I mean, it was one heck of an adventure for the two of you, for the both of you. Were you able to enjoy it or was it always danger? Was it always something that threatened your relationship, your love, your family? Or were you able to enjoy the adventure of it? You know, we'll all die. Life is short. And to live that kind of adventure. Well, whenever I did the first loot, I got $10,000. And that was just about, that was just about two years pay on the fire department take home. And I brought that home and. I put my hand over my mouth. I said, Roger, I can't believe this. All the money and money like, oh my, what in the world? Roger said, let's go have dinner. And so we went to the little restaurant that we would normally, we would go to, you know, and he said, and don't you dare look on the right hand side of the menu. He said, just order anything you want. And it was just, as we were in the restaurant, you know, it was just, we were giddy about it. Yeah, I was giddy about it. And. Were you afraid that, I mean, did you think about the fact that it's illegal and Roger can end up in prison? Oh, yes. Did you guys talk about it? Well, I just, I kind of thought I was bulletproof. I mean, they didn't catch you. I thought if they didn't catch you, you was all right. And it was hard to get you. It was hard to catch you in the air. So you never thought, hard to catch you in the air. I like it. I didn't know that if your friend told on you five years later, you'd still go to prison. That was a problem. I didn't know that. Did you guys ever talk about walking away? I asked Roger to walk away. And he says, I can't, Mario, just now, you know. And then of course, the amount of people that he began to support, the family and the gifts and the. The deals. The deals, yes, the deals. Big ones. Yes, and then you always want to do, what do you do with the money? So you want to, I guess you clean it up or you want to invest in an enterprise or in a business. Well, it just doesn't work. They know the source of it and they take it and run. Every one of them. Yeah. Yeah. But he was very generous, extremely generous and benevolent and. And when I started, I would ask about, I went to a lawyer and a good number of people in California at that time wanted to legalize marijuana back in 1973. And I went to a lawyer and I says, Mr. Lawyer, I put $100 on to say, what would they do if I caught me bringing marijuana across the border? He said, if you have a criminal record, I said, no, I've never had a speeding ticket, nothing, not even a traffic ticket. I said, he said, you work for the fire department? I said, no sir. I said, yes, sir. He said, you'll get probation. The worst you'll do is you'll get one year and you'll spend four months raking leaves on a military base. So my mother and my father died some years before and I brought mother and baby sister came out and I took them down to Disneyland and she said, what you doing, boy? I said, I'm hauling pot, mom. She said, how much you making? I said, I'm making $40,000 any day I want to go. And she said, what do they do if they catch you? And I told her, what the lawyer said. Four months at the most raking leaves, that's what do you think? She said, do you need a copilot, son? Yeah, money is money, yeah. So your relationship persevered through some big challenges. Is there advice you can give about what makes for a successful relationship? Oh, well, you know, I think the initial igniting, meeting someone, you know, that's the love. That's it. And that little fire, that fire just keeps burning and burning and burning. You can't put it out no matter what. It's the love fire. But it gets difficult. It's funny, the love fire. So you're saying the love fire is all it takes to persevere through the difficulty. Well, no, well, that's a huge part of it. And also I contribute my individual situation to in order to endure the prison years is my faith. Faith in God? Yes. And friends who were unconditionally still loved me no matter what, yes. So you had love around you in general. I did, and my children. They, you know, and that was a real purpose to guide them and to love them and to help them become citizens. What about you, Roger? What advice would you give? I just don't know how to do it, but I do know that you have to work on a relationship. Mara and I's had problems. I mean, we get really. You guys get in fights? Oh, yeah. That's pretty regular, but not, they don't let them last long, you know, but certainly we are so different. We're the same, and yet we're so different, yeah. Like little stuff? Little stuff, yes. And it might be big, but I usually win her over, you know? But anyhow, I just feel like Mara was always there. It was like she was my anchor. I was coming home. I was always coming home to her and the children. And you can see throughout my life, I'm working on getting there. Are you afraid for his life, by the way? Oh, yes. Oh, yeah, there are times, yeah. But you know, I had faith in him. He was an excellent pilot. For example, I always said, Roger, if the ship's going down, I'm jumping in the lifeboat with you because I know we're going to get to shore. You will save us. And so I had that faith in him, you know? I mean, he's a man, but yet he's the one you want to get into the lifeboat with. Definitely. But then there is, you know, Pablo Escobar, one of the most dangerous humans in history, plus the U.S. government. Yep. Worst by far. Very difficult, very difficult to get away. In terms of your faith, how has your faith helped you to be the woman you are in this relationship and seeing love the way you see it? Well, I think my faith gives me hope. I have lots of hope. It helps me to dwell on the good side. You know, when I ever meet someone and there's some negative, I try to see why they are like that or what's the source of all that. And I try to pull out the good. I really do. Not that I'm a goody goody, but that's what your faith does. You know, you see them as God sees us. You know? How has he changed over the years? Roger? Yeah. He's still the same. Actually, I like him better now. He's a little calmer. Yeah, that's crazy. Oh, yes. And happy to be, you know, at home, or he'll say, Mari, I am just so happy to be with you here in this condominium. I'm content. Because I used to call him my homing pigeon. I just have to let him fly. I couldn't, you know, he has to fly, but he always came home. Do you think about the end of this ride, our mortality? Do you think about your death? I do. Particularly, I'm going to have a heart valve replacement in about seven days where I could not make it. You know, it's a very serious operation. And I think about that very much. And I ask for peace. I just lost my brother about 10 days ago, so unexpectedly. And that really put, you know, makes you think of your mortality. Are you afraid? Somewhat, and yet not. Yeah. I want to live, Lex. I want to live, you know? This life is fun. Yes. Do you think about your death, Roger? I have visions. Visions, and they often happen very, very clear, like what I have seen in the future. Scientists might call it wormholes, or in the Old Testament they called it prophets, but I see sometimes into the future around the corner. It's clear as we're sitting right here. What's that look like? I was on a porch, and I believe I was in like Central America place. I was an old man with khaki pants and a white shirt. And it was a chair with a wide arms, and it was straight, and there was like the beams coming out above my head, and I'm on a porch. Bokunbi, yeah. And I come, I have out of the body experiences also. And I came out of my body, just, I just floated out of my body, and went into a veil, and like into a mist. And I believe that's probably why it happened. You talk about like it's in your past. This is your future. This is in my future. But this is something he has seen, you know, in the past. I've seen it in a vision. Yeah, in a vision. No, I know, but it's funny, just the tense you use, it happened, and yet it's something that will happen. Yes. Two. Both are true. It's just unbelievable that, and I don't know how many people have it, but I have it. I walked out of my body just like, just where I could come up to you and look, and set up on the radio. I used to be at work on the railroad, and I had them there. How do you explain that? What do you think, what the heck is going on in this universe that's possible? Oh, I don't know, but certainly, certainly a phenomenon which has happened. And there's a guy, Bill Monroe, that wrote the book on it, Out of the Body. He tells about it. And who was the guy that writes The Alchemist? Pablo Coelho. He has them also, just like that. And he tells about how it happens on him. Mine happened differently. But you certainly can come out of your body. What do you think the meaning of this life is, maybe from your faith, but also from just the amazing adventure that you lived through? And I'd wiggle my wings and he'd wiggle his and I'd fall in behind him and we might go 100, 200 miles. I'd land on some jungle strip or some banana plantation. And they'd fuel me up. I could eat steak in the night. It was just like treated royally. And I mean, take off the next morning whenever I wanted to. It was just like that was protected. And I was honored guest. It wasn't anything like in that movie, putting a gun to your head and taking your sunglasses and betting. So one time I complained to Jorge Ochoa that the runway was pretty short that they were using. And I went back down and it looked like Los Angeles International. They had bulldozers in there. Had that thing 5,000 feet long. Just like, just the next week it was all done. The jungle was gone and clay put up there. And all the while you were not afraid. You were treated like royalty. Yes, there I was. I was afraid when I landed in the United States. Well, maybe let's go back to the beginning. What was the first time you flew an airplane with drugs on it? Tell me the story of the first time you smuggled drugs. All right, I flew down to Jalapa, Veracruz with a Cessna 182. And we landed at the town. It was a lovely town and just an old town. Looked like Bible times. People, women were washing your clothes in the streets and with stone basins and the stream running through. I just was just dumbstruck. It was just so pretty. And I went in a church and a Catholic church and it had the stations of the cross all carved magnificent. I'd never seen that. And I come home and told Mary about that. That just almost brought tears to my eyes. It was so beautiful. And three o clock the next morning I went out to the airport and taxied down to the taxiway and there was a guard came out and wanted to know what I was doing. And I pulled out, I was on the fire department at Redondo Beach, California. So I pulled out my wallet and in it was the fire department badge. And oh, he shook my hand and was so glad. So I taxied on down there and we loaded up about 400 pounds in the plane. And came on back and I was running to headwinds more than I thought and I landed on a little strip. You're talking about on the way back? On the way back, on the way north after we loaded up early in the morning. And that's the only time I ever got vertigo. The mountains were coming down at a 30, 40 degree angle and the Milky Way was overhead. And somehow I wanted that airplane to be level with the stars. And it got me, it's a phenomenal pile of vertigo. It's the only time I ever had it was on that load. So anyway, the wind was on the nose of that system. I wasn't gonna make it to the dry lake where I had fuel. So I landed on a little bitty strip and there was a little house. It was caved in and it was a little boy named Lazarus, about six or seven years old. And he was herding some goats. So we put the marijuana in that house and the man stayed with it while I flew into some town and got fuel and came back and we sat down with the lunch that I brought back and little Lazarus sat there and ate with us and we had a good time. We loaded on back and came on home. Oh wow, I wonder where he is now. So what was it like to fly, maybe describe the details of, do you have to fly low? Is there details that are unique to this experience of flying an airplane with drugs on it, on board? All right, well, one of the mistakes that just thousands, hundreds and hundreds and thousands of pilots make, they don't stop at the border, going down and get their permit. Once you get a permit to be in Mexico, you've got it for six months. You can go anywhere, any fishing village, any little town, any little place, show them this and you're welcome. If you don't have that, you go straight to jail. So you go down there and you think, okay, they're gonna have fuel for me to come back and so forth. Oh, sorry, Senor, that had a rusty leak in it. We don't have any. Well, you better be able to go to town and get it. So that's what I did. And when I was coming back for several years, I would fly up at Mexicali and cross the border right at Calexico. I would act like I was landing on the Calexico side just after dark and then I'd zip across the border and I'd go over to the Salton Sea and go below sea level, 100 and something feet, I believe 170 feet, and come on up and go out there above Palm Springs and land at 29 Palms in the desert and put my stuff under a Joshua tree and fly into town and get my pickup and go on back out and get it. And that was fun. And then it got really dangerous. They had Operation Starlight, I believe was the name of it. And they called a lot of pilots coming across the border. So I changed it. And by that time I was flying bigger planes. I was flying Beach 18s. And I would refuel in Mulahe halfway down on the Baja Peninsula. And then over in the middle, 20 miles from the nearest road was a goat ranch where they milked goats and made cheese. And I would go there and unload the load coming up out of anywhere in Southern Mexico. And I would land there and a guy named Juan would put the marijuana under the trees and I'd fly into Mulahe and they'd wash my plane and gas it up and I'd eat a lunch and rent a room for a few hours and take a nap and a shower and then go back in the afternoon and fill up. And then I would go Northwest out of there and fly 200 miles off the coast of the island of Guadalupe. And from there I would fly on a more Northwestern heading about 300 miles out over the Pacific. And then I would come in behind the Santa Barbara Islands down low and then I'd come up and go out in the desert land. And I did that for the rest of their marijuana trips. What was the hardest part about flying those routes? The hardest part was getting good in marijuana. So the hardest part isn't the flying. No, it's the flying. It's just like driving your car down. But then I had people that would bring me on strips that were just unworthy of an airplane. Like when I'd land on a highway and in the rainy season, I would come back to land again and the guy wouldn't think about it. And he'd have like little hills on both sides and the wings were out there. Well, the grass and the weeds would grow up and it sounded like, I mean, it sounded like tearing the airplane apart when those wings hit. Mowing the grass down both shoulders of the airplane. The weeds would grow up high in the tropics. So some of that stuff was bad. And oh, getting bad gasoline and telling me that land here in the night and knock the wheels off when you land. Oh, you should have landed a little further up here, Senor, they ditched down, that sort of thing. What was it like landing on a highway and when did you have to land on the highway? I landed on the highway most of my life, most of the times. In Mexico, first time I went down, there was a place called Pichalingi and it had a 900 foot strip. And I would fly down and I'd carry gasoline wing with me and Maury and I would go to the grocery store and buy all kinds of little goodies and candies and toys to bring to the children. And that sand strip in the bend of a river was just too short to take off with a load. So there was a young man there named Pedro, must not weigh much over 100, maybe 120 pounds. And he'd get in a plane with me and he'd direct me 20, 30, 40 miles away to a highway. And the people walk in and the people would pull out in a two ton truck with a machine gun on it and a bunch of guys with arms with us and they'd block the road and then another one would block it up about a mile away. And I'd land right over that truck and they'd load me up and it looked like a bucket brigade with the marijuana coming. I'd shake hands with all of them and I'd take off right over the other trucks. And sometimes maybe 20, 30, 40 cars lined up. One time I remember a patrol car, a highway patrol car, he didn't have his lights on, took off right over him. And then when I started flying to Louisiana, the bridge over the Mississippi River, there were several contractors that went broke and that thing was out for years. And about five miles from the river was flashing red lights and a detour. And then they swamp on both sides of it and the middle of it we're growing up with 20 feet trees and that was like an international runway from anywhere in the world. So I landed on that and over and over those red lights just like the end of a runway. And then the next morning we'd go out there and scrub the marks off the highway where I'd landed before daylight. Wow. Let's go to somebody you've known well, somebody who's also a drug smuggler is Barry Seal. Who is Barry Seal? How did you meet him? Barry Seal is a friend of mine. Murray and I and the children went down in Honduras and we went up Lake Azul, I believe it was, and we were looking at a ranch to buy. I was looking for something in Central America where I'd have a halfway place. Oh, it was lovely. We stayed up there for some days and our clothes got muddy and we went in the river and all kinds of things. So we got to San Pedro Sula and we was going back to New Orleans. So we went to the cleaners to get our clothes and most all of them was in there. And they go, oh, Senor, they'll be ready tomorrow morning. We're not ready now. Well, the plane leaves at nine o clock or whatever. So I told Murray for her and the children to go into the airport because it'd be easier for one just on a standby flight. So I went to the laundromat for the clothes and they were ready and there was a pile of them. And I put them on my back and got in a taxi and the old taxi would drive him with it and I'd give him a hundred dollars to go faster and he just blew his horn more rapid. So finally we got to the airport and I jumped out and ran around on the tarmac and here's a brand new 727 taxiing out. Oh no. How do you make sense of why the heck we're here? I don't know. It's just kind of like who you are. Even when I was a child, I was like, I'm different from other people. You know? And just as a boy, I was, like I had a... Could you put into words how you were different or it was just the feeling? Yeah, like my brother, I mean, he kept his hands clean and his shoes shining. Here I was barefooted catching a wild hog or a rattle on a horse trying to get it down. I saw pictures of you climbing a tree recently. When I first got out of prison, always something like that. So I don't know. It's just that, and I noticed that something about me is sometimes in prison, there'd be a knife fight. And people just, you see them rough guys that turn white from it. I just kind of almost like smile. I mean, if they come at me, I turn white and get away. But it doesn't bother, those things, they still didn't bother me. I just, prison didn't bother me. So you don't know what the heck the meaning is. You just know you're a bit different than the others. Yeah, I might be a little bit kooky. Well, maybe the whole point is you want to realize, you want to let that madness flourish, that uniqueness flourish. That's the whole point of life. We're all different in our, in very interesting little ways. And the more different you are, you want to let that, you want to let that become, you want to let it be its full. It's like a garden, all the different flowers. You did mention you weren't sure if there's a free will or not. Do you think it's all predetermined? Or do you think we make our choices? No, we definitely make our decisions. I just said, if it is, I hope that, but I know that we make our decisions. Yes, I agree. And I know that we are spirits that are living in this flesh. That's beyond a shadow of a doubt for me. If you walk out of your body and have out of body experience, you will know it. So the body is just the temporary container for something much bigger. The spirit lives on eternally with no beginning and no end. And that's hard to fathom. Yeah, this is just a little, this is a shell to contain that spirit. This is the way we work on earth. But yeah, I know it. I'm an eternal being. So are you. Do you think there's a why to it? Do you think there's a meaning to this life? Well, I think the why is beyond my capability of understanding. It's someone greater than me. I don't understand it, but it's awesome. I just know that it's awesome. And one day we will know the answers. Once we get to that crossover to the other side, I think we will understand clearly. It says, you know, now we see through a glass darkly, but then when we are face to face with God, we will understand. And until we know, let's just enjoy this beautiful life while we got it. Absolutely. And we're meant. That was my gift. I love everybody and everything I do. And it just, and I'm sorry, if I put a stumbling block in anybody's way, I wouldn't want to, but these are these things that when I just think about, oh, what a hypocritical world we live in though. Like most anybody, I'd say, listen, okay, he's a drug dealer. And I would say most of them had committed adultery. That's a cardinal sin. And yet they move, throw rocks at me for moving a marijuana, cocaine across the road. Yeah. It's just, if you saw the two different things, you'd say, what a terrible difference it is. But we become conditioned with this mad society that we have. You mentioned that your daughter, Miriam, wrote you a poem. Do you mind reading it? I'd be glad to. I was doing 11 years up in Lombok Penitentiary, maximum security prison for parole violation for possession of marijuana in 1977. They should have given me six months, but they gave me 11 years because they wanted me for what they call silent beef. Anyhow, while I was in that dungeon, I received a letter from my daughter, Miriam. It's called Daddy's Poem. A year ago, I became a poet when I wrote your birthday prose. And here I am today, ready to give it another go. First, I would like to wish you a very happy birthday to be and to thank you so very much for without you, I would not be me. Secondly, I want to say that your support has been immense. It has been true, honest, loving, and free of all pretense. Thirdly, it goes without saying, your love has surpassed all my wrongs and you always made me smile with one of your old country songs. I can remember on Cuervo, Daddy, with you holding me in your arms, as you sang Jim Reeves songs and talked about the farm. I can see you walking through the door from one of your travels far and wide and the thought of you coming home, Daddy, kept a twinkle in our eyes. I can smell you as I did when I used to climb into your bed and you would talk to me again about one of the adventures that you led. I can see me and Mario asleep in one of your airplanes extraordinaire and remembering wondering to myself why there wasn't an available chair. I remember having to meet you and worrying that you wouldn't be there, but you would pop from behind some counter and give us all a happy scare. You gave us presents in Key Biscayne and hotels pleasure galore and three dozen roses that we came through the airport door. I can see your face in Amsterdam with the luggage carousel and you look like a boy with a secret that you were just dying to tell. You taught me mathematics in the sands of far away places and taught me to sail and we left without any traces. We climbed glaciers in Argentina and saw the blue of the beautiful caves and witnessed the majestic beauty of such a juggling maze. I learned how to change gears on the dirt roads of Brazil. We ate hot dogs in Paraguay, a memory we smile over still. We talked about lions, elephants and bears on a Hacienda in Uruguay, but decided it was better if the Europe we did fly. Oh, the old world and all its luxury, what a good time it was. From South America to the Krosnopolsky, I think we fell in love. The European jaunt, well, it is considered a book in itself but it's a story about beauty and knowledge, suspense and worldly wealth. We went from Holland to Sweden, we went from France to Spain and I promise you I have no regrets. I would definitely do it all again. I would see the world with you anytime, sir. There's no doubt in my mind because being by your side, daddy, always ensures a wild good time. So our paths took a turn and we're back in the US of A, but life here isn't so bad and I'm plumb content to stay. I'm happy to be near you, although I'm not as close as I was before, but because of your love and encouragement, I've been able to open new doors. I'm grateful to be in school and I'm genuinely happy where I am. And I even like when you call and tell me to study for the next exam. What a life you've given me, daddy. It's a tremendous and a magical gift. We already have so many stories to tell, there are far too many to list. But I want to thank you again this day with a very big happy birthday to you and to tell you just a few more things that I knew in my heart to be true. That I love you, daddy, with all of your wrongs and your rights. That you're ahead of our family and you've kept us all bound tight. That you have a honest love in your heart for God and all mankind. And you truly do believe in yourself when you say it will all be fine. I know you will be there to catch me if ever I waver a slip and I know I'd want you as captain on any sinking ship. I also know a new chapter is written. It's almost time to move on. It's time to sail another sea and to witness a brand new dawn. It'd be good to see you at the helm again as you point out our destination, the laugh and dance on the upper deckers while the boat glides through. It'd be good to see you on the go as I know you like to be and to know you can open any door without any key. But while we revel in our days together, we will know better than to hurry because as you told me many times, life is an incredible journey. Wow, that's beautiful. Yeah. Roger, I'm really honored that you would take the time to visit me in Texas and to sit down and talk with me. Thank you so much, Roger. Thanks so much, Mary. Thank you. Thank you, it was a pleasure. It's been a real pleasure. Yes. Beautiful. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Roger Reeves and thank you to Noom, Allform, ExpressVPN, Four Sigmatic and 8sleep. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. And now let me leave you with some words from Pablo Escobar. All empires are created of blood and fire. Thank you for listening. I hope to see you next time. So I'm waving to the pilot and he's a young fella. He waves back. Then I see Murray's face in the cockpit and the nose goes down where he puts on brakes and he laughs and he puts some stairwell out. And I run for the stairwell and he pulls it back up and goes like a hitchhiker going to pick you up and go again. Then he put it out and I got on and the whole crowd clapped and I'm coming home with that load of clothes. So I go way down in the middle and the plane's full and Miriam, my daughter, was about nine years old then and she was sitting in the middle and by the window was Barry Seal. Of course I didn't know it. And I sat in the middle and we took off and the wheels come up with clunk and then I got up about 5,000 feet and we had a little clunk and she said, what was that, daddy? And I said, he just turned on his autopilot. And that fella reached over and I looked at him. I said, he looks like CIA or FBI, something. He ain't supposed to be here. Clear blue eyes, gentleman looking man. And he said, you fly these things? I said, I got a few hours, mister. He said, I'll fly them too or something. And he said, my name's Barry Seal. And he reached over Miriam and shook hands and we got to talking and I thought, there's no choice of seats on this. It's just open seating so I don't believe him one bit. And he started talking about, he just got out of jail that morning. Just got out of prison. And I said, uh huh. And he told me that he'd been a pilot with the TWA and this and other. And told me what he was for. So we had a nice conversation for a couple hours to New Orleans. I didn't believe him. So he got off in front of us and what a crowd of people to meet him. An old mother and a wife and little children hanging on to him, crying and hugging and kissing him. I said, he was telling the truth. So I reached over and gave him a little piece of paper. I had Murray to write it out with our address. I said, Barry, I might have some work for you. Come on out. What was he in jail for? He got caught with 100 kilos of cocaine in a small plane. And so he served a year. And that was from Colombia? I don't know where it come from. He got caught in Honduras, probably refueling. But he'd been in prison down there before for bringing explosives to the Cuban Contras. And he lost his job with the airlines. And then later on, I found out he was ex CIA and George Bush Sr.'s protege and had a thousand parachute jumps and was there. He was a hot shot model. There's a million questions I wanna ask here. But maybe can we linger on a little bit longer? What was your relationship with him like? You were a drug smuggler. He's a drug smuggler. Your friends, how often do you guys talk? How often do you work together? What was the relationship like? Well, I'll back up and finish where I started off there. I gave him the things, Barry, I may have some work for you. I know I got some work for you. And I said, come out to Santa Barbara. And so I don't know, a week or two later, he flew out and went to our house and stayed with us a couple of days. And I had a almost brand new Aero Commander 690B. That thing with turbo prop and it was hot. It was the hottest thing I'd ever had. So I said, let's go Barry, let's see what you can do. So I'm sorry I said that. We got about 10,000 feet. And he was like one of them blue angel pilots. He rung that thing out. And I said, that's enough. And then he did a falling leaf. That's where you cut the engines and the plane falls from side to side. And I saw Bob Hoover do that in the air show once. And that's the only person I ever saw do it. And I was, my hands was white knuckle hanging onto the seat. You shut off the engine? Yeah, he shut off the engines and landed flying side by side like this. How do you explain that? Was he just a wild man or was he sufficiently skilled to work? He was sufficiently skilled. Absolutely. He knew what he was doing. I can get a plane from one spot to another and I guess I'm known as a good pilot, but that guy, it was an aerobatic. So anyway, he stayed with us a couple of days. And then I told him, I said, this plane needs tanking. And I said, I got some work down in Columbia. It needs to come back to Louisiana. And I need 2,500 mile range. He said, I got somebody in Mena, Arkansas to do that and keep their mouth shut. So I gave him $10,000 and he flew away. And in a few days he called me and says, come to my house in Baton Rouge. So I went out to his house in Baton Rouge and I stayed with him for a few days. And that plane was tanked. I mean, beautiful from stem to stern. I could went from Bolivia to Canada with it. So then I hired him to fly. And he was funny. I paid him a million dollars a trip. I paid him $2,000 a kilo, so about a million dollar trip. And I didn't get paid until the people received it. They had to ship it to Chicago and New York and then the money come back. So it was a couple of two or three weeks pipeline. Well, I always had to pay him before he'd go again. I mean, and he barely ache. I mean, he had moaning room. So one time I gave him a million dollars and I put it in a box real nice. So how big is a box that contains a million dollars? So we're talking about a hundred dollar bills? A hundred dollar bill, it's not very big. You can put it in a large briefcase. It weighs exactly 10 kilos. Each bill weighs a gram, so you can weigh your money and almost get it exactly right. 20 something pounds is a million dollars. 22 pounds. 22 pounds. A hundred dollar bills. But in one dollar bills, it's one ton, 2,200 pounds. We didn't even accept them. Were you the one that introduced Barry Seal to Pablo Escobar? No, I didn't introduce him at all. And our deal was that you don't meet my people. I mean, we just kind of crossed your working for me to fly the airplanes. So he wanted these Panther conversions that cost $400,000 each with a storm scope and radar. I bought anything you want. What's that mean, sorry to interrupt, Panther conversions? Panther conversion was, these people called Panther, they took everything out from the firewall, the instruments and all and converted them and put Q tip propellers on them full bladed and you very quiet and the CIA developed those in Southeast Asia for running behind the lines. And that's where Barry had flown those things so he knew about them. So that's what he wanted and that's what we got him. How does that connect to Pablo? And so he worked for you and you got those upgrades. I think he flew about 30 loads for me and then I got arrested and was for everything in the world. Got 35 years sentence. But let me back up a little bit. Barry was our friend. Mari and I are both friends. We should pause real quick and say Mari is your wife and hopefully we'll convince her to join us in a little bit. She's the love of your life and sort of she weaves in and out of many of these stories that you tell. Yes, she was there. She was behind the scenes. But I kept her out of it completely. And then also you mentioned Mariam as your daughter. Yes, our son was a baby. And I remember we went out to a festival, was my favorite restaurant in Carl Gables. Oh God, it was good. And Barry knew about it. Anyhow, we went out to dinner and so we came back and there was no rooms. So Barry will spend the night with us. So he goes to our hotel room with us and we got two big beds in the Omni Hotel and he lays over there and he gets down to his stripy undershorts and his T shirt and he puts the baby up on his belly and gives him the bottle and said, mm, ain't that good, Red? Oh my, my. And he just feeds the baby. We laugh and talk and that's how close we were that we could all stay in a hotel room together. And would you say he's a good man? Oh, wonderful man. A gentleman, Southern gentleman. Just looked after his mother, his family, everybody around him, everybody loved Barry. He just had a little smile on his face always. So you got arrested and then what happened to Barry? Well, Barry knew the people that unloaded. Of course he sent the cars down and all that. So he met the unloader, a guy named Lito, Luis Carlos Bustamante of Venezuelan. So he just kept on flying. But he, I believe he had three of my airplanes at $400,000 a piece and they owed me some money. Well, he collected a lot of that and gave Marie the money and put it in his safe and took her to his house and all after I got arrested and sent a lawyer in. He got me the best lawyer in the country, Albert Krieger. He was head of the defense team for all of America. Wonderful man. Can you tell the story of the months that led up to Barry's assassination? What did you know, what did you sense, what did you think? Okay, when I got out of prison, I hadn't been out long. I was eating breakfast and there was Ronald Reagan's face right in the television. We have absolute proof that the communist Sandinista government is in the cocaine running business. And there was that fat lady, the C126 on the runway with the belly down and I thought, oh God, he had done it. So I had heard that Barry might've been working with him. So it wasn't long before. Working with? With the DEA or whoever, he was no longer on our side. So can you clarify how you got that from the Reagan making a statement about we've heard. Okay, there was his plane. There was Barry's plane and okay, on the way north, we could stop in Nicaragua and land on a military base or on a base that they used as crop dusters and all and refuel and so that shortened our trip. We'd go further into the jungle and come up and that was what Pablo Escobar and Ochoa and them and they was associates with the people in Nicaragua. So Barry was, if that plane was there, that means Barry was feeding the DEA information. He was working with them at that time. But let me back up a little bit. When I was flying and I told Barry, we would refuel in Trange Airplane, the loads in Belize where I had a spot up there and then that's when they told me we can refuel in Nicaragua and then you fly all the way and Barry couldn't believe it. He says, all right, but I wanted you to land. I had a place in Louisiana for $10,000 that I could unload and the sheriff and all them was paid off. And he said, no, no, no. I can't get caught in Meena, Arkansas. I said, what do you mean you can't get caught in Meena, Arkansas? You get caught anywhere. He said, I can't, but it's gonna cost you $50,000 every time my wheels touch the ground. Why, can you explain why he can't get caught in Meena, Arkansas? He said he was hooked up with him at the very top and he even said, I'm gonna have dinner with the governor tonight. That's at that time. Meena, Arkansas. Mr. Bill Clinton. Undoubtedly. And it's like, did Bill Clinton, did you give him any money? And I said, no, I never gave the man any money, but it was like the money that I had that went to Grand Cayman Islands and I told my lawyer, I said, I never touched that money. He said, you don't have to fondle it to be guilty. So. So what, I mean, there's a lot of conspiracy theories around the relationship between Barry Seal and the Clintons. Absolutely. What evidence do we have? What would you say from your best understanding of what was the relationship between Bill Clinton and Barry Seal? Barry said, and he knew that he couldn't get caught in Meena, Arkansas. And when that movie was gonna come out, be called Meena, somebody stopped it. I mean, they stopped it dead in the tracks for two or three years and the producer even quit. You mean the American Made with Tom Cruise movie? It wasn't American. It was gonna be called Meena? It's the name that was written and produced in Meena. And waiting on Hillary to be elected, they would not let that movie out. And that movie was changed drastically. But to push back on that, that doesn't mean there's truth there. That means they were worried about the power of the conspiracy theory, which stuck. Exactly. But I don't know. I mean, you know, some conspiracy theories, just because they're popular doesn't mean they're true. And ones that, but it also doesn't mean they're not true. And there's ones that are not very popular that could be true. But that one really stuck. I mean, what's your sense? Well, I paid one and a half million dollars for Barry to land at Meena, Arkansas. So I was pretty well assured that he couldn't get caught. And I said, well, I can't get caught in Columbia. We can't get caught in Nicaragua. I guess we got a license. So we went for it. Oh, so when you say I can't get caught, just to clarify, there's a sense where this is a safe place to land. Yes, like completely safe. So you don't think he was referring to some kind of, you know, like my grandfather who fought in World War II would talk about bullets can't hit him. So it's almost like believing. He was taking that $50,000 and giving it to somebody. And Barry was honest. So he wasn't just taking it from me because he was making a million dollars. He didn't care for the $50,000. Oh man, taking the story forward, the months leading up to his assassination, what would you understand why he was assassinated? Who were the players involved? Maybe could you have stopped it? Well, I'll tell you, after I saw Reagan's face on the television saying we have the absolute proof, the phone rang and it was Barry. I hadn't heard from him in a couple of years. He said, I'm coming out tonight, Roger. And I, oh boy. So he came out and he said, I'll meet you in this French restaurant. I don't even know it in Santa Barbara. And I walked in, there's about 20 or 30 people in there. And they was all 30, 40 years old, women with plastic or leather skirts and me in the blue jeans. And I looked around and Barry was at the back. He was leaned up, he had gained weight. And I walked up and I said, Barry, you wired. He said, no. I said, well, I'm not gonna talk to these DE agents. He said, every one of them. So. Oh, with jeans and skirts, I like it. I said, well, Barry, I'm gonna set you and you just talk to me, buddy, and tell me what's on your mind. And he sat there and he just went to talking. And he told me about, he was left holding a bag. And it. What do you mean by that? Like that nobody's supported him? Well, I think it's something or another. He was, and I don't know this. I mean, this is just what happened, putting it all together. He had some CIA buddies that was pretending we're going to supply all of our Northwood arms. And with that, you can land cocaine back here by the ton. So he's taking his little planes and putting some AK 47s and maybe ammunition or whatever, and takes it down to the Contras against the Communist Party of Nicaragua, where we've been landing. And Oliver North was involved in this. So when all that, and so his CIA buddies was certainly involved, and we know they were. And Barry had been in the CIA earlier when he first got out of school. So when, as I say, the shit hit the fan, they all fled and left Barry holding the bag. The CIA and the DEA. Yeah, not the DEA, the CIA. The DEA wasn't in on it. The CIA was selling that cocaine, bringing it in. And. Just to clarify, what's Iran Contra scandal? What was the alleged involvement of the CIA in using drug trade to fund things? What do you know? What do you think is true? What should we know? Well, I know what I knew was true, that Barry was taking a small amount of arms back to Central America and giving them to whoever Oliver North group were. Who's Oliver North? Oliver North was a colonel that got implemented and almost brought the government down. And so they said, all right, we're getting the guns from Iran and we're taking cocaine to pay for them. And since Congress won't give us money to fight this war, we're gonna circumvent it. So that was a whole thing. So it was a CIA's effort to circumvent the funding mechanisms of government by selling drugs. Yes, but it was a handful of renegade CIA agents that were Barry's friends that was making a load, a load of money, tons of it come up. If you would like to read the book, The Big White Lie, The CIA and the Crack Cocaine Epidemic, the CIA put, according to this, the book and Michael Levine, I didn't remember his name last time I talked, wrote that book and he was a head CIA agent, he was a head DEA agent that exposed this. And the CIA tried to kill him. And he says, they put crack cocaine, they developed, their chemists developed crack. And they put it in every city in the United States on one weekend. So they were bringing it up by the tons and that's for sure. And Barry was bringing it. Can I ask you a small tangent question? Do you think the public should trust the CIA and the DEA? Do you think they're mostly good people that are carrying out a good mission? Because this kind of makes it sound like there's renegade agents that are just doing whatever the hell they want and with sometimes no regard for human life. Well, that's certainly true. But that's not everybody in there. That's just, sometimes you get a few policemen in the department that do these things. I don't believe, I believe that our government is good. I think we've got some fools running it. I don't know how we get them there, but I don't think I know. Okay, so what was Barry's involvement here? So Barry leaned back in that chair and he told me that he got caught with one and a half tons and he bellied it in the runway in Nicaragua and had cameras flashing inside and out. And he flew it back to Homestead with an agent there and he brought the agent over, Jake Jacobson. Really nice fellow, I think he was a crop duster. And we'd have got along if we'd have been on the right side. And so we sat there and drank Chevy's Regal until I got pie eyed and Barry told me about it. He said that he went to see Edwin Meese. He flew his, he got out on bail and he flew his Lear jet up to Washington and went in to see the Attorney General, Edwin Meese. And they run him out of the office. The next day he went back and said, I have absolute proof that the CIA is bringing tons of cocaine or they're running tons of cocaine into the United States. And Edwin Meese put him up with this agent Jacobson. I believe it was. And they went down and got one and a half tons. And on the way back, they bellied it in and Pablo Escobar and some of the other ones on general there in Nicaragua, you can see them toting it from one plane to the other in the book called The Big Kings of Cocaine. It's got a mention of me too. And also the other one has a mention of me in it. Said I'm in more files for the DEA than Noriega. So who was wanting to get rid of Barry? Is that, who wanted to get rid of Barry more? The cartels or the CIA? The cartel. But so Barry leaned back and he told me the story. And the tears came down between his fingers as he put his hands over his eyes. And he said, I just couldn't do it, Roger. I just couldn't do three life sentences. So I've told him everything. I went to Congress and I've testified before Congress. He testified before Congress for all these things that he had done. And he said, I told him all about you, but you're under my umbrella. You got to testify with me before grand jury in Miami. And so the guy said, you can come down, the DEA said you can come down tomorrow with Mari, first class, or I'll take you down in chains. And if you don't testify with Barry, the only place you'll ever see your wife and family again is in a federal prison visiting room. Was that a difficult conversation? Oh, my guts was just like ice water. I can't testify against my friends. I just can't do it. How am I going to do it? I just, I can't work with people. And he was honest with me. How am I going to testify against them? I can't spend the rest of my life in a federal prison. What on earth, what a mess, Barry, you've got me into. So. Is that a kind of betrayal there? Yes, but it's still, I wish he left me out of it. I understand him getting in such a mess that he told, because if the CIA and whoever else was behind him betrayed him, then he's going to tell everything. So I says, all right, I'll be in Miami. So Mari and I flew down first class. And I went to a lawyer, one of the biggest lawyers in Miami. And I said, man, I am in a mess. This fellow's told everything and I've got to say something, but I'm not a snitch, man. I mean, what can I do? And he said, well, being a snitch is like being pregnant. You either are or you're not. And he says, I don't represent snitches, but if you want to fight this case, I'll do it for $600,000. And boy, my face turned red. Well, I'm not a snitch. He said, well, that's what you're talking about. He said, let me tell you something. If you go in there and say one thing and sign that paper and you don't tell them everything you know, then they will convict you of everything you've ever done and you tell them. So you can't do it. So I said, Barry, I'm having trouble with a lawyer. Give it, I'll go to Mari, let's go. He said, all right, use my lawyer. And he gave me his card, the lawyer's card. So Mari and I went to the festival restaurant that night and Barry and Debbie came in. She was dressed pretty and Barry wasn't. So we was already about finished. So we had dessert together. And I said, Barry, they're going to kill you, friend. He said, no, they ain't going to kill me. So and so, such and such is gone. And this and the other. I said, Barry, they're going to kill you, man. You can't deny it. And I said, I didn't tell him I wasn't going to testify. So I hugged his neck. I really, like, and we fled to Brazil. But I took Mari and the children and went to Brazil. So you decided there you're not going to stay. I knew, I didn't know what I could do. I talked to a lawyer. I mean, I just didn't, I didn't know what I could do, but the best in Miami said what he told me. So I had to go. And you went to Brazil. We went to Brazil. Did you have a conversation with anybody at the cartel? I mean, that's such an interesting moment that tests the man's character to not snitch. And did you have a conversation with anybody? No. Pablo with, about it. Not at all. So it's just understood. I just didn't, couldn't do it. But how many men like you are there? Not many. I had all my friends testified against me. I had 11 friends and every one of them put their finger up. Roger did it. And I was facing life, continuing criminal enterprise care. And still you couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it. Did you ever get respect from the cartels for that, from the people in the cartel? Oh, there was a whole time I got back and stuff. They owe me money and I can't get it. So. Well, that's about money. I just mean about human beings. Oh, I think so. I mean, I've been back down there and I've been welcomed. I have my contact. And when I was in Brazil, I was trying to get this money. They owe me three and a half million dollars. So I called up there and he was going to pay me. Oh, I got 600,000 today and I'll get you some more tomorrow. And then the next week I called, hey, hey, got great news, great news. Barry Seale has been killed. So, oh no. And I went back to the hotel. We was up in the northern part of Brazil and where was it, Marty? It's been quite a job. Yeah. And so I went back and I told Mary and Miriam and they cried and I cried. I really cried. How is that great news from the cartel perspective? Well, now there's no case against me and him and them. Do you know who killed them? Yes. I'll tell you about that story. On the first load I did, I landed at a banana plantation and it was raining and it was a muddy strip, clay. And they put the 300 kilos of cocaine and then the ugliest man you could imagine, named Ronaldo got in there with a Mac 10 and he was making sure I took it to Louisiana. So. This is many years before. Yeah, a couple of years before. So anyway, we took off and the mud got up in the wheel well so thick until the wheels wouldn't come up. Well, I'm going 200 miles an hour instead of 300 miles an hour with wheels coming down. Well, I can't go back there. If I do, I'm gonna be in the same situation until the sun dries it out in a few days. And so, but in Belize, I had a runway that had been used for $10,000 used to refuel. So I told the guy, listen, we got to land in Belize to refuel. No, no, no, we put the Mac 10 and I'll shoot you. Go ahead, fool, you're gonna die too. So it was in a term. So. He wasn't just ugly, he was also angry. He was a bad, bad killer. And so he's the one to actually kill Barry. The one that went up on the first load with me. And Ronaldo, and he's doing life. He's just a killer. Yeah, he's doing life in Louisiana. I wonder who, is it known who made that decision? The younger Ochoa brother, I understand, Fabio, which one paid for the hit. I don't know that, but that's what I've heard and it probably sounds about right. He's done in Jessup, Georgia, doing a long, long time. I think he's about to get out. He's been in 30 years or whatever. The movie American Made. What do you think that movie got right? What did it get wrong? Almost everything wrong. It was disgustingly wrong. Okay, which parts? Can you maybe elaborate? It's about Barry Seal and it just didn't even, it was nothing, whoever wrote it had no idea who Barry Seal was. They sat in a rocking chair and just tried to think of what was some baby bashing drug dealer doing. And it's just like, God, you just don't have any idea of the spirit of the man. So they wanted just to try to tell a fun story without actually studying the story. They didn't know him, they just had no idea. And Barry was such a nice person, such a really nice gentleman person. They talked to you or no? No. The people that made the movie. And I see all these people telling Barry never met him. They telling all about him. I think that's just ridiculous. And for one thing, for his character coming out of warehouses and all that, that was just like ugly. And then down in Columbia, putting a gun to his head, going to take his sunglasses and then he put $25,000 million worth of cocaine on his plane. And then they're going to bet $100 he don't have enough room to take off. That's just insane. I mean, just the whole thing. And then he's talking to the DEA agents when he's coming up. You don't know what frequency they own, how he's got five planes and they all split when the DEA comes out. These are just somebody just fantasy. But those are like, those are details of the man, details of the story. Is there some big profound things they missed about just this whole period? But that's something that's really important to you that was missed. Yes, they just tried to sensationalize on little things that people remember. And it's just not true. It was just like a business deal and good people and good airplanes and good flying. And it was like a good watch that was made. It just clicked and it just went on. And they missed all of that. They tried to make it sound like it's something very ugly. Do you think it was a story that could have been told way better and still be a hell of a good story? Oh my goodness, yes. Well, there's a series called Chernobyl done by HBO. And because I have sort of family connected to that period, they did an incredible job of being historically accurate and only not being historically accurate when it helped the story, only in those rare cases. When they on purpose left the story to make it easier for people to understand. But it was still somehow accurate. And even though all the actors were British actors speaking English with a British accent,

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