羅傑·格拉西：史上最偉大的柔術選手

Lex Fridman Podcast #343 – Roger Gracie: Greatest Jiu Jitsu Competitor of All Time Machine transcription by Qwen3-ASR 0.6B (MLX, local, Apache-2.0). May contain recognition errors. The following is a conversation with Hodger Gracie, widely considered to be the greatest jiu-jitsu competitor of all time. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. We got Bambi for HR services, Mizaname for style, Blinkist for nonfiction and Athletic Greens for nutrition, delicious nutrition. Choose wisely, my friends. And now onto the full ad reads. As always, no ads in the middle. I try to make this interesting, but if you skip them, if you must. Sinfully with the regret in your heart, skip them. You don't have to have regret in your heart. Let go of regret, live without regret, my friends. Please still check out the sponsors. I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will too. 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Anyway, it's it's the way I guarantee to have like a nutritional basis on which I can do on top of which I can do all kinds of crazy stuff, all the nutritional diet stuff I do, whether it's eat once a day or fast or doing long runs like twelve fifteen miles, doing long stretches of mental work, just all the crazy stuff I do, or when I do carnivore, it just ensures that I am getting the basic nutrients into my body. It's like a amazing multivitamin, but it does just. A lot more than that, and they'll give you one month supply official another thing that's essential. Thing that I take every day when you sign up at athleticgreens dot com slash lex. Take care of your body and mind, friends. It's the only one of each that you got. This is the Lex Friedman podcast to support it. Please check out our sponsors in the description. And now dear friends, here is Hodger Gracie. Let's start with possibly the greatest match in jiu-jitsu history. Your second match against Buccecha. Let's go through the details. Let's go through the whole thing. So the walk leading up to it, you always do this walk, this epic walk. You posted on Instagram, Hensel posted on Instagram. This calm walk towards the mat. Well, let's go to that match in particular. What was going through your mind? You've been away from competition, facing probably one of the greatest and at that time many people considered the greatest jiu-jitsu competitor of all time in Buccecha. Here is the old man, the old timer getting back out there. What were you thinking? Yeah, I think that's the first time since probably I got my black belt that I was in the favorite walk into a fight. I have to say, like a lot of people thought, consider him the favorite. I mean, understandable, you know I was out of competition for a while. He was just winning everything. So you know, saying about the walk like for me, you know the fight starts way before the referee say go. You know, it's it's all the focus and concentration. That I think it's very important for me to start before like you know I almost walk blind to the mat. Many times I pass like great friends and I couldn't see anyone. You know they trying to talk to you and I am like I am one hundred percent focused on my opponent already. I thought that I cannot even see him in front of me. So I think that for me was always a very important to try to. Clear my mind out from everything. Are you visualizing the opponent? Not at that time. Is there what's what's in your head? Is it like a calm river with birds chirping? What is blank? Just blank. Darkness. Yeah, darkness. Okay, and that's what we see in that calmness. It's just blankness. How hard is it to achieve that blankness? It's difficult to say because I think I don't remember when I'll say probably as a black belt I try to focus like that not to think because. It's probably something you learn. Is the more you think, the more nervous you get, and there is nothing that you are going to gain by thinking of the fight or the possibilities. What you know what you can do, what can go wrong, what can go right because it's unpredictable. You have absolutely no idea. It's impossible to predict the fight. And you discover that if you just let those nervous feelings go and empty your mind, it actually is pretty effective. It is it makes you feel better. It's you know you you kind of control your emotion, control the adrenaline on your body up to a level, so it it absolutely helps you you know focus in the fight. I've learned that in jiu-jitsu and in general in life. That whenever something feels really shitty, you can just like take that thought and not think about it. Like I do that like on long runs or like a fast run or yeah in jiu-jitsu especially I getting older out of shape like that feeling of exhaustion. Well, you can always get to the feeling of exhaustion. You can just not think about it. Yeah, not think about being exhausted. Yeah, just and that somehow relaxes you. I think maybe in the face of exhaustion, all the fear start to creep in. Maybe your muscles tighten up. I don't know. This is for the the amateur jiu-jitsu person. But it's kind of funny how you can just take that thought and let go of it. So you get as a black belt competitor, you get used to you get good at letting go of any thoughts. Yeah. When you mention to exhaustion is, I mean that's another good example of it. It's you know there is a lot of times in the fight you are getting tired and you are getting pretty tired. So it's like the last thing you want to think of it is how tired you are. It doesn't matter because it doesn't. What are you going to quit? I mean, it doesn't matter. Yes, how tired you are. It's yeah, there is no value thinking about it. That's not value. You just have to go through it. So when you are like, you know many minutes into the match and you are slowly moving as you sometimes do tying your belt catching your breath, you are not thinking about anything. You are trying to let go of thinking. I am trying to like to save everything to the fight like nothing goes to waste. It's you know every move unnecessarily. It's it's just going to make you more tired or it's going to take something out of you. Like you know I try to calculate every single move I make save as much energy as I can so I can fully you know be focused one hundred percent in the fight with no waste especially energy wise. And that's instinctual like minimizing the amount of moves. You are not like explicitly thinking should I do this or not. It's just just don't move unless it's absolutely required. Yeah. Because fight you you cannot really, there is no really time to think much you know so it's your instinct at playing is like it's. You know you already have your you know your weapons. Let's say you know the the things that you do at it's just wait for the perfect moment. The beauty of it is you know there is the right moment to everything. If you feel one second too late, doesn't work or you get messy. So it's you know you are trying to catch that moment. That is you know and for that you have to be fully focusing what you are doing because one one second you you out it won't work. But you are not exactly known as somebody that moves super quickly. So the so the moment. It's not about how quickly you move. It's about the right moment. So you move slowly. Yeah, yeah, it's not like it's speed. It's not like you have to move the speed of light. It's it's the move itself at that precise moment. It doesn't have to be super fast because your opponent's not moving super fast. You know so it's it's a combination of moving between you and him. I mean the same thing happens in in judo and the movement can be really small. Yeah, it's just judo is a bit more explosiveness. You know it's it's the moves are slightly faster, so it did know it does require a bit more explosiveness than judo. But even just the right timing for an off balance. Just a little tug. Yeah, it's not that the you know moving the speed is not going to count that much. Yeah, it's the timing that you initiate that move. You see that with foot sweeps. There is nothing more beautiful than like a Olympic level athlete going at it in the Olympics and a perfect sweep. And it's just and you see one man's life flash before his eyes and realize like I am supposed to be the top three person in the world that I just find they don't they have this look on their face like I don't know what just happened. It's beautiful to see. You don't see that. I guess you see that in boxing knockouts and stuff like that. You don't know what the hell just happened. Yeah, is that precise moment of movement that you get caught like is is that one split second? That's it. Do you get that in jiu-jitsu at all? Because judo has because of the explosiveness, because of the point scoring system that incentivizes these giant throws. Has these moments where everything just turns on a single moment. Do you have that in jiu-jitsu? Not really because then his points is you get like you know two points. So it's because I think regarding the submission is not just one precise movement that changes everything. I think judo is the takedown that counts as a submission like hepon fight over jiu-jitsu don't have that. So you you will score points, but I think in terms of submission, you need to get to you know dominant position first, and then the submission will come slowly. It's a process. Yeah, okay, let's go back to that guy with his mind. So actually in the weeks leading up to it, in the days, in the hours, in the minutes, is there some fear in you? Leading up to this. I mean, I am not going to say you know that I am fearless because everybody fears something. You know, the fear is there, but it's like how much you let that control you. I think I was a lot more confident than fearful. For sure, walk into that fight like I, I was pretty confident that yeah I could beat him. What is the source of that confidence? My belief on on me this. Okay, I can take the world. That's you can take anyone in the world, but is there specific strategic like you know talking to Donaher? He believes that there is no such thing as confidence, like or rather the way you get confidence is through data. Like that you have proven yourself effective in previous situations, but with Buccecha. You don't you don't have much data. It was a very the first time you faced him was a very tough. That was also one of the greatest matches of all time. It was very tough. So doesn't that creep in like that doubt because you know you don't have enough data to be confident based on. Yeah, I mean, okay, if I never have fought before, you know suddenly walk into a fight with someone like that, then would I be that confident? I mean, probably no, you know so that history of what you know what we've been doing or been achieving does give you confidence. If that was my first fight ever, I wouldn't probably I wouldn't be that confident. But the time off, it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. You don't have the fear or the actual physical experience, the psychological experience of being rusty, of being out of competition. That will come on training. So you okay, so you simulate some aspect of that in the training. Yeah, I mean it's the the trainer will tell you how you are. Did you increase the intensity of the training leading up to this? Yeah, I mean I train I train normal. Let's say compared to the first fight, the second one's a lot more confidence because you know like I said on training the training for the first fight, you were terrible. So what do you mean? I think I was focusing MMA for a while for a couple of months and I wasn't really focusing the gear and you know by this time I accepted fighting and start training. Like all my responses on training were off, like all my training partner that I used to train with that I destroyed. I mean now they like they beating me, you know it's like I cannot beat them the way I I I was used to. But you know so I knew something was not right for the first fight. But then it's it's a you know no points is submission or draw. So yeah, for people who don't know, it was a modern Morris which is a twenty minute match submission only. So there is no the winner is determined only by submission, otherwise it's a draw. So physically I was I wasn't myself on that fight. I was tired, you know my body wasn't responding anyway. So that so the confidence was different from the first the second. I think I was confident enough that I wouldn't get tapped out on the first. That I was still going to fight because he has to tap me out to beat me and I trust on my defense. I am confident enough on my defense that he will not tap me out. But in terms of winning, you know walk into the second fight, I was a lot more confident. What can you say about that feeling when something's not right? It's not a thing that breaks people. It's weird, breaks it's weird. Like people crack, they give up. You know this it's it's a big test because it's it's like being really tired. It's the same thing. It's like a lot of people crack because they just feel they can't not give it more. They have nothing more to give, so they just like give up. It's too hard. So what do you do? Just again take the thoughts out. There is no giving up. I mean, I don't mind. I don't care. Like you just giving up is not an option. It's not that's always the way you thought. Yeah, about jiu-jitsu. Yeah, like I've never gave up. I mean, I tapped. It's you know not giving up. It's not not tapping. That's just stupid, especially you know doing training. Like it's I get caught. I tap. I've never ever hurt myself by not tapping. I get you get angry. You know, it's trying hard. You know, improve, make make yourself better. You'll get caught except that you made a mistake. Give up tap, then try harder. So you know the not tapping, it's you are sacrificing your body and you know you'll never be the same. Like if you let your elbow pop, the elbow will never ever be the same ever. You let yourself go to sleep, your resistance drops. So it's everybody has a has a limit of resistance until they you know to resist a choke before you pass out. The moment that you you you you go to sleep, that resistance will drop. I've never heard anyone say that. That's awesome. That's true. So tap. So that's the reason because people usually say it's. No, it's the same. Are you getting knocked out? You get knocked out the first time your resistance dropped. Your jaw gets weaker. So just for the record, I've never gone to sleep again, which means my resistance is high, right? I don't know. Must be. Oh, your defense is pretty good. I don't know about that. No, no, would because it doesn't make sense to me. Or maybe in my case, I think my understanding of when I am screwed is pretty good. Yeah, like there is no, you know, you are in trouble. Yeah, one of the things I regret the most about my jujitsu journey is not having given enough time to being in really bad positions. Like the better I got, I think the less I started being in bad positions. Which is because you spar. That's like that is how you train. Yeah, because you used to just spar. When you spar, like it's difficult to to being bad positions a lot. You train with better people, but I mean, let's say five six minute rows. How long you going to be in a really bad position? Not long, right? So you don't really have time to develop. That's why people they don't you know they don't train in bad positions because you have to start there over and over again. To be used to it. Yeah, or put yourself there. I just didn't have that mindset. I think I think you start. I mean, part of the fun of jujitsu is you get better and better. You have certain people you go with. You have these puzzles that you figured out that you are playing very specific details. You are working out. You are trying to improve your main like techniques and so on. But yeah, just the percentage of time you spend being submitted or being or trying even going against like lower ranks. Trying to escape basic submissions is low. I don't know if that's true for most people. Probably is right. Most people have very bad defense. Yeah, because they don't allow themselves to be there because. I mean, who wants to get tapped? Because you will until you you know to work on your defense. Of course, you are going to get tapped, or you know you are not going to escape. You are going to struggle to escape. So people they don't want to be there. I regret it most because of the effect it clearly had on how I competed. It it was it was clear that my competition was was constantly driven by conservative thinking. Like don't take risks. I think because of a weak defense, honestly, and I think a lot of any of the fear. Like for example, exhaustion was accompanied by fear because of weak defense. I think if I were to psychoanalyze myself and I regretted I regretted a lot. But speaking of which, I don't think anyone's ever submitted you in competition. So you were while I was a juvenile, yes. Yes, so so when you were a young person. Yeah, that still haunt you. No, it's first I was winning that fight by a large. I mean, I think by six points or four something like that. But I was like I was done. Don't remember it though, huh? By the details. That's funny. Yeah, you ever beat him again? He never competed again. Whoever you are, please let's let's do a podcast. We talk shit about Hydra the whole time. No, but what do you attribute that to? You are saying you are confident, you are confident that the top of the world, the number one, Bachecha would not submit you. So where is that confidence grounded? And what do you attribute the fact that nobody was able to submit you? First, you come from training. You know I train a lot bad position. Like my defense is good because I I practice over and over again. As much as I practice all my offensive position. So it's you know you have to train both equally. It's not just being a good position. You have to be in bad. So I think that's a very strong part of my game. You know to to be a complete fighter. You know, it's a complete martial artist. You have to be good in every single position, every single one. Those that you are not, you have a weakness. So it's you know to be complete, you should have no weakness. So that was always my, you know I was always very particular on that. Like it's where my weakness, where am I where I don't feel good at. If you put me in a position to struggle, how to escape, how to get out, everything, any submission locked, penny position. You know, back mount everything. It doesn't matter which position I up. I practice over and over again. So that when I if I get there in a fighting situation, I will know how to get out. At least I'll have a direction. You know I will know this is my way out. Do you practice both escaping the bad position and the transition into the bad position avoiding it? Because that's how it happens. You know jujitsu, you start in a neutral position. The transition then then becomes that the fight itself. You see, it's being there is the most important. Is when you there, then you have to know how to get out. That that's your weakness. How stopping the person getting that is something different. There are two different things. You either you practice one or the other. So but both are important. I guess but the the stopping the person is easier to practice because that comes naturally in training. Yeah. What was the actual process? Like what was your biggest weakness throughout your like just remembering what was annoying to you to figure out. I mean, now psych control is always is bottom of psych control. Bottom. It's regardless how much you you you practice, it's not ever easy. You'll never be easy. But it's so annoying. It makes no sense. Yeah, someone pins you down. This is someone to move much. Is a big and strong guy regardless of who is not going to be easy to escape. So some situations are just hard. There must be the sorry to interrupt. I am interrupting Hydra Gracie discussing jujitsu. But you just made me realize. If you are really good, if you if you are going against like the perfect jujitsu competitor, probably psych control might be one of the hardest positions. Is it the hardest position to escape? Is one of them. If the person doesn't want to progress, it's concern about. So they're falling. Yeah. Like the best pinners in the world. I mean, partially because I've just seen judo people that know how to pin. Yeah, they go escape. Yeah, psych control is a nightmare. It's a nightmare. Doesn't matter how much you practice. Yeah, it's a nightmare. And it's also just frustrating. I think I guess it is also frustrating because a lot of people in that position will be about maintaining control not progressing. Yeah. And usually people when they are mount in a bad control are usually trying to progress towards a submission which opens up opportunities for escape. So what's the actual process of just time and time again putting yourself in a bottom psych control. Yeah, over and over again starting there, escape back, escape get back. If you mount, you get back. Any situation outside that stop start again stop start again. And it has to be I'll say five minutes because it's the repetition that will teach you. You know if you train like three minutes on top, you have time to you know one thing and then time out. It's the repetition that over and over again. You know when you try the same move over and over again, then you see what can go wrong. And is it understanding the details of the movement or actually doing the movement and feeling it? It's it's both. First, you have to understand the movement and then practice. But most important thing is defense. Escape coming second because you know he's attacking you. The one thing is if he's not trying to submit you, but the other one if it is let's say if a person is very good has a very good attack. The first thing is defense, not just escape and expose yourself to a even worse position because that is is is very risky. When you try to escape, you will always expose yourself to a worse position. So avoiding that, it's you know first is defense not getting caught and then when you escaping, don't be in a worse position. So defense in jujitsu when you are wearing a gi, what is defense entail? Is it mostly grips? Is it mostly the positioning of your hips and legs? It is everything together because it's a whole body movement. It's you know it's a constantly moving your your arms legs body. It's it they they they have to everything works together. Go back to the mind of that guy. So confident, no fear at this point. Is there a bit of ego in there too? Yes, like like I say, no, I am not going to say I am fear I am fearless. Of course, there is concerns. That fight I would have to say was probably the fight that I was nervous the most walking in because I knew what that meant that fight. It mean everything for me. All my legacy was on the line because if I lost that fight, I'll forever I'll be number two. Yeah, forever. And I mean Bachecha is is a great great guy, great competitor. Jujitsu is very good, but I am better than him. I knew that. But he's competing non stop at that point. He's he's a great competitor. You know taking nothing out of him. He's super tough, very very tough, very good. He's probably the best competitor in jujitsu. He won thirteen time the world championship. I won ten. So as a competitor, you know he has more tires than I do. So but in terms of you know analyzing the game, I consider technically better than him. So knowing all that, everything that I build all my legacy, it's if I lose riding on this match. If I lose this fight, I am forever number two. None of that is going through your mind. I know I knew. I mean, it's not at that moment that I I already knew that. I remember just before you know the curtain is open. I am standing and before they call my name, and I mean my legs were like, I feel the adrenaline kicking on my legs and I am like. You know I am hitting the legs. I am like wake up, you know get off get that adrenaline off me, you know. So it's it was it was intense, it was intense, and this was in Rio. That was in Rio, so my hometown. So this is I mean and you know Rio is is not exactly known for its calmness in its fans. So this is like wherever they hosted the Olympics. The year before, so this is like. I mean this like the whole basically martial arts community is watching this. Yeah, I mean is there some was Hensel there? Yeah, yeah, was there some people are just I mean there is attention. It's also I mean I don't know if you felt that in part, but you are also fighting for the Gracie name. Yeah. In our hometown, the greatest where the Gracie really Gracie competitor of all time, arguably in the hometown. I mean, okay, all my family, my best friends, my friends, everybody watching, everybody there. There was a lot of pressure, a lot. And then were you thinking that you would be able to submit him? No, it's at that point like I don't predict how the fight will go. That I never did because it is unpredictable. It's I never try to set any strategy for any fight. I think oh okay that I did, but that was the only time that I set any strategy into a fight. It was a fifteen minutes fight that. And for I said first five minutes I am going to play defense. He's bigger, stronger, younger. I don't want to play his game and I know he comes in very fast. Every single fight he had, you know he comes very aggressive. So my strategy walking into that fight I say five minutes I am going to play defense. I am not going to try to attack. I am not going to try to match you space. I already expected you know maybe I am going to start losing the fight because you know if he comes in there is a risk of me maybe getting takedown you know something happen. I am like I am going to stick to the game plan. Five minutes I am going to stop picking up the pace because then it's ten minutes to go, which ten minutes a long fight, so I don't need to stop fast, but I am going to start being more aggressive and then. You know, try to take him down. I'll pull guard. You know, but by then I am like, "That's as far as strategy goes." There is no specific stand the feet. Were you comfortable being both bottom and top in this? Yeah, strategic. I am always comfortable being bottom and top. I prefer to be on top because being in the bottom, the person on top dictates the pace of the fight because he's on top over you. So I always prefer to be on top because I can dictate the pace, I can implement my own pace. And being the bottom, they can slow me down, so it's harder. So if I can choose, I will always be on top. But I think by then I was like, "It's you know five minutes hit it. I am like he's pretty big and strong. I am going to spend a lot of energy taking him down." I'll pull guard. How did how did it feel? So here you are stepping in. By the way, puzzle mass this is old school as old school as it gets. So calm and relaxed here for people just listening. We're watching the early minutes of the match. So just feeling it out. He seems pretty calm too. He must be nervous too. I wonder how you ever talk to him. You guys are friends. Yeah, yeah, we're friends. Did he ever say how nervous he was? No, we never spoke about that fight. No, no. He probably lays late at night thinking about it. Maybe I don't know that S O B. Yeah, I mean, so you see the first five minutes. No, he kept. I knew what he was going to do in my study. His game, his stand up is most basic is basic in takedowns, leg attacks, double legs. So he goes single double and he charges in. That is pretty much his stand up game. You try, you get, you get a grip. Yeah, we got penalized. So do you like to use the? Do you like to post your left? You have a right foot forward usually. You are a righty, right? I am righty, but I know he wants my leg, so I am playing my stance just because of his game. Oh, you know all my grips at that the first five minutes was to kind of try to neutralize his attacks. So he wants to get your left leg. Yeah, yeah, right there. Yeah, so how hard is that to stop that? I mean, he felt pretty strong coming. Some you know pushing the head down, trying to play with his balance. Yeah, if if you if you see it, there was a pause. Go back there. He charged in. There is a pause. Me standing in front of him. Yeah, I did that on purpose. What do you mean? Just in front of him because you know he tried. Yeah, and I am like you fail. I am here. T here is a okay, so you could feel the frustration. I could feel his frustration. His frustration not be able to take me down. Okay, so now and this is just psychological battle. And you see me walking straight into the middle of the mat and he's circling out. Yeah, see, I am going very slow, recovering, and he's computing like shit. Yeah, because he just made a you know effort trying to take me down. He needs to recover. And I mean, you you need to recover. The other guys there waiting for you. And do I do I go for another takedown? Because this one failed. Do I need to recalculate the strategy? Yeah, and he kept trying over and over again and keep failing. I think that frustrated him a lot on that fight. I fell, I fell him kind of slowing down suddenly because he was getting nowhere. So we're five minutes in. Yeah, he keeps. So he never got that takedown in the in the early. No. Let's see. So at this point, do pull guard. Yeah, okay. So that's when I fell like his, he's mentally he's he's not he's worried now. Did you try to pull close guard here? No, I knew he's going to bring Danny in. Okay, because that's the defense against pulling close guard. Yeah, but I like that. What do you? I like people bringing Danny between my legs because see I am going to close my guard even with his leg in. Because he is he's he's stopping the well this is this is awkward but. Because I was holding his arm, that's why he fell. He had no hand to post. Got it. But still, it puts a leg in. But you are able to close your guard around. You are okay with that? I do that really well. I sweep people from that position a lot. What's the sweep? I get just just push. Okay, he's just like to your left side. Yeah, okay because he has no. Oh, it's almost like a you mean you are basically around his back a little bit like. He knew that like I swept a lot of people with that sweep. So you you see he kept leaning to his left to my right. Yeah, so I want to push them to my left. So you see him leaning over to my right a lot. What's the right answer for him to like roll or something? No, I mean he stuck