GothamChess：漢斯·尼曼、馬格努斯·卡爾森、作弊醜聞與國際象棋機器人

Lex Fridman Podcast #327 – GothamChess: Hans Niemann, Magnus Carlsen, Cheating Scandal & Chess Bots Machine transcription by Qwen3-ASR 0.6B (MLX, local, Apache-2.0). May contain recognition errors. The following is a conversation with Levy Rosman, also known as Gotham Chess. He's a professional chess player and educator. I highly recommend you check out his YouTube channel called Gotham Chess. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. We got Notion for team collaboration, Athletic Greens for daily multivitamins, ExpressVPN for internet security and Inside Tracker for bio monitoring. Choose wisely, my friends. And now onto the full ad reads. As always, no ads in the middle. I try to make them interesting, but if you must skip, please still check out the sponsors. I enjoy their stuff, maybe you will too. 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Like a person who makes chocolate, right? I am not even going to check. I you know I can look it up online, but I am just going to go with it. And then you can clip the solid to embarrass me as the internet seems to deal with all the stupid things I say. I say so many stupid things, and they accumulate over time. And all I can do is just laugh at myself and appreciate you, sir or madam, for laughing along with me. Anyway, Inside Tracker is incredible because the best health advice, medical advice, all all kinds of advice. I think should be grounded based on the data that comes from you. Get special savings for limited time when you go to insidetracker dot com slash lex. This is the Lex Friedman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now dear friends, here is Levy Rosman. You are known for being able to guess people's Elo rating. So what do you think? Just by looking at my face deep into my eyes, what's my Elo rating? Here I'll help you. I'll do E four for the listener. I actually read that Stockfish prefers E four. Does it really? I actually didn't know that because it maximizes the number of tactical options. So that makes sense. The right answer is thirty four hundred, which is I believe Stockfish. You guess people's Elo chess rating. What what's that take? How hard is it to do that? And like how would you actually do that? Like what are telltale signs of red flags about a person at different ratings? Is there something you look for? Yeah, I think you can separate it something like the very first the zero to about eight nine hundred for simplicity' sake. I am going to use the chess dot com rating system because Lee Chess is slightly different. It tends to go two three hundred points higher than chess dot com sometimes even four five hundred points higher. But then it catches up. They catch up around twenty two twenty three hundred. I would say. What's chess dot com? What's Lee Chess? Can you like? Yeah, so explain what the difference is and what they are. They're two chess websites. Good starting point. Yes, chess dot com is it has obviously the free option where you can play games. You get some sort of puzzles every single day. You get some sort of lessons every single day. But then they have tiered memberships where you can pay annually or per month that you can unlock all the other features. And like what like for training for for training puzzles and all that kind yeah they have unlimited puzzles but they also have their biggest selling point for sure is like a dedicated game review that it's like very flashy and sophisticated and the coach will literally tell you what you did wrong. Every single moment the computer evaluated a mistake, but the most important thing that they have is they offer international masters grandmasters the opportunity to make video lesson libraries which hundreds of hours of anything I can even learn some stuff on there probably I have anal beads that are communicating with Stockfish via Bluetooth. Yeah we will get to that yes we will get to that it's epic it's actually scary how many people think that's a real thing by the way which is the danger of the internet but we yeah we will get into that but I tend to believe that people believing a thing that's hilarious at scale will make that thing a reality. I am with Elon on this. I think people manifest the meme, the meme becomes real. So that but that that's in all walks of life. I think there is something about humor. Sort of being, why is why did I I was going to what was I was going to say is I feel like humor becomes a lubricant for the trajectory of human civilization and I don't know why the word lubricant went into my head which beads I understand but it's very Freudian anyway so to zero to nine hundred if you are thirteen hundred player saying if you are not good at end games you don't understand how to convert positions that have seven or eight pieces left on the board you don't know when you are supposed to activate your king you don't know how a bishop outplays a knight with just several pawns on the board those are all very important things because it's not just about knowing the theoretical end games like some positions in chess are literally solved if I showed you a position I asked what's the evaluation and how do you win it there is a technique you are supposed to know that technique and the coaches on chess dot com can help or no yeah so these lesson libraries it's not like a live lesson it's pre recorded training position walk you through it and then there is a dynamic factor as well where you can practice you can practice the theoretical and you can practice a practical game where there is no set format to do something it's just based on your previous experience basically Lee Chess is their entire thing is it's an open source website that tries to be as free as possible and operates totally on donations they don't have any advertisements they don't have which is weird because normally in big competitive settings it's all capitalistic you have one big entity and another big entity and they're both for profit but in this case the big argument is well they offer a lot of things for free you can analyze your games for free you can you can go into Lee Chess's lessons library and do things for free the comparison that I always make is chess dot com is basically like having a good personal trainer and having someone to help you at the gym Lee Chess says you have to do the all the stuff yourself so you can combine YouTube with Lee Chess no one's going to really point you in the right direction you got to go fully explore on your own if you want to do it you can I also like to say can I make a controversial joke yes okay ardent Lee Chess supporters are like very angry you know only vegetarian or or vegan folks because they will tear you apart and try to convert you as much as possible did you just did you just point a large number of of haters onto this very podcast is this what just happened no is there like several people that were very upset at you right now no and throwing things okay no that's always the joke that I've made because if people have chess dot com and I love all people but I am just saying chess dot com patrons do not try to actively convert folks on Lee Chess folks on Lee Chess are like you know there is a meme Chess dot com Chess dot C and started at Lee Chess started somewhere in red on Reddit Anarchy Chess kind of a oh so Lee Chess is a little bit of an anarchist organization would you would you go as far as to say they're a terrorist terrorist extremist organization are we going there for legal reasons that's a I thought Lee Chess has like really good analysis somebody does it have an engine for analysis of like games or is that is that an open source thing that like they both do they both use Stockfish fifteen okay and then the rest is the interface around Stock Stockfish that shows it's tough it's it's the life so Chess has a live server where you and I can play a game against each other we just both seek and if we have the same rating we have the same criteria we'll we'll play a game but there is also reviewing your own games there is an opening database so you can see what the most popular trends are so Lee Chess is is great like I am sponsored by Chess dot com and I will openly say that but you can't have you are deeply biased yes okay but I am also complimenting the competitor okay but but can you play games on Lee Chess or is it just for analysis yeah yeah you can yeah so it's the same exact thing so they're like legitimately competitors not exactly the same thing but they have the they are trying to match for features but you are saying Lee Chess is more chaotic and then Chess dot com is more like professional yeah I don't I don't know I don't know if it's chaotic I just know that it's you have to no one's going to hold your hand if you if if you go to to Lee Chess you absolutely can you can play games you can analyze your games but you have to discover yourself the whole point of Chess dot com is to make the journey as simple as possible but I also firmly believe you can't have any sort of growth in Chess without a Chess dot com or a Chess twenty four what's time or what's Chess twenty four so Chess twenty four was another live server with some lesson libraries and so on but they were I think the process was they were bought by Play Magnus so what's Play Magnus Play Magnus is that's Magnus Carlson yeah he he doesn't own it he owns some stake in it I think nine or ten percent they owned a bunch of chess companies including Chess twenty four but now it seems like they're either merging or basically getting acquired by Chess dot com got it and then Play Magnus it's an app also where you can play Magnus different levels but there is also the educational stuff yes okay the for profit chess companies make the option for grandmasters to make a living to make chess in esports Lee Chess is great it doesn't put on any events there is no commentary so you you can have both in theory and probably some controversy is good does Chess dot com like sponsor you that help you out in some way like what's the connection between your videos and streams and so on and Chess dot com like are they supporting people in that way or no my content they don't necessarily I just make whatever I want like I don't have I've not sensed if they do something stupid I will call out their leadership it's not like but I to have the logo up like in my YouTube videos or my yeah it's just that kind of stuff yeah so anyway back to I mean that was really helpful I was confused about all of that the guessing people's rating so the thing you mentioned about the end game if you don't know what the hell you are doing with the end game what does that mean about your rating if you don't know how to finish with just a few pieces on the board you could be my rating end game is tough that's the self deprecating humor we tuned in for end games are hard man they're they're very difficult yeah you can't have there is a reason Magnus is the best it's because seven hours into a game when everybody's given up he's still squeezing juice out of the fruit so that's the way I would describe it so that's not good source of information if you no within the first fifteen moves generally you can tell because you can tell how well they played the opening so how well they knew what they were supposed to memorize what they were supposed to play and then how they react to piece interactions so if they are faced with a move that a more advanced player would deal with very swiftly because there is kind of a natural response that gives you information if they move their king when they're in check when they didn't have to that's a massive giveaway some people just think I am in check so I have to move my king okay so it's like how direct the response of your play is to the danger so like if you are more moving like multiple pieces at a time meaning like you are moving like the pieces are like tied together in interesting ways and then okay okay like what about like what about the opening can you tell also because a lot of people can memorize openings right yeah but takes two to tango so you could memorize a bunch of stuff but if you are nine hundred and I am nine hundred your rating is fluctuating all over the place in in this podcast I feel twelve thirteen nine hundred you can memorize things I am going to play some crap and you can't play the way you you memorized because I have to respond to you in certain ways so you will either respond the way you think you are supposed to respond and that will probably be incorrect or now you have to figure out how to deal with the fresh position also the nine hundred will reflect itself in both cases yeah yeah yeah I wonder if actually so do you know your current rating or no or your top rating what was your top I know both my current Elo like over the board now is twenty three twenty my peak was twenty four thirty oh cool so can you play like a nine hundred player like can you force yourself yeah so you can like given that you've guessed a lot of Elo ratings can you kind of emulate that it's kind of an interesting question yeah yeah of course before I was doing YouTube and Twitch I was teaching kids so I had to not only did I have to play at their rating I also had to play and sometimes even behave and explain things in a way that a kid could understand so absolutely yeah I think that's what contributed to the growth of the channel frankly I kind of understood how beginners thought about the game so yeah you did you taught people chess you coached people for for many years I guess in New York yeah New York what did you learn about the way people learn from that so like how how did people that were successful at getting good at chess quickly what were some of the commonalities some of the patterns that you saw obsession yeah what does obsession look like I would say it's obsession and also and also love of the game so if you are bored you don't want to watch a show you want to boot up Chess dot com or Lee Chess just for just so I don't get flamed by any anyone in the audience and you just play so you are saying Lee Chess people are the ones that would attack aggressively they're the kind of probably the the Chess twenty four people oh that's another so there is not I didn't know I thought Chess twenty four was part of the Chess dot com well now yes a cult or tribe or whatever terms we want to use no I am sure there is even more places to play live there always have been more places to play live but Chess like I am Lee Chess dominated well Chess twenty four is a rough for live interface of course they have good courses and everything but yes I got it I got it and some are even good people or whatever yes that cool goes okay like obsession that means the way they look at the board when they're bored how quickly do they return to the chess board that kind of stuff just like how many hours a day they they want to spend yes they spend and want to spend some kids definitely have a talent of course there is this eternal debate talent versus hard work. I don't necessarily know if it's a talent for chess specifically, but it's a talent for. I am sure there is some sort of spatial visualization in your mind. You are. You start picking up what squares are controlled by your pieces and opponent's pieces faster. Your memory is much stronger, so you you don't just learn openings like we discussed. You learn literal patterns, such as "oh, I remember this from two tournaments ago. I remember this from a game I played just yesterday, and you just keep playing and playing and playing. " But I think the one commonality I think I've seen in all kids. It's a obsession. You have to play a lot, and I've seen kids who are brilliant kids. Like if you give them a page of tactics puzzles, they solve faster than anybody. They can pick things up here super fast. They're a pleasure to teach. They go to a tournament disaster. They can't handle the anxiousness. They can't handle that silent face-to-face war with. Another six-year-old. They can't even handle. There is also trash talk. One sentence by a kid can throw off your prize student, and I've seen kids just totally disintegrate. I've seen also my students bully other kids. Quorn. My student wasn't that strong. But their verbal warfare, which is not allowed, but goes unnoticed. It's not even verbal warfare, like just going like. Like little little like like facial expressions you make at the board. Yeah, I didn't even think about that. There is pretty creepy. The intensity, not creepy, that's not the right word, but there is an intensity in that silence over the board. Like you can probably hear stuff like just like. It's super quiet. It's like a library. Yep. And then. There is just a tension that builds. You can hear the breathing. Yeah, and at the highest level, both sides are involved in a battle that they both foresee ninety-nine percent of the time. That's the scary part is that you both see the exact same thing. It's very rare you play move and I didn't see it. It's that I misevaluated it. I saw the move could be played, but I missed something three or four moves deeper. You play that move and suddenly you are excited and I am nervous. But all of a sudden. You make an inaccuracy and now the tide shifts right. We could be on totally different planes throughout the game, or we could be on the same plane throughout the game. So it's it's really fascinating. It. Yeah, so your thought is when you see a move that to you seems suboptimal, you start to think. What was that? You start to try to make sense of that. Did you miscalculate or did they miscalculate? What isn't that what Magnus is really good at is taking people away from like making suboptimal moves, to take them away from. The known openings, or is that unfair to say? Yeah, he gets. Part of his really dominant reputation, I think, from. Not letting people get into ultra theoretical positions. He just won this tournament, this online tournament, and he said he had a a young player strategy. He had an anti sorry a anti young player strategy. What's that mean? It means that by move seven or eight, you go to the database. No games. Kid is on their own. They have to swim on their own. Yeah. And they have to deal with the strategic complexities of the position, which he just he gets and he might get from just an enormous database within his brain of historical games that have similar structures. Or. Just sheer genius, like we we we won't know. Yeah, it's a mix of the two for sure. The younger you are, you can't remember a game played in nineteen fifty one in some bar in the Soviet Union, but he does. Because he read a book once or a magazine once. He just remembers he remembers the structure which it's just. It's not fair. It's crazy, right? What do you think makes him? If you can sort of link on it, what do you think makes him so good? I think it's the memory and I think it's. He just seems to get the game better than anybody else. That's the best way I can describe it in sports. You have reaction time, you have strength, you have. But also as he's now evolving, it's stamina. So there have been games that if you put two other twenty-seven fifty rated players or world top ten players, they would have drawn the game. The game would have ended. The game nobody would have won it. You put Magnus as one of the aggressors in that game. Suddenly the chance of victory doubles from five percent to ten percent. Weird. What's that about? Because what is a game six against Nepo like? Right. Isn't Stockfish say that it's supposed to be a draw? So zero point zero zero does mean a draw sometimes, but other times it means it's the joke I always make. It means the Stockfish is out for a smoke break. It can you explain the joke? Yes, explain zero point zero zero. Yes, so when so Stockfish will show an evaluation, which determines whether the position is equal, slightly better for one side, slightly better for the other side, or completely winning. You can zero point zero zero point two minus zero point two. That's all within a balance. You can say okay, black has little sprinkle of activity, something white has that. But if it's zero zero zero, it could be literally a dead draw, meaning theoretically just impossible to win. But oftentimes what that means is the smoke break joke is. Stockfish says no. There is so much complexity within the position. The combinations of different moves that are acceptable and okay, it cannot evaluate correctly. Wow, so even the end games are tough for Stockfish, which is why Magnus won that game because there was practical value remaining. It wasn't a dead draw. He continued to ask questions over the course of six or seven hours. He would sacrifice a pawn. He would sacrifice another pawn to damage the structure. Evaluation stayed the same. Because a machine could stop him, but not Jan. And that was one of my favorite. That that that game ruined my whole day. By the way, destroyed because yeah I made so many plans that day it completely ruined my day but it was a very worthy recap. You were just all in. You watched that whole game. I watched the whole game and the world championship was a crazy time because I wanted to be first with the recap video, but I also wanted to be best with the recap video. So I spent all the hours of the games watching all the live broadcasts. And getting all the information, all the variations and trying to put that into the recap. It was it was a lot of fun. It was a huge adrenaline dump when it was all over. So just for people who don't know, that's the most recent world championship. So you had a I mean that that was a draw after draw after draw after draw. Yeah, and it was it was kind of boring in that way or maybe. Our draws is there like non boring parts within the draw to you when you are like just studying it carefully. For me, yes, for the average viewer, no, that's the truth, especially when the game itself is not that exciting. When Magnus plays a strange move on move nine or ten that hasn't ever been played. And then Jan has to try to exploit it and he fails and no attack builds up and they shuffle their pieces for three hours. My favorite thing is when the commentators like I don't know why he did that I wonder why he did that like when the commentators are confused. That's my as a as a person who's just a spectator just like. That's that's interesting because then you the most interesting part is about listening to the commentators who, I guess themselves might be grandmasters. All yeah, they are trying to. I guess just like Nepo just like Magnus try to figure out. What's the idea here? What are you thinking? That's cool. That's that's that's an interesting part of the game, but other than that. It it seemed yeah I was sure this is just going to keep being a draw especially in that situation. So almost it seems almost remarkable that he was Magnus was able to put pull out a win in game six and after that. At least Magnus said that that that ends it because now Nepo is going to have to take more risks and that opens it up to pure chess and then. Who was it? Steve Prefontaine said like whenever whenever it's whenever the race is down to like pure guts then that's when I win it. There was also a conversation about Jan's first half second half in any tournament. In the first half, he's just brilliant on fire. You could even say he was outplaying Magnus, but the entire conversation before the match was Jan slows down and at the first sign of a loss or a setback. The match might fall apart and that was the worst way to lose. There was literally no worse way and it just got worse from there and there. I mean it was one move mistakes and. But he's back. He's going. Jan has won the candidates again. He's going to play for the world championship. So who you got? Who you got? What is what is this slang terminology? Can we like somehow edit that into a more sophisticated with a British accent type of phraseology? Okay, who do you think will win that match? Think it's fifty five forty five, but I don't know who. So it's close. It's very close. Okay, you can make both cases. You could say ding, you could say Jan has been here before. You can say to the world championship stage he knows what it's like to have a training camp and so on and so forth his playing style is very. But you can also say dingly ran is one of the most stable, unemotional chess players and ding oftentimes goes from down to up. So in the candidates he lost to Jan in the very first game fourteen round tournament he got demolished in the first game. I am sure he was suffering from jet lag the flight he he came to Spain like two days before the games began which was crazy to me. And he got second place by the end. His chances of finishing in the top two were like two percent after that first round game people wrote him off completely so he doesn't go from top down he goes the opposite way and if he loses he might come back but the truth is I don't know the truth is it's it's going to be an interesting match and it's also disappointing we're not going to get Magnus in it. Yeah, what do you think about him stepping away from the world championship? Are you a romantic about the world championships? No, I am not a romantic about anything. I don't think I I can't imagine what dark. It went dark quickly. I don't think I am sophisticated enough to be a romantic. I think I you know I I taught chess and now I make YouTube videos I am not qualified on the subject of romanticism but. I you don't think it's a beautiful game chess. No, I think I think it is a beautiful. There you go, I got you. Yeah, is that is that considered being a romantic? Yeah, I was seeing the beauty in the you can be like Bach and seeing the math in the music or you can see the beauty. The magic. I think I see beauty in in certain types of chess for sure not in all chess so I'll partially romantic. Part time romantic. Yeah, yeah. So what I mean what what do you feel about Magnus stepping away from the world championships? Disappointing but understandable. Can you steal Magnus' case? What what's understandable about it to you? I don't think it's as prestigious as it could be. I don't think the world championship. Yeah, yeah. Why does Magnus still sign everything as world champion? Then that's a good point that that he did just put out a statement and he did but he does it everywhere else too. Does he really? Yeah, like world champion right world champion. I don't know world champion world chess champion. Maybe it's just because he he he wanted but he thinks that the journey to the top once again to maintain the status quo has lost its. Appeal, you know what the example that I like to I like to make I. I am a big fan of UFC, so we've never really seen with the exception of George Saint Pierre. Walking and and Habib, but Habib was kind of a different story. Walking away from. A belt at the absolute zenith of their career, but also in the UFC champions are extremely well taken care of. Champions have some of the best some of the best lives. Of course you can argue not all champions you can say some of the lower weight divisions yes but what I am saying is a lot of them get all the sponsors they get massive massive paydays they're international celebrities I don't think chess has that in fact the world championship of chess prize fund has not changed much in like forty years. So you could probably make more money on on YouTube. Yes, playing randos not randos but other having fun. And playing challenging really challenging games playing other super grandmasters like an ad hoc events. Or maybe a little bit organized events but not the world championship. Yeah, and still and still have a lot of fun make a lot of money. Um, get everybody excited all that kind of stuff. Yeah, so for Magnus specifically, and we're using him because he's the world champion. If you tally if he wins every tournament that he plays in over the course of a year which is really not even that crazy of an estimate because that's really how it seems sometimes. Yeah, I don't know how much money that is I haven't tallied but. If he dedicated an entire year to being managed on social media and doing various things and growing all his brands and getting sponsor deals, I think he would make five times more than being the world champion, which is crazy. Yeah, but money isn't everything. I know that's that's totally fair. People dedicate their whole life to winning the Olympics. The Olympics is a funny is an interesting one too because. Like I didn't even watch the the Olympics as carefully as I usually do this year. Yeah, yeah, it's it's really strange. I am not sure why that is during COVID. I am not sure that that was weird. I don't know if it's losing its magic. Part of it is also the people that own the Olympics and the way they distribute it they make it a little bit more difficult to watch like it should in my opinion it should all be just available on YouTube and. Easily accessible, it's like the difference between like SpaceX and and some other like even NASA. Just SpaceX is better at streaming their launches. And commentating them, and they've made NASA better as well. But just like the ability, it sounds ridiculous but. Making it more frictionless for people to watch, get excited to share all that kind of stuff. Yeah, like I am not exactly sure where. The magic like balances between the the classy traditional world championships and the kind of. Dramatic, exciting, streamer world, and it feels like for for the world championships to be relevant they have to find that balance. Yeah, well this recent one had. I was it's pretty good commentating. Yeah, no, I am not I am not even necessarily talking about myself though there was a lot of that was the worst part for me. No, there was well, no, you did amazing. Yeah, I appreciate that it was a lot of I was a big arms race so every. Major chess platform tried to get one super grandmaster, Vishwanathan Anand, Fabiano Caruana, you name it. They were they were basically involved and to to go back to that point. Yeah, I the big question is money and if if Magnus is not motivated by money if the prize fund for the next world championship was ten million dollars would he play it? If he says no then. It must be something else. It must just be a matter of something's not worth it. It's not worth you got to take him at his word and his word is like. There is too much stress to the low sample play. Yeah, like I want to play many more times. Yeah, he wants to play more. He wants to he wants to make more interesting. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, more shorter games like where you can increase the possibility of pure chess. What ever the heck that means, but we can't go back to the first carp of Casparov match which they had to stop due to health concerns. I mean the guy went down five nil and it was first to six wins and draws didn't count so draws didn't amass to the total score there was no best of system. So what happened there? The match went something like seven eight months. Casparov started making a comeback after being down five nothing. He was five three and they called it off. They called it off. They said both players are in poor health conditions. Casparov stormed down yelled that this is a farce and but the match was fifty games long. Would even more maybe I made a video and I don't even remember how many games it was it was so long. Can you imagine Bobby Fischer wanted something almost as extreme draws don't count its first one to ten wins and if it's nine nine. The world champion retains his title, so you have to beat the world champion ten eight. That's the only way. Do you don't like that? What's I because it's grueling. I don't know maybe I like it for the YouTube recaps but do I like it for the players? Do I like it for general public? No torture. It's three four hours right you imagine your favorite tennis match was six months long. What are we doing? Yeah, yeah, there is still magic to the world championship. I wish they could make it some interesting. Make it work somehow, but I think Magnus is really challenging Fide and everybody else to step up and try to figure that out, which is great ultimately. Um, who would you say is the greatest of all time? Can you can you make the case? You mentioned Casparov. Can you make the case for Casparov? Can you make the case for Magnus Carlson? Bobby Fischer. Tall. In my opinion, you can make a case for Magnus Gary and Bobby Fischer. I am not one of the folks that's like I mean Capablanca was brilliant. You can argue Steinitz was brilliant, but as. I think I think it was it's probably Casparov and Magnus has a chance to overtake it. So the longevity is really important to you when you are thinking about this. Yes, I think so. I think Magnus is very very close. It's it's extremely close. Will be the magic. You got to get that sixth one. Also, no, I am just kidding. So the world championships matter. It's kind of like basketball, right? Rings. It all all comes down to how many rings that this person wins. What about well basketball doesn't have this the number of years at number one. Right, like rating sorry. Yeah, like there is a there is a. Which is what Magnus really likes is like there is a nice system of rating of who is ranked number one and has to do not with some championships or low sampled tournaments has to do with general game after game after game helps estimate more accurately the Elo rating so. Yeah, he's been world number one for I think eleven years, right? Which is still less than Gary was world number one for twenty years. Yeah, which is which is quite wild. But still lower rating, I think than Magnus now. Right. Yeah, I think rating in general has sort of allegedly it got inflated. Yeah, is that true? Is there true to that? I think so. I don't. I can't speak to how exactly it happened, but it also happens online. If you go back just three or four years, I think some of the best blitz players on let's say chess dot com were twenty seven twenty eight hundred and now they're thirty two hundred. I think it's just sort of what happens, but I. I don't exactly know. I will mention that there was a very strange change, not exactly sure when the year was in FIDE, so over the board chess, where if you were. Under the age of 16 or 18 years old, one of those two, and you were below 2,300. Okay, your rating change factor was three to four times higher. So just imagine what that means. Magnus has a rating change factor of of let's say one. I have a rating change factor also of one. Anybody over the rating 2,400 has the same rating change factor. What is the rating change factor? So if you win. Yeah, there's a formula and basically let's say at the very base level five point change. If your rating change factor is one, you beat somebody you gain five points. Those kids who were under 1