第 260 期·中文精讀
喬治·聖皮埃爾、約翰·達納赫與戈登·瑞安：史上最偉大
Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan: The Greatest of All Time
UFC 名將聖皮埃爾、教練達納赫與柔術冠軍瑞安暢談格鬥訓練、技術與頂尖選手的心態。
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中文精讀由 AI 基於原始訪談改寫，非官方翻譯，可能存在偏差或錯誤；表述以原音訊與官方文稿為準。說明
一個26歲的年輕人，四年55場連勝，贏下了所有主要無道服賽事的冠軍。他叫戈登·瑞安（Gordon Ryan）。坐在他對面的兩個人，一個是喬治·聖皮埃爾（Georges St-Pierre），UFC 次中量級和中量級的雙冠王，被無數人認為是 MMA 歷史第一人；另一個是約翰·達納赫（John Danaher），瑞安和一大批頂級選手背後的教練，被稱作史上最強的武術教練。
Lex Fridman 把他們三個湊到一張桌子上，第一個問題很簡單：你們成功的鑰匙是什麼，每個人說一兩件事。沒有提前給題目，沒有準備時間。
達納赫第一個被點名，他說自己在三個人裡看起來最緊張。然後他給出了一個不像成功學的答案。
在任何一個成熟的運動裡，等你進入這個專案的時候，基本的原理、主要的技術、主要的力學理解，早就被人研究透了。在一個高度發達的世界裡，成功的關鍵，是能識別出你所處行業裡某個當下被低估的領域，去做別人沒在做的事。（約翰·達納赫）
他舉的例子是腿鎖。腿鎖在柔術歷史上從來不缺人用，翻翻歷史記錄，會鎖腿的人一大把。但在很長一段時間裡，這項技術的地位被整個行業集體低估了，那些頂級選手、那些道館裡最有話語權的人，傾向於不重視它。
達納赫看到了這裡面的空間。他說任何行業都有流行趨勢，像服裝界的時尚風潮，總有一股力量把大部分人往同一個方向推。真正讓人脫穎而出的是另一種眼光：看到某樣東西本身有用，但當下被閒置、被冷落，然後把它撿回來，重新開發。
腿鎖被他撿起來，交到了旁邊的瑞安手裡。後來的事情大家都知道了。
在一個答案几乎人盡皆知的領域裡，機會藏在那些被人習慣性忽視的角落裡。
當所有人往右走，你要敢於往左
達納赫講完，輪到聖皮埃爾。他講的勇氣跟技術選擇無關，跟方向有關。
每個人都知道運動員會說，也許我有天賦，我很努力。但有一點大家談得不夠：我從來不怕嘗試走另一條路。我很多次去做那些沒人證明過會成功的事。（喬治·聖皮埃爾）
他給了具體的場景。有幾次他遇到的對手，紙面上的摔跤背景遠比他強，過去的比賽裡沒人敢嘗試抱摔這些人，因為他們的摔跤血統太漂亮了。聖皮埃爾在紙面上不具備抱摔他們的資格。可他偏偏就摔了，用的方式和所有人預期的不一樣，那條路徑後來成了對付這類選手的模板。
這和他的職業生涯有直接關係。他起步的年代，MMA 在加拿大被明令禁止，比賽得到印第安保留地去打，整個運動還處在蠻荒階段。沒有現成的教材可抄，想往前走只能自己摸索。
達納赫接過話，把這件事講得更清楚。他說聖皮埃爾是 MMA 歷史上最大的創新者之一，創新點在於打擊式摔跤（shoot boxing）的融合。
在 MMA 裡說某個人摔跤更好，這句話得小心聽。早期有很多摔跤履歷非常漂亮的選手進了八角籠，卻怎麼都摔不倒人。原因很簡單：摔跤比賽是近距離、彎腰、穿鞋、三分鐘內持續對抗；MMA 是直立、赤腳、距離完全不同的節奏。達納赫說，一個摔跤手脫下鞋子，大約就丟掉了20%的前衝驅動力。真正的摔跤能力只決定了抱摔鏈條裡大約20%的部分，剩下的80%是對距離、節奏、時機的理解，那是摔跤本身不教的東西。
聖皮埃爾早早就看清了這一點。他一邊在蒙特利爾摔跤俱樂部練正統摔跤，一邊把絕大部分精力投進自己開發的那套打擊加摔跤的融合體系裡。達納赫說，就開放式抱摔而言，他親眼見過的人裡，聖皮埃爾的準備動作最複雜、最精細。
努力這個詞從這三個人嘴裡說出來，含義和別人不太一樣。他們的努力，很多花在了找不到現成答案的地方。
自信是銀行賬戶裡的錢，恐懼是那堵牆
話題轉到了自信。聖皮埃爾的回答是整場對話裡最有結構的一段，他把自己職業生涯的兩次失敗拆成了兩面鏡子。
第一次輸給馬特·休斯（Matt Hughes），他賽後看錄影才發現，自己打得其實不錯，一直佔上風，直到犯了一個愚蠢的錯誤。可比賽當時他腦子裡的畫面完全相反，他覺得自己被徹底壓制。為什麼會這樣？因為他走進那場比賽時，想的是不要輸，而不是要贏。
我的第一次失敗是因為缺乏自信，第二次失敗是因為過度自信。（喬治·聖皮埃爾）
第二次是輸給馬特·塞拉（Matt Serra）。那時他已經開始橫掃所有人，開始相信外界給他的評價，相信那些新星、不可阻擋的吹捧，然後被擊倒了。兩次失敗從兩個相反的方向撞過來，把他按在了中間那個點上：一個自信與恐懼的精確配比。
他用了達納赫教他的一個比喻。
自信就像你銀行賬戶裡的錢。你可以擁有世界上所有的技能，但如果你沒有自信，就像一個百萬富翁沒法動自己賬戶裡的錢。（喬治·聖皮埃爾）
這個比喻的另一半是關於恐懼的。聖皮埃爾說他一直怕，怕在公開場合被打敗，尤其怕在比賽裡被打敗。道館裡被降服一次只是丟面子，那種怕會過去，比賽裡不會。正是這個怕，讓他每次訓練都不敢松。
瑞安從另一條路走到了同一個地方。他的觀點更硬。
對我來說，相信一件事最好的方式，是在高水平對手身上反覆做成功。我不可能相信自己能做一個抱腿，如果我在任何人身上都做不成。所以我的信念來自道館裡反覆的成功。（戈登·瑞安）
這跟很多人對頂尖運動員的印象不太一樣。不少奧運冠軍需要先相信自己能行，然後才能做到，因為他們在成功之前要吃很長時間的苦。瑞安的順序反了：他先在一次訓練裡降服了一位前 ADCC 冠軍四五次，那時候沒人知道他是誰，他也沒贏過任何東西，但那場訓練之後他就知道這件事可以當職業幹。
達納赫對自信的理解，和他的訓練哲學是同一套邏輯。他說自己從不搞反向心理，不會故意說你不行去激將。
我所有關於自信的工作，都是給人實打實的身體技能。自信的起點和底層全是物理性的。一個理性的人會看到自己在哪兒成功、在哪兒失敗，自信會圍繞成功的區域生長，在失敗的區域萎縮。如果我能讓你在道館裡對一個高質量對手連續十次成功使用某個動作，那我不需要在心理層面做任何事。（約翰·達納赫）
反過來說也一樣。如果他教瑞安一個臂鎖，一個月裡試了15次，15次全失敗，那他說什麼都改變不了結果。瑞安會看著他，說你在扯淡，我就做不好這個。一旦出現這種情況，教練嘴裡說出來的話就失去了信用。
訓練量不是越多越好，你得知道邊際回報在哪裡掉頭
三個人在訓練量上的分歧，比在自信上大得多。
瑞安早年是典型的量堆出來的路子。從白帶到黑帶，一天3到7次訓練，從紐約跑到新澤西，一個館接一個館。他的原話是，紫帶的時候他連身體都還不會動，堆量是在建立最基礎的運動能力。但近幾年他改了。
如果我一天做三次訓練，到第三次的時候，前兩次進腦子的資訊太多了，我人已經不在那兒了。所以現在量少一點，但每次訓練的精神清晰度更高，這更重要。（戈登·瑞安）
這跟偷懶沒關係，他的階段變了。技能已經建立起來之後，繼續堆量帶來的東西開始變少，清晰度帶來的東西變多。他現在的節奏是早上一次力量訓練，然後去拳館幫著帶課，腦子裡隨時在琢磨新的想法，下午一點的競賽課保持最好的精神狀態，之後回家休息，準備第二天。
聖皮埃爾的答案更反直覺。他說很多人一提到訓練就想到練得苦，真正需要的是持續和紀律，不需要每天練到最苦。
我不相信過度訓練，我相信休息不足。人們總是把休息不足直接和訓練量掛鉤，但它可能是別的原因。你情緒怎麼樣？有沒有個人問題？睡不好是不是因為有人去世了，或者破產了？這些因素都會影響恢復，不只是訓練量。（喬治·聖皮埃爾）
他把恢復當成一個系統工程看，皮質醇、睡眠、情緒、經濟壓力，全在裡面。職業格鬥本身壓力就極大，任何一項出問題，訓練量再合理也恢復不過來。
最能說明他訓練思路的細節，是他最後一場比賽的準備。他和達納赫討論怎麼讓自己變成更好的終結者、更有機會主義傾向。當時柔術訓練的對練是瑞安、傑克·希爾茲（Jake Shields）、加里·託農（Garry Tonon），那些回合更長，因為要準備 ADCC 那種比賽。但 MMA 比賽裡，地面時間很少超過四分鐘。於是他們把回合改成三分鐘一輪。
三分鐘逼我變得更果斷。如果我看到機會，必須馬上去終結，不能太有耐心。這在我最後一場比賽裡效果很好。（喬治·聖皮埃爾）
達納赫從教練視角補了一套更通用的演算法。他說力量和體能當然有用，誰都知道更強壯、耐力更好是好事，問題在成本。為了提升這些屬性，你必須從別的訓練裡切出時間。
我沒法在墊子上分辨出一個臥推300磅的人和一個臥推400磅的人，但那是100磅的差距，一個運動員從300練到400需要投入巨大的精力和專注。如果我在纏鬥裡感覺不出來，那為什麼要練？（約翰·達納赫）
技能訓練的邊際回報完全不一樣。他舉了託農的例子：在斷頭臺（guillotine）上投入的時間，直接帶來了幾場最重要的勝利。如果託農把同樣的時間花在把臥推提高25磅上，那些比賽的結果不會有一點變化。
所以他的結論是：絕大多數情況下，只要有任何疑問，就把更多資源投進技能訓練，身體屬性訓練往後排，尤其當你在屬性上已經達到一定水平之後。
纏鬥和格鬥的根本差距，是時間
Lex 問了一個看似基礎的問題：格鬥和纏鬥有什麼不同？達納赫的回答是整場對話裡最精確的一段。
MMA 裡有兩種傷害對手的方式。一種是動能，透過拳、腿、膝、肘傳遞；另一種是等長張力，透過槓桿和支點傳遞，用於絞殺和折斷關節。纏鬥拿掉了第一種，你不再被允許用動能傷害對手，偶爾摔投造成傷害算意外，規則並不鼓勵。
所以 MMA 裡的問題數量是纏鬥的兩倍，而且這些問題要在更短的時間視窗裡解決。
纏鬥技術和打擊技術作為人類戰鬥武器，最大的區別是時間。纏鬥技術需要大量時間才能實施。它最大的優勢是結果的確定性。一次抱摔要建立、要物理地放倒對手、要過渡到優勢位置、要拿到後背、最後才上絞，這是一條很長的鏈條。一記重拳或重腿，從啟動到結束可能只要四分之一秒。（約翰·達納赫）
這條時間差還帶來另一個後果：容錯率。
纏鬥是一項寬容得多的運動。你可以犯一個可怕的錯誤，落到一個很糟的位置，然後還能打回來贏。MMA 裡，你被打中、被打暈，恢復的機會極小，除非正好在回合末尾。瑞安可以在纏鬥裡睡著30秒，被對手騎乘，醒來五分鐘後再終結他。這在 MMA 裡不會發生。（約翰·達納赫）
規則也在塑造兩種運動的形態。纏鬥裡瑞安走到墊子中央坐下，對手按規則必須跟到地面來打。MMA 裡你走到籠子中央坐下，對手可以直接走開。纏鬥天然以地面為中心，MMA 天然以站立為中心，每個回合開始都要站起來。
瑞安補了另一個維度：規則碎片化。MMA 有 UFC 和 Bellator，規則有些微差別，大體是一套。纏鬥有 EBI 規則、ADCC 規則、IBJJF 規則，還有無時間限制的規則。每套規則都在給不同技術特點的選手加權。
我第一次在 EBI 打尤里（Yuri Simoes），我贏了。但那天晚上如果換成 ADCC 規則，我贏的機率相當低。後來我在 ADCC 規則下打萊安德羅·洛（Leandro Lo），他贏了我。可同一天換成 EBI 規則，他贏我的機率幾乎是零。（戈登·瑞安）
他還講了一個具體的規則權重問題。ADCC 規則對摔跤手略有利，可以被拖進加時，然後在加時靠一次抱摔得分，全程沒怎麼做柔術也能贏。EBI 規則不一樣，你必須在對練時間內終結對手，否則進入特定的位置加時，一方從後背開始，另一方從臂鎖位置開始。這套設計逼著選手去終結。
如果聖皮埃爾和哈比布在巔峰期相遇
Lex 拋了一個格鬥迷爭論了多年的假設：聖皮埃爾和哈比布·努爾馬戈梅多夫（Khabib Nurmagomedov）都在巔峰期，誰會贏？
達納赫先糾正了一個常見的誤判：兩個人其實體型接近。聖皮埃爾打次中量級，哈比布打輕量級，但站在一起身高差不多，哈比布體格更厚實，走路的日常體重反而更重。聖皮埃爾職業生涯大部分時間在188到191磅之間，哈比布實際上在體型和力量上略佔優勢。這也是 MMA 發展的一個趨勢，選手越來越往更低的重量級壓。
然後是逐項拆解。
我認為喬治在打擊和距離控制上握有決定性優勢。哈比布少數幾次顯得站不穩的時候，都是在他必須一邊後退一邊打的時候。他向前壓迫、向前推進的時候非常強，但向後打的時候，能力和向前有明顯的不對稱。喬治的正反兩個方向都能打，他對提亞戈·阿爾維斯（Thiago Alves）那場比賽，站立階段大部分時間是在後退中完成的。這大概是兩人技術層面最大的差距，就在站立。（約翰·達納赫）
地面部分他逐項列了一遍。籠邊抱摔哈比布略佔優，籠中央抱摔聖皮埃爾略佔優，地面打擊能力大致相當，從下位防守的能力大致相當，從下位起身的能力大致相當。按他的拆法，這是一場非常難預判的比賽，唯一明顯的差距在站立，但差距明顯不等於結果確定，哈比布完全可以把比賽壓到籠邊，用戰術把回合一個個磨下來。
我一直認為我見過的史上最強三位 MMA 選手是喬治·聖皮埃爾、哈比布和喬恩·瓊斯（Jon Jones）。三個人有一個共同點：都擊敗了自己面對過的所有人。瓊斯官方有一場取消資格的失利，但沒人認為那是真的輸。喬治有兩場失利，但兩場複賽都贏得很乾脆。哈比布則是零失利。有意思的是，三個人都至少有一場比賽在判分上是有爭議的。所以到最後，你要選誰當 GOAT，取決於你用哪把尺子。（約翰·達納赫）
用對手質量去量，他說大概得給聖皮埃爾；用未被擊敗的統治時長去量，得給哈比布；瓊斯的問題在於最近幾年已經看不到當年那種統治力了。達納赫的結論很剋制：三個人之間你選誰，說明的更多是你作為觀眾看重什麼，他們之間的真實差距並沒有那麼大。
聖皮埃爾自己給了一個完全不同的答案。他說真正的 GOAT 還沒有出生。
現在這一代運動員有一個巨大的優勢，他們有我們當年沒有的知識和技術。但我們也有上一代沒有的東西。可只要知識能一代代傳下去，最強者一定還沒出生。在能測量成績的專案裡，田徑、舉重，你可以說誰比誰強，因為能量出來。格鬥不行，格鬥全是主觀的。運動成績的總體趨勢是越來越高，原因在於知識傳播和技術積累，人的基因本身並沒有變快，只是他們站在前人的肩膀上。（喬治·聖皮埃爾）
這個觀點他還往過去推了一層。有人問他現代選手對上古希臘的潘克拉辛（pancration）冠軍會怎樣。達納赫說，這是武術史上的一大遺憾，潘克拉辛的資料大部分據說毀於亞歷山大圖書館的大火，留下的少得可憐。但從能確認的部分看，這是古代奧運會最受歡迎的專案，存在了幾百年，進入奧運會之前還有很長的發育期。
柏拉圖年輕時就是潘克拉辛選手。柏拉圖這個名字本身是個綽號，意思是寬，就是大塊頭那個意思。達納赫說，如果有一群智商跟柏拉圖一個級別的人，在當年最受歡迎的奧運專案上琢磨了幾百年摔法，城邦出錢、最好的教練、最有天賦的選手被集中起來，這種積累深度是難以估量的。
阿爾維斯那場，他聽到了肌肉撕裂的聲音
達納赫聊聖皮埃爾的摔跤時，把話題拉回了一場具體的比賽。他說那是策略、技術、意志的教科書級展示。
聖皮埃爾自己講了過程。第三回合，他在下位，對手想壓住他的膝蓋過腿，他去打了一個臂鎖，對手推開他的腿破了這個動作，他的內收肌在那一下撕裂了。他聽到了啪的一聲，不知道那是什麼，但知道很疼。
回到角落，他對教練說不知道是什麼傷，估計是內收肌撕裂。格雷格·傑克遜（Greg Jackson）的回答後來成了網路梗。
我不管，用你的襠部打他。（格雷格·傑克遜）
聖皮埃爾說他當時不疼到無法繼續，但不知道傷到什麼程度，那個未知本身在腦子裡盤旋。他知道自己在記分卡上領先，只能咬住護齒把比賽打完。
這場比賽的技術含量在於他對距離的控制。阿爾維斯又大又壯，聖皮埃爾說他把對手當成一輛坦克，絕不在正面停留。要麼完全在外圍，要麼整個人切進去。在外圍就用刺拳和步法控制，切進去的時候一定帶著摔法：要麼主動的，用刺拳做假動作，對手的眼睛往上一抬，他立刻換成單腿或雙腿；要麼反應式的，故意賣個破綻引對手出拳，對手一動，他降重心抱腿。
有些選手比如哈比布，擅長把對手逼到防守狀態，用連續摔法把人放倒。我個人的專長是八角籠中央的爆發式抱摔，因為對我來說那樣更經濟。（喬治·聖皮埃爾）
達納赫把這個差異講透了。他說聖皮埃爾對 MMA 歷史最大的貢獻之一，就是讓所有人明白摔跤好這四個字有多模糊。真正決定抱摔成敗的，是距離、時機、鋪墊、機會，這些都不屬於摔跤這項運動本身的訓練內容。聖皮埃爾的覆蓋距離能力來自空手道，摔跤只負責抓到腿之後怎麼完成。
達納赫還講了一段聖皮埃爾少年時的故事。十六七歲時，教練讓他戴上拳擊手套站在硬木地板上，對面是一個二十七八歲、正當職業巔峰的拳擊手，規則是他不許出拳，只能想辦法把對方摔倒，而對方會全力把他打暈。達納赫說那是達爾文式的訓練，要麼適應，要麼完蛋。
然後是那句很重的評價。
你們在八角籠裡看到的喬治，和認識他作為陪練的人看到的喬治，是兩回事。他在道館裡經常和比自己高好幾個重量級的人打。我不點名，但我每次都笑，當人們說某個人是史上最強的時候，我親眼見過喬治把那個人摔倒、在地面壓制、徹底碾壓。我不能說太多，因為公開談訓練裡的事不禮貌。（約翰·達納赫）
人類為什麼盯著打架看
Lex 把話題拽到了更遠的地方：武術和暴力之間那條模糊的界線，和我們祖先留下的東西有什麼關係。
達納赫的回答幾乎不用思考。
你走在街上，突然聽到一陣騷動，兩個人在打架。那條街上所有人都會停下手裡的事去看。人類對暴力著迷，你得問自己為什麼。答案是我們進化史的很長一段裡，暴力是人類生存最重要的元素之一。（約翰·達納赫）
他說人類一面咒罵暴力，一面又無法移開視線。格鬥運動之所以有觀眾，甚至有被它冒犯、覺得噁心卻還是忍不住看的人，原因就在這裡。他相信絕大多數格鬥選手都帶著這層認知，哪怕是在潛意識層面，這就是我們是誰。
聖皮埃爾用的詞是驕傲。達納赫順著這個詞往下講：大多數人有某種自我價值和尊嚴感，是願意為之而戰的。這條線在哪裡因人而異，有人被推一下就動手，有人能忍很久，但每個人都有那麼一條線，這是刻在所有人身上的東西，不管你怎麼努力把它埋起來。這才是格鬥運動永遠有市場的原因。
他同時把話說清楚：今天大多數人對無限制的、非自願的暴力是反感的，他相信隨人類文明往前走，這種反感會越來越普遍。但這不等於人不能在規則內釋放那些古老的衝動。人類始終要在衝突和合作之間找平衡，孤立的人幾乎毫無用處，必須合作才能建立社群、才能進步，可總有一些矛盾無法靠談判解決，最後還是要靠物理力量分出結果。人就在這兩股力量之間擺盪，格鬥運動是這種擺盪生出來的產物。
Lex 提到了理查德·蘭厄姆（Richard Wrangham）那類研究，一種說法是 beta 男性贏了：人類之所以發展出合作，是因為單個 alpha 男性太強，只有聯合起來才能推翻他，一次次推翻的過程把合作能力練了出來，所以現代人都是 beta 男性的後代。
達納赫的回應很謹慎。他說靈長類確實普遍有明確的 alpha 男性，支配整個群體，決定群體的走向；人類沒有這種嚴格生物學意義上的 alpha 男性，不會獨佔所有女性、決定下一代。但人類有自己的版本：政治和社會意義上的領袖，對群體方向有不成比例的影響力。
他不太認同幹掉 alpha 男性是唯一關鍵。他認為在捕食者環伺的世界裡，決定一個人群能否成功的因素主要是兩個：數量和科技。人數越多、武器和支援系統越先進，在捕食者世界裡就越成功。語言的施加、社群的擴大、技術的進步，這些都是人類崛起裡極其重要的變數。
然後是那段很精彩的對比。
你看看人類的原材料，在捕食者的動物世界裡我們弱得可怕，幾乎在食物鏈最底端。我們唯一比平均水平強的能力大概就是耐力。但把一群人放進一個有語言的社群，給他們時間發展出金屬，一個拿著簡單金屬矛尖的人就能殺掉動物世界裡幾乎任何生物。作為一個群體作戰，我能打贏銀背大猩猩。怎麼打？在有深水的池子裡打，因為它不會游泳。我不需要碰它，我把它弄進水裡，它就淹死了。為什麼我知道這件事？因為有人告訴我，因為我們生活在社群裡有資訊傳遞，他把這個知識傳給了我。（約翰·達納赫）
最高命中率的技術，背後都是力學
話題回到技術。Lex 問纏鬥裡最高命中率的降服是哪一招。
你得選後背裸絞。你看大多數賽事、大多數規則，它在所有規則、所有重量級、所有體型上都成立，不需要身高之類的特定身體優勢，在格鬥和纏鬥裡同樣有效。它還能無視對手的身體和精神強硬程度。在現代比賽裡，跟腱鎖（heel hook）的命中率也很高，但如果對手就是決定不拍、願意承受身體損傷，那場比賽不會因此結束。絞殺不一樣，絞殺永遠會結束比賽，不管對手多硬。（約翰·達納赫）
瑞安解釋了背後的力學。關節鎖你可以不拍，腿斷了還能繼續打；絞殺沒有這個選項。從後背發起進攻，你天然佔優勢，因為人體對身後的威脅幾乎無防備。對手被你胸口貼後背壓住，加上身體三角（body triangle）把髖部鎖死，他沒法爆發，沒法滑脫。
Lex 追問：後背控制是不是比騎乘更強勢？
瑞安說看歷史資料，被長時間困住的選手絕大多數是在後背位置。騎乘位上的對手可以起橋、可以失衡、可以拿半防守再回guard，一旦身體三角鎖上，那就是大多數人被釘住的地方。
身體三角有一段不太為人知的歷史。達納赫說柔道早期有一種叫 dojime 的技術被禁了，就是用腿交叉鎖住對手的腰腹，據說是因為早期發展中出現過腸道損傷。現代柔術裡，他剛練的時候身體三角還很少見，不是課堂標準內容。九十年代末到兩千年左右，人們才開始意識到這是更強的控制方式，對髖部和軀幹的控制遠超普通的勾腿。它有身體條件的門檻：個子矮、體型厚的人很難在大體型對手身上用，對手腰腹特別寬的話幾乎鎖不上。正因為不是所有人都能用，它在初級課上教得少，長期被當成高水平的專項技術，並沒有被當作通用基礎動作。現在頂級比賽裡，只要有機會，絕大多數選手會選身體三角，普通的背後勾腿反而不常見了。
摔法的最高命中率，達納赫用的還是力學，不靠傳統。
正面抱摔裡，最高命中率是抓兩條腿往後推。你抓一條腿，對手能用另一條腿跳、能funk出來，給你製造各種麻煩。但你抓住兩條腿，用推力往後壓，我不管對手多能跑能跳，他一定會坐到地上。比這個更容易的是從背後摔，從正面摔是往對手的髖、頭、手上撞，正面全是他的防守武器；從背後摔，就像美國人說的 mat return，容易得多。（約翰·達納赫）
他還說了第三種：從正面鎖頭（front headlock）的位置發起摔法。距離已經關了，接觸已經有了，不用再切入，不用擔心被 sprawl，也不用擔心斷頭臺、木村鎖那些標準防守。這些摔法天然更容易。
聖皮埃爾的版本更個人化。他說每個人不一樣，看對手是什麼型別。他自己喜歡攻擊腿，理由是要放倒一棵又高又大的樹，從根部砍。他是爆發型選手，所以偏愛爆發型技術，比如單腿轉雙摔（power double）。他也承認有些動作是通用的，比如足跟勾（straight ankle lock）幾乎人人都能做，因為它對身體條件要求低；三角絞就不是所有人都鎖得上。最高命中率往往等於最大的身體相容性。
達納赫補了一句方法論。
柔術是一片海洋，你可以在海上漂很久，最後什麼都沒帶回來。我們只活一輩子，訓練壽命比壽命還短，所以必須聚焦。但我不會因為傳統說某個動作低命中率就信。腿鎖當年被認為是絕對的低命中率動作，我職業生涯很大一部分工作就是證明這個判斷是錯的。傳統會錯，你要回到力學去問：它為什麼高，為什麼低。（約翰·達納赫）
柔道規則變化是個反向案例。2010年前後柔道禁止抓腿，整個專案的技術形態被徹底改寫。達納赫說，按常理這種級別的規則變動應該把世界排名洗一遍，結果幾乎沒變，之前佔優的國家還是佔優，之前頂尖的選手還是頂尖。這說明頂尖選手之所以頂尖，原因不在他們只適配某一套規則。
外星人、馬斯克和火星
Lex 把話題拉到了宇宙。達納赫的立場很清楚：宇宙這麼大，說只有地球有生命是幼稚的；但 UFO 是否來過，他保持不可知。他承認海軍放出的那些影像、飛行員的目擊，確實有一些很難解釋的現象，但從有我們解釋不了的東西到有小綠人拿著射線槍，中間隔著巨大的證據鴻溝。
等到外星人在週二下午三點降落在中央公園，拿著小射線槍下來打人，我才相信。在那之前，給我看證據。（約翰·達納赫）
瑞安講了一個他看到的說法：如果有個外星文明在6500萬光年外，他們理論上看到的會是恐龍，因為光要走那麼久。反過來我們看一億光年外的星系，看到的是一億年前的樣子，你根本不知道它現在是什麼樣。這讓宇宙顯得更嚇人。
達納赫補了費米悖論裡最陰的一面：如果外星人一直沒來，那可能有個原因，而最嚇人的原因之一是，一個文明發展到足夠先進的階段，就會自然地把自己毀掉。人類現在手裡的工具越來越多，武器系統越來越強，同時在推特和 Instagram 上越來越憤怒。
火星那段，聖皮埃爾的態度最鮮明。他說從歷史上看，地球一直很不穩定，一萬兩千年前發生過什麼，撞過隕石，超級火山，如果我們想作為一個物種活下去，就必須走出去，把種子撒出去。這是早期的一步，路還很長。
Lex 問他願不願意去火星。聖皮埃爾說想去太空，火星要再想想，風險太大，而且無聊。如果快到生命盡頭，他願意買單程票，就為了體驗一下。如果技術安全，他願意當第一批去度週末的人。
達納赫潑了盆冷水。
即便是最好的情況，他們真能把你快速送到火星，那也是一種不真實的探索感。你參與的程度，不會比你坐一趟航班去國外更激動人心。飛船不是你造的，你不是指揮者，你對任務沒有任何重要性，你只是坐在乘客座位上，到了地方下船，跟飛到新加坡或者倫敦沒有本質區別。（約翰·達納赫）
Lex 反駁說不是這樣，火星任務裡有等級、有分工，每個人都得有能貢獻的技能，不然上不去。達納赫承認這種說法好多了，更像麥哲倫那種遠航，船上每個人都有具體職能，缺了誰船的效能都會下降。然後他補了一句：麥哲倫那趟，大部分船員死了。
機器人的記憶，和人的自我意識
話題又跳了一次。Lex 講他實驗室裡的機器狗，說那東西有記憶，記得一起走過的路、記得他的臉。斷電再開，記憶還在，不從零開始。
微波爐不知道我是誰。它不記得我什麼時候難過、什麼時候開心，不記得我往裡面放了什麼，不記得我是胖的時候還是身材好的時候。但機器人記得這些的時候，你把它關掉，就會有一種感覺：一個活著的東西消失了。這當然是擬人化，但正是這種東西讓我相信，我們可以造出跟人建立連線的非人系統，像狗和貓一樣。（Lex Fridman）
達納赫沒有接這個話頭。聖皮埃爾接了一句，說人是不是有自我意識本身就值得懷疑，這是個好問題。
情緒是武器，也是陷阱
這場對話裡有一段關於表演的討論，值得單獨拎出來。
聖皮埃爾說他一直清楚自己是 entertainer。職業運動員的收入來自有人願意看，這跟演員、歌手沒有本質區別，尤其在格鬥這個專案裡，一場比賽被推廣出去，需要情緒。愛我也好，恨我也好，別無視我。
達納赫從觀眾結構解釋這件事為什麼必然發生。一場付費直播一百萬人看，其中真正懂技術的是極小一撮，剩下的人靠什麼進入這場比賽？靠情緒。所以賽事宣傳片永遠不講戰術，講的是備戰、是家人、是兩個人之間的恩怨。他自己不懂國際象棋，如果兩個世界冠軍下棋，他沒法從技術上欣賞，但如果有人告訴他這兩個人恨了對方五年，互相公開說過難聽話，他立刻就精神了
情緒還有另一層用途，它本身就是武器。聖皮埃爾舉了舒格·雷·倫納德（Sugar Ray Leonard）和羅伯託·杜蘭（Roberto Duran）那場。
倫納德是他那個時代最好的拳手，我覺得技術層面沒人能贏他。但在蒙特利爾那場，杜蘭把他激怒了，倫納德想站在對方正面打一場不一樣的比賽，為了證明自己是個男人。他輸了那場。這是錯誤。後來複賽他輕鬆贏回來。我的重點是，情緒可以被用來把對手從他的比賽計劃裡拽出來。我感覺到很多對手對我用過這一招，所以我從來不進去，那是我保護自己的方式，像在面前放一面盾牌。（喬治·聖皮埃爾）
瑞安走的是另一條路。他主動挑事，因為他發現在這個行業裡，不管你說不說，人們都會說。他翻過聖皮埃爾的評論區，一萬條留言裡有九千條在罵，罵只會壓著不打，罵軟蛋，罵終結不了人。他當時想，反正都要被說，那不如想說什麼就說什麼，做自己就好。
他的分寸感是加一。對方開一槍，他扔一顆手雷，然後再來回。他說自己不會越過某條具體的線，而是按人調整，永遠比對方高一步。這也解釋了他回應黑子時為什麼經常擺資料：你說我不行，那個人我已經降服過了。挑釁加科學，這個組合很怪，但有效。
達納赫對這種操作的評價其實很保留。他說自己不會教選手賽前該擺什麼姿態，心理層面的花招往往只對一場比賽有用，對整個職業生涯的收益接近於零。他更願意在回合間用強硬的話糾正選手的戰術，那比任何賽前挑釁都有效得多。聖皮埃爾也補了一個例子，何塞·奧爾多（Jose Aldo）對康納·麥格雷戈（Conor McGregor）那場，他相信麥格雷戈就是故意把奧爾多激到冒進，好讓這位頂級反擊手離開自己最舒服的距離。
瑞安講了2018年無道服世錦賽對 cyborg 的那場。賽前他噴得很難聽，對手整場沒想過贏，只想打他的臉，連過腿都不嘗試。瑞安說那場比賽他贏得很輕鬆，因為對手全程在情緒裡。
達納赫補了一個觀察方法：比賽結束後問選手問題。第四分鐘你在做什麼？第三分鐘那個鋪墊是什麼？如果答不出來，說明他整場靠本能和情緒在打。瑞安不一樣，他像一本日誌，第七分鐘你在左側那次足跟勾鋪墊時在想什麼，他永遠答得出來。全程冷血計算，這是他最強的資產之一。
加爾旺，和一整套挑釁邏輯
Lex 順著這個問了瑞安和安德烈·加爾旺（Andre Galvao）的恩怨。瑞安講得很直白：加爾旺是 ADCC 歷史上最偉大的選手，六塊金牌，他從2016年拿到黑帶起就想跟對方打，一次次被拒。最後一次 ADCC 之後，他很客氣地說，如果加爾旺要退役，那是偉大的職業生涯；如果要繼續打，那也很好。然後對方開始在 Instagram 上發陰陽怪氣的文案，兩邊來回，某天在 Flow 的現場，他去握手，被豎了中指，對方跟到後臺想動手，他扇了一巴掌，對方就不想打了，現在 Instagram 上已經把他拉黑。
Lex 問怎麼解釋這種情緒，是怕失去王座，還是人就容易情緒失控。
瑞安說自己也不知道，好像就是有辦法鑽進別人皮膚裡。他舉了蒂姆·斯普拉格斯（Tim Spriggs）的例子：賽前十分鐘在 Instagram 發了一條狠話，說今晚要做的事是犯罪級的。對方看到了，出來就真的往前壓，然後被他降服。要麼對手被激得往前衝，要麼對手怕輸怕到極其保守、只往外躲，兩種結果對他都有利。
這種打法有個前提：他自己不能進去。賽前罵得越狠，輸了越難看，這一點他很清楚。可一旦上場，他必須把嘴上的東西全部關掉，只剩下計算。達納赫說這是他最被低估的能力，能把言語和行為徹底分開。
同一張桌子上，吃的東西完全相反
飲食這段是全場最接地氣的一段，也最能看出三個人的性格差異。
聖皮埃爾的方法是時間限制進食加週期性長斷食，一年四次，每次三到五天，只喝水。他說斷食幫他控制炎症、提升免疫，更重要的是心理層面。
我斷食結束坐下來跟別人一起吃飯，不管吃什麼，我都會跟他們說，我現在這口飯比你們所有人的都好吃。人有時候需要把自己放進某種受苦裡，才能重新意識到一件事有多愉悅。（喬治·聖皮埃爾）
如果備戰比賽，他會偏向動物性飲食，高蛋白、高脂肪、碳水主要來自水果，還特意強調內臟。他去非洲見過馬賽人，知道他們殺掉一頭動物之後先吃內臟，也知道大多數捕食動物是同樣的順序。他說西方飲食文化幾乎不吃內臟，但那東西營養密度極高。
瑞安的情況是病。2018年反覆的葡萄球菌感染，他吃了一堆口服抗生素，把腸胃徹底打穿了。最初被誤診為胃輕癱，四年裡他都不知道自己到底是什麼問題，後來去加州看醫生，診斷出幽門螺旋桿菌，加上小腸裡的真菌和細菌過度生長。
最糟的時候，我走進任何一個新房間，第一件事是找垃圾桶，怕自己吐出來。現在比那個狀態好一點，但還沒到該有的樣子。（戈登·瑞安）
他以前是有賽季和非賽季的，賽季吃得乾淨、體重低，非賽季像健美運動員那樣放開吃，晚上吃芝士漢堡和披薩補熱量。現在不行了，只能吃米飯、雞肉、雞蛋、魚、蔬菜、水果，其他都難消化。他說這在德州很慘，因為吃不了燒烤。
達納赫的觀點最反常識。
說實話，我在柔術裡從沒見過飲食改變帶來可測量的運動表現提升。我認為飲食對長壽重要，尤其40歲以後。但在年輕、正當巔峰的運動員身上，我見過飲食極其糟糕的人。特拉維斯·史蒂文斯（Travis Stevens）基本靠麥當勞和糖果拿的奧運銀牌。喬治·聖皮埃爾，你職業生涯80%的時間是靠麥當勞和可口可樂驅動的。戈登年輕時就是五個漢堡。我帶過一天一包煙還拿奧運金牌的日本柔道選手，也帶過有什麼吃什麼的俄羅斯摔跤手，運動表現極其出色。我也帶過飲食非常乾淨的選手，在墊子上的表現並不比誰更好。（約翰·達納赫）
Lex 補了一個角度：很多頂尖運動員對食物的信念本身在起作用。他們相信某種吃法對自己有用，那種信念讓他們在全世界任何地方都能正常發揮。特拉維斯吃垃圾食品，一部分原因是他在全世界比賽，沒法保證有乾淨的好食物，所以他訓練自己的身體在麥當勞也能打。而麥當勞到處都有。
聖皮埃爾還認真地講了宿醉後的芝士漢堡，說那種高脂高油的東西能吸收掉酒精的殘餘，第二天會舒服一點。Lex 說他媽媽也講過一樣的話，他十九二十歲時試過一次，確實好一點。達納赫在旁邊說，這玩意兒沒法做科學的對照實驗。
力量訓練，三個人三種答案
聖皮埃爾說他早年像健美運動員那樣練，因為那個年代的審美就是施瓦辛格、尚格·雲頓。後來他明白了效率這件事。
我做交叉訓練主要是為了長壽，更像理療。目的是讓身體做一些跟格鬥裡每天重複的動作不一樣的運動，保持健康。我不相信深蹲五片槓鈴、臥推三片能讓我變成更好的格鬥選手。我不相信，我甚至認為它可能傷我多於幫我。（喬治·聖皮埃爾）
瑞安相反。他做健美式的分化訓練，胸加三頭、背加二頭，一週三到四次，另外加達納赫很早就帶他們練的體操類動作：懸垂舉腿到單槓（toes to bar）對應的是防過腿時把對手往胸口拉的那個動作，還有 muscle up。他的原則很清楚，舉鐵永遠是柔術的補充，不能為了舉鐵翹掉柔術課。他練的強度中等、次數很高，四組二十次，最後一組做遞減組，把肌肉打到力竭。
臨近比賽我會把強度提上去。最大攝氧量很難大幅提升，但舉鐵能讓我習慣精神上的紅線狀態。柔術裡很多對手沒法在技術上把我逼到快死的地步，摔跤可以，因為我摔跤效率不高，特別累。四組二十次的腿舉和深蹲來回換，最後快死的那種感覺，能在賽前把我帶進比賽狀態。（戈登·瑞安）
達納赫給了個統一的框架：技能和屬性共同決定纏鬥效果。有人靠什麼神奇藥水力量翻倍，他一定更難對付；耐力翻倍同理。這些都是好事。問題永遠在成本，你要從別的地方切時間。到了某個水平，力量訓練的收益開始急劇下降，技能訓練的收益幾乎不下降。
瑞安還講了個現實層面的觀察，形象這件事很麻煩，大多數人更在意看起來像不像，而不在意功能好不好。
把一個不像格鬥選手的運動員賣出去很難，菲多（Fedor）那樣的形象是難賣的。你可以把它當賣點，這哥們看起來不該贏，但他一直在贏。但如果給大多數人一個選擇，長得像施瓦辛格但輸比賽，還是長得像菲多但贏比賽，大多數人會選施瓦辛格。所以很多運動員有一種經濟上的強迫感，必須保持好看的體型來提升商業價值。（戈登·瑞安）
這段對話裡有個很有意思的細節。三個人聊著聊著跑題跑到了動物打架上，開始認真討論銀背大猩猩和熊誰更強、老虎能不能打贏獅子。瑞安說他跟達納赫經常半夜三點互發動物打架的影片，達納赫會回一句你看看這個。Lex 說如果聽眾看到你們發的這些東西，會嚴厲評判你們。達納赫說，是的，會評判得很嚴厲。
三個人給年輕人的建議
瑞安先說。他26歲，開口就說自己資歷不夠給建議，然後給了兩條。
第一，找一件你既有天賦又享受的事。你有天賦但不喜歡，很難長期做下去；你喜歡但很爛，也很難成功。練一個月、兩個月、一年都容易，但連續五年、十年、十五年每天都來，是另一回事。（戈登·瑞安）
第二條是關於怎麼重新找到樂趣。他說自己三個階段：白帶時是學新東西的快樂，每天看到一個新動作就興奮；職業化之後是訓練營的快樂，看到訓練成果在高水平對手身上兌現；等把所有人都贏過一遍之後，快樂變成了成為自己能成為的最好的那個版本。他相信35到40歲之間會達到巔峰，也很清楚再過一兩年他會比現在更強，這件事本身讓他興奮。
聖皮埃爾給了五條，是全片資訊密度最高的一段。
第一，找到你想成為什麼、想做什麼。長期來看，你可能要做一些你並不喜歡的事，但那是為了把你推向未來想去的地方。你的父母想讓你成為的那個人不重要，你的朋友想讓你成為的那個人不重要，重要的是你自己想成為誰。（喬治·聖皮埃爾）
第二條是建團隊。他說任何大的成就都不可能一個人完成，團隊裡必須同時具備兩樣東西：能力和信任。他見過太多生意人招了信任但無能的人，最後不得不開掉一個朋友；也見過能力很強但不可信的人，最後把事搞砸。這兩樣缺一樣都不行。
第三條是吃苦。他說你必須穿過地獄，但眼裡要看得見盡頭的光，那個夢想是讓你熬過難熬時間的燃料。
第四條是持續投資自己。他講了一段很少公開講的細節，很多運動員開始有錢之後買奢侈品，他沒有。
我開始賺錢的時候，把錢花在飛去紐約跟約翰、戈登他們訓練，學柔術裡最新的東西；飛去泰國練泰拳；飛去洛杉磯打磨拳擊。因為我知道後面有人在追，我不想被追上。（喬治·聖皮埃爾）
第五條聽起來最不像成功學，但他強調這一條最自私。
回饋。我說這個不是因為我人好，也不是為了形象好看。我只回饋給我自己選定的那些人和事。因為當我知道自己更成功，就能回饋更多我在乎的人，這給了我新的動力。到了頂峰之後，你必須找到新的動機，因為滿足就是終結。我不再為自己比賽了，我比賽是為了幫助我在乎的人。（喬治·聖皮埃爾）
達納赫把前面兩個人的話收了個口，然後加了自己的三條。
第一條，回到開場那句：找出你所在行業裡被低估的東西，讓世界看到它真正的價值。
第二條講得很不客氣。
你不能一輩子做跟所有人一樣的事，然後期待不同的結果。這是徹底不理性的，甚至是一種傲慢。它等於在說，我要做跟大家一樣的事，但我相信我特殊，所以這些事對我會有用。這就像在說我很特別。你不特別。我們都差不多。要變得特別，你必須展示出別人沒有的技能。（約翰·達納赫）
第三條是聚焦。他說你不可能什麼都學，但你可以選一到兩項技能，做到全世界最好。聖皮埃爾在巔峰期，把打擊和摔跤融合這件事，全世界沒有第二個人比他更好；把地面纏鬥和打擊融合這件事，也沒有。他不是每一項 MMA 技能都最強，但這兩項他是絕對的第一，而這兩項技能撐起了他職業生涯絕大多數勝利。瑞安早期可以說腿鎖全世界沒人比他強，後期又加上對降服鎖的晚期防守、過腿、防過腿，這個清單還在變長。
你開始對自己技能組合感到滿足的那一天，就是你開始無聊的那一天。對運動員來說，無聊是死亡的前兆。只要你還在這些方向上生長，你就能在這個遊戲裡待很久。（約翰·達納赫）
整場對話快結束時，Lex 問聖皮埃爾，作為一個靠點評別人表現成名的人，你怎麼評價我們今天這場對話的表現。聖皮埃爾笑著說，我不為所動。然後補了一句，我很喜歡，一直在學習，被刺激到了，很享受。
達納赫說，歷史上很少有這樣幾個人同時處在巔峰還能坐在一起聊天的時刻。瑞安戴著牛仔帽坐在旁邊，說下一次就我們三個一起拷問約翰，哪個動物打得過哪個，聊三個小時。
整場聽下來，最有意思的地方在於這三個人講話的方式。他們幾乎沒有用過天賦、熱情、夢想這類詞。他們談的是被低估的角落、技能與屬性的成本核算、恢復的心理因素、時間視窗的物理限制、規則的加權偏向。把同一個問題拆到力學和成本的層面，是這三個人共同的語言。
達納赫那句最直白：傳統會錯，你要回到力學去問它為什麼高、為什麼低。這句話不只適用於腿鎖。
- 列出你所在領域裡那些被同行預設忽略的東西，然後問一個力學問題：它為什麼低效？如果答不上來，那可能只是傳統，跟事實無關。達納赫當年就是這麼看腿鎖的。
- 把你要練的技能分成兩類，一類是別人都在練的主幹，一類是別人不練的邊緣。主幹保證你不掉隊，邊緣才有可能是你真正的位置，別把時間全押在主幹上。
- 給自己記一個恢復日誌，寫清睡眠、情緒、壓力源和訓練量。覺得練不動時先排查睡眠和情緒，再懷疑訓練量本身。
- 技能訓練和身體訓練發生衝突時，預設選技能。除非你有明確的、可量化的理由說明某項身體屬性正在決定你的結果，否則技能的回報率遠超屬性。
- 選一到兩項能讓你說出這件事全世界沒人比我更好的技能，剩下的時間用來維持不拖後腿。達納赫說這是頂尖選手的共同結構，跟天賦無關。
- 準備週期允許的話，把練的時間壓短、強度提上去，讓每次訓練都更接近真實的時間視窗。聖皮埃爾最後一場比賽改成三分鐘回合，就是為了逼出終結能力。
- 訓練中主動體驗一次徹底的力竭，看自己在只剩技術的時候還能做什麼。這是最快看清自己技術真實水平的辦法，代價只是丟面子。
- 找人組隊時同時考察能力和信任，兩樣都要。缺能力會拖垮事，缺信任會毀掉關係，兩者都不可妥協。
- 把錢優先投在能提升你的東西上，課程、教練、異地訓練、新的訓練夥伴，而不是外在的符號。聖皮埃爾二十幾歲做的選擇，二十年後還在給他回報。
- 給自己找一個比贏更大的動機。滿足感出現的那天，就是進步停止的那天。聖皮埃爾說他現在比賽是為了幫助他在乎的人，這無關姿態，是維持動力的技術手段。
文稿來自公開 Kaggle 資料集（rajneesh231/lex-fridman-podcast-transcript），為早期自動轉錄存檔，可能存在識別錯誤。
Humans are fascinated by violence and you've got to ask yourself. Why is it the rash guard? Yes And I talk so much shit that I'm like man if I lose this is gonna be rough. You're learning this shut the fuck up I got you man. You were powered by McDonald's and Coca Cola I want more and then I expect them and he didn't want to fight anymore. I'm not impressed by if George st. Pierre and And Khabib Nurmagomedov face each other in their prime who wins? I'm Here with three individuals each of whom are considered by many to be the greatest of all time in each of their respective disciplines The greatest MMA fighter of all time George st. Pierre the greatest martial arts coach of all time John Donahue and the greatest submission grappler of all time Gordon Ryan So, let me ask the first question. You guys didn't see the question. No preparation here What is the key to your success each of you one thing or multiple things that come to mind? John go first Is it the rash guard Yes, I I like that you choose John right off the bat. I seem the most nervous For me it's about Finding a way to work in A world where most of the answers are already known Okay, and in any developed sport by the time you enter that sport most of the basic precepts the the the major techniques that the major mechanical understandings of the sport are long since worked out and so in a highly developed world The key to success is to be able to identify Some area of the industry that you're in which is currently undervalued To do what the other people are not doing deeper than that you're Everyone has a view of okay. These are the the main skills of the industry. I work in at any given time some set of skills attributes Will always be somewhat undervalued they're underappreciated by the people in the game You see that at any in any given industry there are always trends which change The nature of the industry over time so fashion trends in the clothing industry, you'll see at any given time is a General wave of fashion which pushes most of the people in the industry in a given direction at a given time What makes people stand out is the ability to look at the various possibilities out there and say here is something which is genuinely useful, but which is currently being underused underutilized and I want to bring that back in and develop it and Because it's an inherently useful product It will be very very successful in its initial applications against people who aren't currently using it If you can do this in whatever industry you're in I believe you'll be highly successful successful to the supplies both for actual specific like techniques and the also tactics as well in the case of Jiu Jitsu, so for example in my sport leg locks have always been around Okay, there's there's no shortage of people you can look back in history who applying leg locks Nonetheless as in across the industry Leg locks were undervalued and underappreciated. There was a general sense in which most of the leading figures of the sport For most of the history of the sport of Jiu Jitsu tended to deemphasize leg locks and When I looked at them I said there was immense potential but it wasn't being realized and needed to be changed Since then that has more or less occurred now most people coming into the sport understand that leg locks are an important Aspect and they're no longer undervalued if anything it's gone too far the other way and now perhaps they're a little overvalued and the this kind of fashion trend exists in every industry and The job of anyone who wants to excel in a given industry is to be able to identify okay, what are the things that are currently out of fashion and undervalued and then Look at what is their actual objective value and then work To to to bring them back to the forefront. So John brought up fashion George is wearing a really sexy shirt. So Assuming that's not the reason is there Is there something that comes to mind as the key to the success of your incredible career? Well, of course everybody knows the famous and sort of every athletes are saying oh, it's could be genetic I was maybe gifted that certain predisposition. I worked really hard but I think something that People don't talk enough is when everybody sometime go, right? I Was never afraid to try to go left and I felt many time trying to do things that were not Known to be things that would bring me brought me success, but I tried it, you know I was very often I was the first of trying new things and I felt many time but certain times it gives me a certain advantage and for example, I was sometime fighting guys that add much better wrestling background and than me on paper and nobody before that fought those guys never nobody had there to try to Take them down because their wrestling pedigree were so good and I didn't have on paper the wrestling pedigree to take these guys down in a fight, but when everybody Tried to go right I was going left I fought them in a different way and that was The blueprint to beat certain some of these guys, you know what I mean? You know what I mean? So yeah, so we'll actually talk about a few fights where that you did just that this is fascinating But let's say at the high level so Gordon again sticking on fashion I may compliment your incredible badass hat trying to fit in here We should say we're in Texas now, so he's Become a Texan overnight. So what is there something you can speak to that you would attribute to as the key to your success? yeah, so first of all, it has to be a role where you don't ask us all those same questions because How am I supposed to compete with the answer? John just gave There's nothing I can do that's gonna top that. Yeah, but uh, I think it's uh, there's many things But I think the number one thing is just is John When I came in, I was a blue belt and I was beating brown and black belts in competition already But he really changed my way of thinking about the sport I would just come in and if something wasn't working I would just do it harder and faster and more aggressively and that just degenerated me into a degenerated into me spastically knee sliding into cross hashi garami against Eddie Cummings for six months and then just getting heel hooked repeatedly and I'm like, this is not working and Eddie like when I met him was like a chubby Librarian looking guy and I'm like, there's no I'm like six to like a jacked like 170 and I'm like There's no way I'm losing to a guy who looks like this, but he just kept heel hooking me So I would just go harder and harder and it wouldn't work and then John's like well If you learned leg locks, you might you might have some more success And then I was like, yeah, that probably makes sense And from then on I kind of just changed the way I thought about the sport instead of doing doing things harder I would actually try to get better at jujitsu. Do you remember like a turning point where? You became as opposed to being mediocre not just in technique but an approach to To great. Um, I think it was somewhere around brown belt level when I was training consistently So I trained full time with John when I was purple belt mid level purple belt and towards the end of my brown belt Days, I was beating up like legitimate like ADCC champions in the gym. Um, so I think like Brown to black belt was a big thing for me And then when I won my first EBI and I was I submitted Yuri who won ADCC and I beat roost them Um, so I think that was like my turning point as a competitor But I think I started to to reach world level a little bit before that I think somewhere around brown belt mid level to late level brown belt It was some of that mental like it was there a moment when you like after a training session you realize I can actually do this Like I could be at the top of the world world class The critical moment for me was when I think it was right Right when I got my black belt, maybe a few months before I got my black belt we had a former ADCC champion come into the gym and we did a hard round together and I think I submitted them like four or five times and No one knew who I was. I never won anything up into that point and I was like, okay Like if this is like one of the best guys in the world and I could submit him multiple times around I think that this is like something that I actually could do professionally and make a make a career out of this Okay. So the actual performance was the like you don't need to believe before you could perform like a lot of Olympic gold medalists they They have to believe before they can perform because like they're getting their ass kicked for a long long long time Yeah I think but the best way for me to believe in something is to have Repeated success doing it against high level guys Like I'm not gonna just believe I can do a double leg if I can't a double leg on anybody So for me the the belief came from the repeated success in the gym Yeah, but to get to the point where you're submitting somebody like your ASMO is like one of the the greatest grapplers ever It's like a long journey Yeah, but I had the confidence I had the belief in myself because of the success that I had in the gym prior to that got it Even and it's one step at a time first. It's the brown belts then it's the black belts and it's world class. Okay George was there a turning point for you when you you thought like I can actually do this Yes, I I always dreamed to become champion but I think the turning point that there was that there was two turning point and And there were my two losses First my losses to Matt Hughes I went into that fight Just to not lose I was not fighting to win and it's after the fight when I watched the Replay of the fight. I realized I was like I was doing pretty well But during the fight in my own mind, I was not seeing it that way I I thought I was getting dominated by Hughes like a hundred percent, but when I watched the replay I Was like man, I can I can beat this guy. I was beating him until I made that stupid mistake so I was very frustrating but but I That's what gave me the mentally the the championship level mentality and then I became a little bit overconfident because I start beating everybody after that and I Start to believe the hype of people when they look at me. They were like, oh, he's the new Upcoming superstar and he's gonna be unstoppable and and then when I became champion, I I lost to to to Matt to Matt Sarah, so before I believe my first failure was because I had a lack of confidence and and My second failure was I was because I was overconfidence. So I think it's there's a perfect Center of confidence. I mean, I mean it's good to be confident because John taught me like confidence It's it's like money in your bank account if you you can have all the skills in the world, right? and and if you're If you don't have the confidence, it's like you it's like you can you can be a millionaire? But you don't have access to your bank account. So it's that's a little bit the analogy that John told me So that's how I feel a confidence plays for Natalie but to be overconfident I think it's always good to to be aware to be afraid of what can happen So to have a perfect balance of confidence and fear to me That's what mentally gave me the edge to become I believe successful in my sport playing off that John gave me a speech one time and he was like you have to be able to like flip a switch and turn it off where like a guy like Mayweather or someone who goes out who's super confident and He plays the character of someone who's like no one can beat me I'm the best that there ever was and that's it But if you look at me actually trained very hard You can't you can't play the persona of no one can beat me and have it translate into your life and just think that you're So good that you don't have to do anything and no one can ever beat you You have to be able to play that public persona of no one can beat me But then you have to actually do the training to make that happen You can't just you can't believe your own hype and say say that you know, I can just do whatever I want No one's ever gonna beat me if the able to switch between the persona and the actual athlete and that made a big difference for me it's tough because like you're you you dominate such a large fraction of the world and grappling and The George to just the perfect dominance after those two it's hard for the confidence not to just Like how do you avoid the confidence not becoming a thing that weighs you down where you completely deludes your mind For me, it's just number one the guys in the gym are so tough So the guys in the guys in the gym that I train with are always like nipping at my butt and always giving me new New problems to solve and for me, it's really just about trying to learn new stuff over time So that keeps it interesting for me and it's not really about You know, no one could beat me I don't have to train or have to do it I could do whatever I want It's more what keeps me in the gym is more about the fact that I'm learning new stuff all the time of working on something new and progressing to new levels at all times it's not I don't just come in and do the same thing over and over again and That gets boring you just come in and you don't learn anything new and you just do the same stuff for years at a time And okay, okay This is boring But when you have new stuff to work on and new goals short term and long term goals to reach then it makes it interesting it's a For me, it's a little bit like Gordon says is the fear because sometime in the gym even before I when it was competing I was I was getting my butt kicked But I don't care what happened in the gym I mean it hit my ego, of course because I'm a proud person I'm a competitor even in the gym but it's not a malicious competition competition in between each other when you fight you have to be malicious you go there to hurt the guy but it it hit it hit me in terms of my pride when I get beat in a gym, of course, but that fear That I don't want it to happen in public especially not during a fight that what keeps help me keeps the balance between confidence and and and and fear You know what? I mean? It's kind of weird. It's a mix It's a mixture of both that I believe I to me Help me Succeed to have the right mindset to fight and I talk so much shit that I'm like man if I lose this This is gonna be rough. So yeah, you put a lot of I mean that's that's the hard thing to do when you talk shit when you when you play the heel is Is so massive perform. He's the pressure is I mean you have to be good under pressure It's the Conor McGregor thing, you know, the reason I actually started talking shit was actually like indirectly because of George because Because I will become the opposite of George I won I won my first DBI and I I didn't talk shit and everyone was like being like, oh, you know you only beat Yuri because because he was tired or you know this or that and if they have a rematch under any of the rules that he would have lost and I'm like trying to figure out what I'm gonna do So I'm strolling through George's feed one day and he posted a clip of him beating someone and I look at the comments And I'm with this in mind. I'm like George is the nicest person of all time and if you look at the comments, it's like 10,000 comments and like 9,000 and 900 are just people calling him like all you do is lay and pray you pussy You suck you can't finish anybody and I'm just like I'm looking at this and I'm like people are gonna say What they're gonna say regardless, they're gonna talk shit regardless. So you may as well just say whatever you want and then just be yourself Is there some aspect that's I mentioned Conor McGregor. He he crossed the line with Khabib At least in the eyes of Khabib Is there something you ever regret about crossing a line or does that you ever feel like there's a line? Or do you just keep pushing the line? Uh, I basically play it per per person I just I basically fire back with like one step above what what they do. It's always plus one. Yeah. Yeah, okay So I go I usually go hard like they fire a bullet then I drop a Duke And then and then after that initial shot then we go back and forth and I'll just keep one upping them So, you know, there's a lot of people that love you, but there's also a lot of people that love to hate you. Yeah it's so like what do those people like energize you or do you just Or is it funny to you? Like what as an athlete as a performer? You should not think about them It's like a fun thing It's like it's just like a fun thing that keeps me occupied Like because like because most of them that like talk shit they like just say stuff that's factually incorrect So then I just argue with like actual statistics. Yeah, it's just like You suck or you're not gonna beat this person. I'm like, I've already submitted that guy Yeah, so I just it riles them up and it's just it's just a fun thing for me to do my my downtime Yeah, your responses are usually very factual. It's very scientific. I appreciate Thank you. You actually you start by talking trash, but then you respond with science. Yeah, it's great. Okay. It's good mix. That's a good mix I Mean a topic of haters are more specifically sort of doubts within yourself of doubts around you as you're coming up Maybe George you can comment. Oh, we're just ignoring John completely in this conversation. I Was gonna ask you another question, but let me just ask you on this on this topic Are there times in your life yet? You were surrounded by people that that doubted you all the time And so what is there something you could say as in by way of advice how you overcome? The doubt either yourself or others around you all the time the first time I Manifest my desire to become a professional Mixed martial art athlete everybody doubt me Just not even I'm not talking about the UFC just to become a professional fighter Everybody doubt me and I became a I became a professional fighter. I had few amateur fight I won them all then I I fought my first fight in In Montreal, I won and I became a professional Then I I told people that I wanted to fight in UFC. Everybody doubt me again. So it's a normal thing So I work my way up beat a few guys then I at the time Pete Spratt was So for example, the lion gets a lot of credit for some reason i'm not exactly sure why the king of the jungle well, I You know a lot of people told me that the lion for example, the tiger can Be a lion. Yeah, this is one of those age old debates It's okay. Yeah. Well in grappling in fighting it feels like some animals use teeth And some use other parts of their body also like bear actually, I don't even know how they They have extraordinarily powerful And long claws and in addition, they're powerful biters as well. So I wonder and the same with the silverback I don't know how much they're I love that we're having this discussion I think we need joe rogan for this discussion. I think so. Yeah, I think so. Um, so uh Your your question has gone in about five different. So it started with strength. Uh, and let's go back there, which is Do you think for for an athlete in jiu jitsu? Let's let's stick to grappling All right. Do you think strength strength is helpful or detrimental? Uh, i've always believed that two things will Uh create whatever Whatever effectiveness you have in grappling those are your skill set and your attributes And the best athletes are those who excel in both um Don't kid yourself if someone gets twice as strong By some kind of magic potion they're going to be a more effective grappler if someone gets Twice the level of endurance that they had previously they will be a more effective grappler These physical attributes have a very important outcome on the uh, sorry A very important effect upon the outcome of matches Um, it's always a good thing to be stronger. It's always a good thing to have better endurance It's always a good thing to have better balance or whatever other attribute you throw out there. Um Gordon's point was okay. Everyone agrees on that but there's a problem in order to build these things You have to carve into other elements of your training regimen and then it becomes well, which becomes more important increases in strength or increases in skill There comes a point where Investing in strength training starts to get diminishing returns I can't tell the difference between someone who bench presses 300 pounds on the mat versus someone who bench presses 400 pounds, but that's a big difference That's a hundred pound difference and for an athlete to go from bench pressing 300 pounds to 400 pounds That would require a great deal of uh of training effort and focus But if I can't tell the difference when I grapple and then why bother? Okay, once you get to a certain strength level It doesn't really help that much to go from a 400 pound bench press to a 450 pound bench press If that's the stage you you're really getting a diminishing in returns on your training investment um now skills on the other hand Experience far far less in terms of diminishing returns every new skill you develop can translate Very very well into big increases in performance. Look at the example of gary tonin that we talked about earlier investments in guillotine Made a significant improvement in his uh effectiveness in matches and led directly to some of his most important victories um But if he had invested the same amount of training time in Developing a bench press that was 25 pounds more than previously that would have had no outcome no Influence on the outcome of those matches So the question always becomes yep. Everyone acknowledges that these physical uh Attributes are important and everyone understands that becoming stronger or fitter is a desirable thing and every athlete should work on them The interesting question becomes okay at what point? Do you start to say i'm not going to be helped by further increases? in in strength training or endurance training, um And my point with my athletes is in the overwhelming majority of cases If there's any kind of doubt invest more heavily in skill training than attribute training Especially once you get to a certain level on the attributes Well, the interesting thing that I think you should account for with strength training is um There's instagram There's the world. It's uh, it seems to be more fun to build muscle mass Um, it's like an addiction that people have there's also economic elements too Like most people I I hate to say this but it's true. Most people are more concerned with image than function and uh Uh, it's hard to sell A fighter or a jiu jitsu athlete who doesn't look like one looks like fedor Yeah, it's a tough sell now You can do it in fighting and jiu jitsu because ultimately it's about whose hand is raised at the end of the match And you could even use it as a selling point You can be a guy that doesn't look like he should be winning but he is winning that is a selling point but if you give most people a choice between Looking like arnold schwarzenegger and winning matches versus looking like fedor and when he matches most people will select I wish I'd rather look like arnold schwarzenegger And so most athletes feel almost like an economic compulsion to be in good shape and in order to advance their marketability Yeah, nike's not going to sponsor fedor or tank abbott. Yeah tank abbott No Fedor, maybe Yeah, yeah, we need at the very top. There's there's something about uh aesthetic Like image of strength and power. It's also and also a personal thing if you look at yourself in the mirror Do you like what what you see? You know what I mean? Yeah, you find yourself attractive You know, what what can you do to make you look better? And I think to me to me it was something that one of the reason I work out it's also for for that Well, i'm sure if fedor looks in the mirror. He says I look damn good today Yeah, you could be too. It's also a genetic factor some people, you know, it's harder for them. I mean, yeah All right. So the question on training you guys john gordon train Often three times a day every day um, georgia had a different like, um a different approach to training so like what is uh For for no, I don't mean that in a kind of the opposite or something. It's just not every single day so and obviously you are legitimately at the very top Uh in terms of performance accomplishment in the field. So what have you learned about? What it takes to train to become not just the lead but the best well, I I um A lot of people when you say train they they see training hard. I believe you need to be very constant Uh, and uh, very disciplined you need to train but you don't need to train hard every day That's what john, uh taught me um For me is the nervous system. Sometimes I feel if I load it up too much it comes to a point that you're It's too much. There is no no more information that I can absorb so Uh, and I do believe that it's something that you can train to your the capacity your capacity of being able to learn of absorbing certain thing and uh, I did a lot of volume of training but when I when I Was getting ready for a fight, especially during sparring day I like to do it quick because my when I fight it's five round of five minutes I don't like to to spend um uh an hour or two hours in a gym because I need to know how hard I can be Going for 25 minutes, you know when I not for two hours for 25 minutes and at my last fight john and I we we we We were thinking of how could we make me more uh Of a better finisher, you know more opportunists And then john I remember we we when we were training with gordon jake shill came gary tonin my round of grappling were different than if I would be training for uh Abu dhabi, you know for for abi or like some like in grappling the round or longer but in a mixed martial art fight it's very rare that you're gonna spend more than Four minutes or four minutes and a half on the ground. It's it's very unlikely. I mean it could it can happen but so I Do you remember we did the round three minutes? We did all the round I was doing were three minute round So it gives a different Uh rhythm to the training it forced me to be more opportunist To be more of a finisher because I had only three minutes to to do what I needed to do So if I if I see something I need to to go for the kill right away. I cannot be too over patient You know what? I mean? And it it served me well in my last fight and I think it that's a good blueprint to follow um when you're a mixed martial art fighter, I if I would if the result was great and I think Maybe I should have done that before it was a great great idea that we had not to do Be very careful on doing too much volume Yes, try to get out and then try to focus on finishing and getting getting out as quickly as possible To build up your foundation. I believe you need a lot of volume But when you get ready for a competition, you need some to be something that replicate What you're gonna be facing? What do you what are we talking about? What do you think? Like is there rest days five days a week? Twice a day once a day. Is there any one formula like that? I don't know This this I don't I do not believe in overtraining. I believe in under arrest I believe You can be under arrest and people Always link that immediately to the volume of their how much volume they they train Which it could be something else. How are you feeling? I'm emotionally. Are you you having uh, Problems, uh personal problem. Do you have a have a hard time sleeping because you have a like someone died or I don't know Like you you hold money you're broke or what like, you know what I mean could be anything There is something that can affect you psychologically or emotionally That made it in a way that you cannot sleep. Well because your your stress your cortisol level is high You're you know what? I mean all these factors need to be take taken in consideration. It's not only about the volume of training people always think The volume of the training is the only thing that can affect Recuperation which is not you know. Yeah, you have to minimize the amount of stress from all kinds of factors It's a very stressful job to be a professional combat athlete whether you're a grappler a boxer a kickboxer a fighter and you need to be taking as a Into account is it more or less stressful than marriage? Just kidding Uh next question, uh So, I don't know how to ask this question given what george just said but you're training three times a day And finishing And what what have you learned about what what brings out the best in you as as the elite level grappler? Um, so over the recent years have actually changed it up a little bit um when I was Coming up through from white to black belt Uh, I felt that the volume was the most important so it would be anywhere from like three To seven sessions a day Um going from school to school from new york to new jersey. Um, and I think that the volume was very important to build the skills um where I just Didn't know how to move my body at purple belt the way that I should. Um, so I think that building the skills Is uh is super important. I think that early on volume is very important Uh now that I already have the skills built. I think that acquiring more knowledge is the most important Um, so I think that the volume is the most important Is the most important um, so I find that if I do So many sessions a day like if I do three sessions a day Um, I feel sometimes by the third session i'm just like so mentally like there's just there's so much information That's went through my head the first two sessions that I feel like i'm not even there mentally on the third session Um, so I feel like doing less volume now But having more mental clarity per session is more important because I already have the foundational skills acquired So a lot of your training is almost like Just thinking like learning a lot of it. Yeah, so i'll do like I mean our schedule has been messed up since the pandemic because henzos got shut down And they were using a french gym in puerto rico and now we're using a french gym in our and in austin Um, but once we have our own school We'll have a setup schedule where I can pretty much just be there all day long But right now I do like a lifting session in the morning and then i'll come in and help teach At henzos, so i'm there mentally i'm seeing what's going on and i'm playing around with ideas in my head Uh, and then i'm there physically and very sharp mentally for the competition class during the 1 p.m Session and then after that i'll go home i'll rest and get ready for the next day What have you learned on seeing all these different athletes is there a A universal rule that applies or is it um, athlete specific? Yeah, uh, first one thing It needs to be addressed is that george and gordon play very different sports with very different athletic demands Gordon can be in matches that range from anywhere from six minutes to literally hours long um as a result, uh the overall Pacing and intensity of matches is massively different most obviously there is no striking in gordon's sport Um striking by its very nature is a much more explosive physical action than grappling is grappling is primarily an isometric kind of uh sport based around isometric tension and endurance um george's sport is It does feature a significant amount of isometric tension, but The majority of it is based around explosion. So the physical demands of the two sports are radically different different in addition the time of application is is radically different George raised a very interesting point his matches seem long 25 minutes for a championship match Um, but always understand it It makes martial arts fight at championship level if it goes the distance is really five five minute matches each round Is a match in itself and that's exactly how you're scored. You're scored by who wins the most matches over five matches As a result the application of the techniques, especially the grappling techniques has to be done at a certain pace as george pointed out realistically the maximum application time you're going to get in most situations is somewhere between 15 seconds and three minutes Even for a specialized grappler like damien meyer. There's still a significant part of each round which is Spent in set up time to actually get the match to the ground Um, it's very likely that at some point your opponent will stand up out of grappling and you'll have to reinitiate the entire process again So that even for specialized grapplers, you might be spending only three minutes out of a five minute round Uh on the ground and as a result, you've got to get your work done in a very short time frame gordon ryan Once it goes to the ground and it can go to the ground because he chooses to sit to the ground Uh may spend the entire match in ground positions. Um As a result the matches have completely different pacing and completely different physical demands and the preparation that the two athletes go through will reflect that If george saint pierre in training for mixed martial arts becomes fatigued to a point Where he's no longer physically effective and able to defend himself the consequences for that in mma training can be very deep and deep Okay, if you make a mistake in mixed martial arts because you're fatigued and tired and you take a full power roundhouse kick to the head That's some deep consequences. A grappler doesn't have to face that you can be completely Exhausted and grappling and just sit in the bottom of the mountain. Just practice just survival skills We just don't get submitted from bottom out and that can still be an effective training session complete and utter physical breakdown and fatigue can be Can end an athlete's career in mixed martial arts the consequences of training through fatigue and mma Potentially very deep and very disturbing Um, the consequences of training through complete physical exhaustion and grappling aren't really that severe Okay, you just tap whenever there's a problem just tap Um, and so they're very very different sports in the way you you prepare for them And a grappling Athlete like gordon ryan, we can take Many more liberties with physical exhaustion and the amount of hours a day you spend training Than you could with a mixed martial arts athlete like that should be a benefit. Uh exhaustion as a As a framework of learning so like from a place of exhaustion Is there any benefit to the you on the you said being at the bottom of mouth sort of understanding? Jiu jitsu or grappling somehow deeper because you're physically absolutely Absolutely, because then the only thing you have left in your favor is the training and the training Absolutely, because then the only thing you have left in your favor is your technique and then you'll see how technical you are In addition you'll get to explore realms inside your mind that we don't spend a lot of time in And you'll learn a lot about yourself and your ability to endure which will have uh Potentially great benefits in similar situations and matches. Yeah, there's uh, I mean for me for a recreational person getting Exhaustion allows you the great benefit to experience what it feels like to really get dominated At an even greater frequency than you otherwise would And there's something there. There's some animalistic thing. That's very unpleasant and then afterwards it takes you to a nice to a place of like, um humility and I don't know you get it forces you to rethink life in positive ways There's something about dominance. It can mean if you get dominated a few times you can uh, rationalize it somehow You say okay Well, I screwed this up But with when you're exhausted and you have to do like 30 minutes or 40 minutes or an hour of just being dominant Over and over and over being submitted It uh, I don't know. It's it's a very good process for For other avenues of life I find it's I can't explain why because i'm i'm uh driving home crying afterwards listening to bruce springsteen, but afterwards yeah, this Afterwards somehow you can think clearer you can see clear about what is the right path through life in all walks of life Like relationships work, but also the grappling Actually, the grappling is the hardest one to see what you have to do It clarifies other avenues the humility. It's the it removes the bullshit It's like we see The world through some kind of fog and it just removes it and now you can see things clearly. I don't know what that is I think I think it's important like you mentioned to push yourself like sometimes to see How far you can go because sometimes you you can go further than where you think and it can boost your confidence You know, you can push yourself through a certain limit And maybe you thought your limit were was before that point and you push through it But like john just mentioned It's a risky thing to do in Striking because if you're exhausted you're gonna get brain damage In grappling it's you know, you tap if something wrong, but you can do it also in strength conditioning I like to run track. I do it all the time and track and feel it it helps me to To to know myself better. I think it's important. It's a it's a good point It's like it's like the scrimmage wrestling rounds we do. It's like, you know, if you stop moving That you're gonna get scored on and you know in your mind like there's no mechanical reason Why I am why I should give up a score here, but you're so exhausted that you're like, oh man, this is terrible If I if I stop moving i'm a pussy If I don't stop move if I don't stop moving i'm gonna be twice as exhausted when we actually do stand up So it's uh, it's an interesting game. You have to play inside your mind. It's it's your That keep you that keep you uh sharp, you know what I mean? Because you just want to lay down and beat it Because you're completely exhausted, you know What do you think uh is the connection john between this ego pride thing? Martial arts and actual violence in our with our ancestors. Do you think You ever plug into that? Do you think that's a good thing? With our ancestors. Do you think you ever plug into that? You think there's echoes of something going on there or like you mentioned you have flaws and demons Is it deep in there somewhere? Do you think we're struggling with those demons? Yeah, uh, you'll need to patch up your question a little bit though. It's going to say we're different donations. Wow, that was Not only might be dominating just I mean dominating interviewing. No, no, no, but i'm not Patched up that question. Uh, it's not brother seeing where they're like, okay now we interview you But you you went down the evolution I mean, do you think do you um, I don't mean just the line between what is what is martial arts and what is violence? I mean there there seems to be a gray area And that connects us to the the evolutionary ancestors. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I think there's a deep recognition in all of us that um, and this is The evidence for this is is so easy to uh to see in in in daily life. Um If you're walking down the street and suddenly you hear a commotion and two people are fighting You will see literally everyone on that street stop whatever they're doing and watch the fight Humans are fascinated by violence And you've got to ask yourself why and of course, it's a recognition that for a significant part of our evolutionary history Violence was one of the most important elements in human existence As much as we curse it as much as we talk badly of it. Um Um, the juxtaposition between humans social nature and their their need to for each other to get along and to express love amongst the the various members of a given community there are Disputes between humans that can't be resolved and ultimately throughout history violence has been the number one method of conflict resolution um for better or for worse and there's a recognition in all of us that This is where we come from and there's a reason why combat sports have this thing where People will watch them and they might even be repulsed by them, but they find it difficult to take their eyes from it and um, uh I do believe that most combat athletes carry that sense of their even if it's on a subconscious level this kind of belief that This is who we are. Um george used the word pride and I believe that's a big part of it. I believe that um, Most Humans have this sense of self worth and pride which they're willing to fight for And uh, if it gets crossed by someone else they're willing to stand that Some people will stand more early and some people will be pushed further back, but everyone's got that That line beyond which they won't be pushed And there's some kind of deep recognition in all of us that we have that somewhere within us No matter how hard we try to bury it or what have you And that's why I believe there will always be this eternal interest in combat sports Now I don't believe that most people today have any kind of respect for unrestricted violence or non consensual violence um, I think most people most good people are repulsed by that now i'm I'm sure that as humanity Improves out into the future that will become more and more widespread but That's not to say we we can't exercise these these old evolutionary demons inside of us and um, uh and sometimes there are just disputes between different people different cultures different nations where ultimately it's going to come to Into into a shoving match and that will degenerate further into violence. There's always going to be a need for humans to be able to to express themselves Through violent methods and to use physical force to get to their their goals and objectives um our Our need as humans is always to find a balance between The two forces of conflict and cooperation We need cooperation because humans isolated from each other are more or less helpless and useless uh in order to advance human communities need to build and grow And so that sense of cooperation occurs in most of our daily lives But there will also be irresolvable conflicts where physical force has to be used to to form a resolution more resolution and so most human beings find themselves swinging like a pendulum between conflict and cooperation and um, uh, and that is something which Really gives birth I think to combat sports because sorry. I really have to ask you about this then. There's a guy even harvard uh named richard rangham And there's a lot of people that believe this he wrote this book that um Um, basically, there's a lot of people studying is what happened? How did we get from apes to humans? Like what was the magic thing? Right a lot of people attributed to fire and ability to cook meat There's a lot of different theories so he actually um His theory How do I describe this is basically that that the beta males won? that the the the Apes that were able to cooperate so you though the way you develop cooperation is that there's a big bad leader that uh, the the alpha male that you can only um knock off their throne if you cooperate And so we build big tribes that just excel the cooperation by practicing the overthrowing the leader and so and anytime an alpha male would rise up they would get would we would uh Develop our skill further and further of cooperation And so we're all just beta males, uh, the descendants of beta males that's this uh kind of theory that cooperation is fundamental and it's so distinct to the the rest of the neighboring animal kingdom So fascinating. I wonder what you think about this tension of violence of cooperation And how important is this cooperation to the core of yeah, uh who if you you can look at it in the uh, in a given training room, um Jiu jitsu and mixed martial arts is solo sports a solo athlete steps into the cage or steps onto the mat but all of your preparation is done in a cooperative training environment with many peers and Uh as much as it's an individual sport All of your preparation is done in as part of a group. Um There's a sense in which uh That's an interesting metaphor for humanity itself everything we do in life. We do alone, but we grow up in this Given community and and what have you? um With regards to the the whole alpha male beta male thing, um Humans are it's true. This fellow's correct. We you know, most Primates do have very strongly defined alpha males who rule the roost and determine the entire direction of the um, uh, of of uh The community they they build around themselves um Humans on the other hand Don't have an alpha male in that strict biological sense of someone who's Responsible for the next generation dominates all the female population, etc Physically dominates, but we do on the other hand have our own version of alpha males insofar as we have political and sociological Leaders who have a disproportionate impact on the direction of a of a community. Um uh, so was the cooperation allowed us to To have a greater scale of hierarchy with the alpha male on top or the alpha creature on top. Yeah. Yeah No, that's a fascinating theory In in nature, we're we're very weak as a species So we needed to cooperate cooperate in order to to evolve that I think Made us uh, the the top of the food chain if you look at um, Humanity in in nature, really the two things that seem to More than anything else determine whether or not a given human community will be Successful in a predatory world are numbers and technology Okay, the more your numbers increase and the the higher the technology of the weapons and support systems you have around you the more successful You'll be in a predatory world um, so it's not clear that just killing off the idea of an alpha male was the The the single biggest thing. Um, the rise of technology Uh and the growth of community After the imposition of language, these are other things that would have been Very very important factors and and humanity's rise george. You made an interesting point if you look at humans Just the raw material of humans. We're we're We're fucking pathetic. We did and a predatory animal kingdom. We're just the absolute bottom of the food chain Um, we don't have a single effective Weapon other than better than average endurance. That's about it um But you put us in a community who can talk to each other with language and give us the time To come up with technological advances such as metal um, and suddenly a human will go from no combat effectiveness in the animal kingdom to a A human armed with a simple metal tip spear can kill damn near any animal in the uh, In the animal kingdom and working as a group I'll beat your silver back. You know how i'll fight him in a deep water pool because he cannot swim So I don't have to touch him You'll be in a Because he cannot swim so I don't have to touch him you'll drown and I'll get him into the pool You know why because someone told me because we live in a community someone told me that information. So I know he passed it on to me Yeah, he taught you Well, you have to convince him to you have to somehow convince them to join you in the pool, which is very difficult It's very problem. Very very difficult. Um From a technical perspective john you've looked at Martial arts fighting in general and grappling. What's the difference between fighting and grappling? That's something i'd love to Ask all of you. Maybe john you can start like, um, well, uh when you talk about fighting you mean unrestricted Uh mma top type fighting. Yeah, it's funny. You said unrestricted mma type fight mma type fighting So there's there's this street fighting. Yep. Yeah, there's mma fighting and then there's grappling It's really the sport of grappling. You're saying okay. What's the difference between mma and grappling? Yes. Okay Um, see that would have been a much better question to ask. Um, well the uh, uh the single When you talk about grappling you're talking about jujitsu rules or yeah I mean you could maybe also mention different rule sets that somehow fundamentally challenge change the sport, you know Um in the sport of mixed martial arts uh You've got two Ways to inflict damage on the human body. You've you've got kinetic energy which is done through striking kicking knees elbows fists, um and you've got uh isometric tension used along the lines of lever and fulcrum Which can be used for strangulation and and joint breaking um In grappling you lose one of those you're no longer allowed to hurt your opponent with kinetic energy you can do it accidentally through a throw, but you're not allowed to just You know knock someone out with a throw in most grappling sports it can happen But it's relatively rare and it's it's not encouraged by the rule set so Yeah, you got close, um, uh, so So there's a sense in which in mixed martial arts you got twice as many problems to deal with and um, uh, and they occur in A much shorter time frame the single biggest difference between grappling technique as a weapon In human combat versus striking technique is time Grappling technique takes a huge amount of time to apply Okay The great advantage of grappling technique is certainty of outcome once you get there It takes a huge amount of time to set up a takedown Physically take them down Work their way work your way towards a dominant position culminating in your opponent's back and then apply a strangle hold that's a long chain of events as opposed to A strong punch or kick which can take A quarter of a second an application from start to finish and the match is over um and so there's a sense in which uh grappling is is it's It's fighting for the patient and the calculating Whereas striking is much more for In this short time frame where everything gets done in the in the blink of an eye There's a sense also which grappling is a much more forgiving sport. You can make a terrible mistake End up in a terrible position and still fight your way out and win In mixed martial arts, it's much much less forgiving If you get hit and stunned your chances of recovery Are minimal you're going to get swarmed on and unless it's right at the end of the round you it's very very hard to recover From getting hit and swarmed on. Um uh, so there's a sense in which The biggest difference between them is time of application of technique Uh in mixed martial arts, it's incredibly unforgiving in terms of time Even the smallest error can have the deepest consequences In grappling you can make massive errors and still come back and win um grappling will typically be won In a much higher percentage case by the more skilled and conditioned grappler. Whereas there is much more of what they call a punches chance in mixed martial arts where There's a much higher likelihood of a lesser athlete Defeating a greater athlete in mma than there is in grappling simply because of time of application of the techniques Even the smallest period of inattention In mma and the match is over gordon ryan could fall asleep for 30 seconds Have his opponent mounted on and wake up and finish him five minutes later. It's not going to happen in mma Okay, so the the stakes are much higher You can do a lot of damage in a very small amount of time and just the dynamic temporal dynamics of how things happen Is very different everything you'll see will be a reflection of that then you go further into things like rule sets In the sport of grappling if gordon ryan comes out and sits down in the middle of the mat His opponent must follow him to the ground and engage in mixed martial arts If you come to the center of the cage and sit down The other guy can just walk away from you. They're completely Oriented in different directions grappling is ground centered Mma is typically standing centered at the beginning of every round you have to start standing again If I disengage from a ground grappling situation stand up and walk away from my opponent My opponent must follow me up to the feet In grappling it's the exact opposite. If I sit to the ground my opponent must follow me to the ground It's written into the rule set and so one is inherently ground or oriented and one is inherently standing oriented So it's more it's more difficult to dictate where the fight happens in mixed martial arts Yes, you have to be able to impose where the fight is whereas in grappling you can simply choose it. So George, what is uh your sense of the the difference in terms of how you approached it? Uh between the two sports so you also are a student of wrestling and grappling so in preparing for fights What parts of grappling purely the sport that you have to leave behind well, I I uh I'm, very lucky. I had the opportunity to I train with I consider the best mentor trainer I ever ever had and I have Some of the best grapplers that I can train with they were they were there to help me through my career so uh for my training is Of course because I do not dedicate as much time in one specific area. It's hard to be You know a world class athlete and that in in only one particular area always for me Like the idea to be more well rounded to be very competent in every of those areas striking grappling Take downs and and all those areas then being just very good at one And not as good at as as others, you know, because I like the idea that It gives me more option when I fight someone I can Mold myself to become the perfect nemesis to a that person better if i'm more well rounded If I do not have those well rounded skill I don't have that option, you know You have less tools to work with less technology. What about you gordon? What um, You know, what do you think is very distinct about grappling in the way you approach it versus fighting? I think most of it was covered But I think that the the one one of the big things is the fact that when you're looking at mma You have a pretty general agreed upon and unified rule set where if you look at ufc versus bellator They're they have slight differences in the rules maybe um, but it's pretty much the same thing Whereas in grappling you have ebi rules, then you have adcc rules. You have ibgf rules. You have no time limit rules um, and Each rule set will play to the skills of different athletes. Um, if you have if you do adcc rules Uh, it generally is slightly biased towards wrestlers or if they can stall to the overtime And then hit a takedown in the overtime and not really doing jiu jitsu, but they score a takedown. They're gonna win Whereas if you have like a jiu jitsu Takedown they're gonna win whereas if you have like an ebi for example You have to finish the guy in regulation or you start in a jiu jitsu position with your back taken or in an armbar um, so I think that you have certain rule sets that play in the favor of certain athletes, um and Certain athletes can win in one rule set, but then they just have no chance of winning in the other Like when I fought yuri the first time in ebi I beat him in ebi the chances of me beating him on that night under an adcc rule set were probably pretty low Um when I fought liandra low under an adcc rule set He beat me that day, but the chances of him beating me on the same day in an ebi rules that were like next to zero So I think it's interesting that In mma you have one unified rule set which have small differences, but they're all generally the same um, and in jiu jitsu, you have a wide variety of different rule sets that um have uh biases towards a certain athlete skill sets you mentioned liandra low I gotta ask you again about adcc You have lost very very few times in your career Uh one I mean this is the same is true for george and uh, the only person who has ever submitted you is philippe penya black belt Yeah at black belt Um, he is adcc world champion multiple time abby jjf gi and no gi world champion You may face him adcc or elsewhere in the future um Will you beat him? uh, yes, I mean I have to say yes, right, um, but uh I fought him initially when I first got my black belt, um that I fought him a year later. So 2016 and 2017 Um, and despite what people remember about the match And whenever people talk about it's like oh, yeah, the guy who strangled gordon, but no one remembers that the first match was like a 45 minute war Um, and then the second match with the full 20 minutes of adcc and if I didn't get my back taken in like the last Minute and a half two minutes, it would have went into an overtime. Um that could change the outcome of the match um I think that if you look at philippe's performances Especially nogi specifically nogi since then it looks like he's almost gotten worse Whereas since that match uh in 2017 Uh, the only match I lost after that was against vinnie, uh, magalesh by by points and uh, i'm on like a 55 match win streak um over the course of four years, um winning all the major tournaments nogi and uh philippe since that match I think is like five and two uh, nogi Um, and he's lost his last two match matches one was convincingly where he was dominated by andre and one was by submission Um, so I don't think that he's progressed nearly as fast if anything He looks like he's worse than he was when he beat me in 2017 based on his previous performances Um that being said, I know he's going to come in training very hard for this one and he's he's going to be prepared but I just don't think that In terms of technical ability. He's anywhere near my level and um, he was much bigger than me both times We fought um the first time he was much bigger than me the second time. He was one weight class above me um, so now there's not going to be an advantage in Technicality and it's also not going to be a physicality advantage. So I think he's just going to be beat everywhere This is uh, this is a good example of the scientific response to a um, Um to a comment to a to a question. Yeah, so he's not um, That's a match you're you're not deeply concerned with And in terms of the set of opponents because you you have and you will be facing a lot of really difficult That's actually in my opinion one of the easier matches because of the fact that we're relatively the same size um, if I show up at 230 pounds like a lot of the guys are 260 270 plus so that extra weight does make a difference. I think out of that entire bracket. Um, Felipe is probably going to be the one of the easiest matches because of the fact that I can easily take him down And if I take him down i'm going to pass his guard Whereas I feel like the other guys because they're so much bigger and they're very cagey. Um, it may take me a while to actually Take them to the ground. Um And get on top of them And I think it may be they may be longer drawn out matches because of the fact that they're so much bigger and And stally it's hard to take them down, but flea based relatively my size and as wrestling is atrocious So i've already taken them down in the last adcc match So i'm pretty sure I can just easily put them down pass them and then finish them Well, i'm, not sure what response I was expecting but uh, that was that was that was phrased beautifully um We talked about the tiago alves fight that george had and john borrowed up in class yesterday I believe but the point is we're talking about wrestling and I think that that's a fascinating fight that um There's an incredible display of strategy of skill of heart Uh, george, could you maybe talk about that fight john? Maybe two what lessons you gained from that fight? Go ahead. It was you're fighting on mine Well, maybe it also tell what happened in terms of your injury I think third round. Oh, yeah. Um Um, so I was fighting tiago alves and uh in the third round I um Tear my adductor muscle Um, it happened when I was on the bottom and he I think he pushed my knee down tried to pass my guard and I Heard a pop I didn't know what I think you were going for an armbar You were on his back you switched to armbar and he cleared the leg by pushing on your leg And you went in with a preexisting injury and it tore Yes, and and it it it get worse and and I heard a pop I didn't know what it was, but I know it really hurt. So I came back standing up and there's a A famous video one that goes on the internet about when I go back in the corner And I tell my my coach i'm like, I don't know what it is. I think I tore my my my adductor muscle and Greg jackson is like, I don't care hit him with your groin I was very worried because I I wasn't pain, but I didn't know I didn't know what what I had So I didn't know the gravity of it and it it it plays on your mind So but I had to buy to bite down my mouthpiece and finish the fight, you know I knew I was ahead on the on the scorecard and uh, I needed to finish finish strong So what was your strategy there in terms of strikes in terms of wrestling so he's an Exceptionally difficult opponent to take down. Yeah. Well at at first I I I knew I would add a good jab a good You know to stay always From the outside, you know fight him from the outside and and use my footwork because he was like a tank He was much bigger and much stronger than me and uh I didn't want never wanted to stay in front of him So he was all the way out or all the way in and when I was coming all the way in It was with my uh proactive or reactive takedown where I myself initiated the takedown by uh, using a distraction like a jab to make it is is and goes up and then I go with a single double leg or uh to react like baiting him for him to come hit me and then While he's coming to hit me I go change level and and that's the way I like to take my time And that's the way I like to take my opponent down, you know some guys for example, like like uh, cabbie for example, he's very good at at Bringing his opponent to defense and use chain wrestling to to take his opponent down. I find it for me for myself. I specialize more into Explosive takedown in the center of the octagon because I found it more economical for me What what did you see you were you're commenting john about the wrestling That was that was quite interesting. I mean also, can you generally comment on the fact that george sanpia who don't I don't think you wrestled I wrestle I started wrestling. I was 19 years old, but I wrestled some very good russian guys. So they took me underneath their wing and but My ability to cover distance Come from karate does not come from wrestling wrestling is how I finish once I got the leg how I finish the takedown Uh, so the the timing and the movement and the explosion required for this karate. Yeah I think an important distinction to make here is um one which george uh made throughout his career and I Believe george you were the greatest innovator in mma history um with regards to this and this is uh The creation of what george calls shoot boxing which is the amalgamation Of striking technique in george's case mostly karate because that was his martial arts background um into grappling and in particular takedowns uh when most people say So and so has better wrestling in mixed martial arts You have to be very careful what they mean by this there are many highly credentialed wrestlers In the early days of mixed martial arts who went in and truly struggled to hit a takedown Now these are very very good wrestlers who in a wrestling match would easily put down their opponent but In a striking situation where the ranges are completely different and the setups are entirely different The stances are different even the the overall conditions are different. You're no longer wearing shoes People underestimate just what an impact it is for a wrestler to take the shoes off You lose like 20 of your forward drive the minute you take off the shoes um Uh, all of these make massive differences in whether or not you're going to be able to even make contact with an opponent for a takedown As george pointed out the true value of wrestling in mma is finishing the takedown once you've established contact But that's only about 20 of the action of a of a mixed martial arts takedown 80 of it is an understanding range rhythm setup opportunity, etc, etc, and That's not part of wrestling at all You're even the overall conditions are completely different in the sport of wrestling You start a very close range in a very bent over stance and you're expected to wrestle for In international stars for three minutes at a time Um now suddenly you're completely upright uh and You're not wearing shoes all the conditions the the the rhythm and speed of it is different The counters are completely different. It's just an entirely different animal And so george was an early recognizer of this And started to put the emphasis on direct training for shoot boxing In addition to wrestling so he practiced with very good wrestlers in the montreal wrestling club Just the sport of wrestling and that's what made him very good at finishing takedowns, but it was in his shoot boxing training Which he himself largely developed remember george started at a time when mma was pretty damn young and um Um, he we were when when you entered the sport of mixed martial arts george, it wasn't even allowed on tv Like it was completely banned. It was in his country. It was physically banned Uh, they had to fight on indian reservations and you know, and this is way back in the wild west days of mma and so as a as a young developing athlete he had to More or less do this by himself If you ever want to hear some incredible stories talk about teenage george saint pierre Who had a coach who used to make him put on boxing gloves now? He was 16 17 years old and just put him on a hardwood floor against a professional boxer who was in his Late 20s at the peak of his career and he said george you're not allowed to punch You just got to take him down while he tries to knock you out And it was and it was crazy darwinism, he was like It's like you're gonna you're gonna Adapt or you're gonna die Literally and he had that it could have been very bad, but it turns out to be great He's admitted but there's a sense here in which People think oh, you know what determines your takedown ability in mma as your wrestling skill that Your wrestling skill will determine your finishing ability on takedowns, but there's so much more to it than that Whenever people say, you know, what what are the broad elements that determine the outcome of a mixed martial arts fight Okay on the broadest possible level. I always give the same three things The athlete who can dominate the pace of the match The athlete who can dominate the direction of the match and the athlete who can dominate the setups will win the vast majority of fights They're in those three things The direction the pace and the setups you dominate all three of those You're going to win 90 of the matches. You're in Um, george could always dominate the direction of the fight because he could stop the other guy taking him down And he could impose his own takedowns at any point in a match So whether it went to ground or whether it stayed standing was always up to him George had the most sophisticated array of setups into takedowns That i've personally ever witnessed um, the whole distinction between reactive and proactive takedowns came very early in george's career and He excelled in both most people tend to favor one or the other Most athletes have a very hard time imposing Their setups on an opponent and as a result they have to use The cage as a crutch for their for their setups where they just bully someone towards the cage and then put them down on the cage George is one of the very few people who was equally good against the cage or in the open And could do so in both proactive and reactive situations And the scary thing is that as good as All of you saw him look in the octagon Um, anyone who knows george as a coach will tell you he was twice as good as that In the gym where he would often go against people several weight divisions above himself I could sit here all day. I won't name names, but I always laugh when people say oh, this is the greatest Uh pound for pound guy of all time and i've personally seen george Take that guy down and crush him in the gym And I can't say anything because it's rude to talk about that in public because it's just training But i've seen george go with people all the way up to light heavyweight some of the greatest names in the history of the sport Put them down Advanced position on the ground and dominate them in training. It's it's what he did during that time. I uh, george I I got to say I deeply admire many of the things I saw you do not just in the octagon but in training as well as um The the impact that you had on uh, the the degree to which Takedowns were used in the sport was absolutely inspirational That's why one of one of the reasons why I always say you're one of the the only athlete I ever met who taught me more than than I taught you because you opened my eyes to a whole new world of of shoot boxing and how I grew up in a time when uh, you I was laughing before when you talked about sugar ray lennard I was a kid watching that match and um, I grew up in a time where there was Boxing and there was kickboxing and then I came to america and I learned grappling and This young man here was the innovator when it came to the integration of the two Well, then I have to ask because george sits here uncomfortably being complimented um if george saint pierre And kabib nurmagomedov face each other in their prime who wins Who that's a very very loaded question how yeah, like what are the different trajectories you see? Oh, okay. How does each one win in your view if one wins or the other one wins what happened interestingly they're actually very similar in size despite the fact that George fought at welterweight and kabib fought it Lightweight if you actually see them standing next to each other the of similar height. Kabib's actually a little more thick set Yeah, he's actually heavier than you walking around. Um, uh, george walked around most of his career between 188 and 191 191 pounds And so kabib actually would ironically have a kind of size and strength advantage Uh despite being in the lighter weight division that's been the general trend as mma Has grown is that athletes will come further down and wait to make weight divisions. Um, Uh I believe that george has the best takedowns in history, uh in the open in the cage Um, kabib was his great strength was using the fence to facilitate takedowns. Um, Kabib's Other great strength was not only his ability to take people down but to keep people down for extended periods of time both of them were Powerful strikers on the ground and could do terrible damage to opponents, uh on the floor So they're both very similar in that regard Um, kabib was mostly a uh, a puncher from the back george was mostly an elbow from the front Um, but both of them could lay waste to opponents with strikes on the floor Um, both of them were highly competent with submissions on the ground They weren't submission specialists in the sense of someone like gordon ryan, but uh, they were certainly, um No slouches with submission holds. Um Um, yeah, it's just a fascinating idea. So it's almost like who gets the first takedown. Yeah, I do believe that They could probably stand up on each other I don't think either one of them would be able to hold the other down for a whole round Um, both of them are notoriously difficult people to hold down So I don't think that whoever won the first takedown wins the match. I don't think it's like that Um, I do believe that george would hold a decisive advantage in striking and distance management um, the few times that kabib did look shaky is just knocked knocked out Robbie Lawler with leg kick and The person who was my agent at the time did a great move For me, so he brought Pete Spratt in Montreal to fight me Pete Spratt came to Montreal I and I believe he didn't know who I was So he thought that he was coming to collect an easy paycheck and I and I end up beating him So that gave me the opportunity to fight in UFC Then after I was in UFC, I wanted to become champion of the world, you know but Matthews was there and he seems invincible at the time so Everybody doubt me again, and I became world champion and after when you when I was world champion, I wanted to be I was competing against other world champion of other weight class For the title, you know for the legacy and everything. So it's not no longer competing against my opponent I was you know as a competitor you always you never wanted to be you never want to be satisfied because when Satisfaction is the death, you know when you're satisfied you better retire because it's over So always I have to find motivation what you can have more. I want more don't be satisfied in life. So I wanted to be Like the best, you know, I want as I was competing, you know Like to become the best and and you know, of course that people doubt doubt you all the time Every time you say something that it's outside of the norm of the normality I want to say there there's nothing normal, but I'm talking about when you you manifest your desire to do something that takes Special attribute to to to succeed or that is something that is hard to to do It's for sure you're gonna always have people that doubt you it's so strange that people don't They don't lean into supporting like people that love you, too yeah, even people that love me used to doubt me and I believe I I you need to use that as a Positive positive thing as a motivation to prove them wrong Yeah, so for me that that was a thing when someone doubt me nothing gave me more There's more energy because I want to prove him wrong I want to look at him in the face and say hey, you see I got you man. I I did it so John do you ever use this in one way or the other by saying I don't think you can do this to motivate them to prove you wrong or more general question of You know the mental toughness required to achieve or confidence required to achieve greatness Like what's your role as a coach when you have these two athletes with regards to your your first question? Would I ever say to someone you can't do this as a kind of reverse psychology? I know My job is to prepare people first and foremost with their skills and as Gordon pointed out earlier if you're In any way a rational human being and you're noticing that you're getting tremendous success with a given move in the gym against high level opponents who Give a good read on what your actual opponent in a competition is like You would have to be a moron to not Recognize that kind of success and say this is something I should be building into my game and you will carry the confidence that You earned in the gym into the arena So I never try to use reverse psychology. I build up Everything I do in terms of confidence is to give people physical skills I know people say all this physicality on the one hand is mentality on the other and confidence is squarely in the the mental Aspect of the game, but all the underpinnings and beginnings of confidence are physical okay, a rational human being will see where they're having success and where they're having failure and confidence will Surround those areas where they're having success and will degenerate in cases where they're having failure so my job as a coach is to set them up for success in the gym with a given set of skills and I don't have to do anything psychologically after that I just If I can set you up to be highly successful With a given move or a set of tactics ten times in a row against quality opposition in the gym I don't have to do a damn thing when it comes to instilling confidence. I Will tell people hey, you're doing a really good job with that move. It's working well for you but When they nod in agreement, I'm not trying to force anything on them They're recognized they or they already recognized that long before the words came out of my mouth but on the other hand intelligent rational people will recognize when they're failing with given moves and no amount of talk on my part can ever change that if I teach Gordon a given arm lock and 15 times in a row. It tries it over a month and all 15 of failures There's nothing I can say verbally to come up to go and say hey, you're really good at that move He's gonna look at me say bullshit I'm terrible at it and that will create a crisis of confidence where Gordon no longer believes the words coming out of my mouth So I will never compromise that but isn't there a lot you just said 15 there you have to believe that Doing this arm lock 15 times over a period of a month is worth it because eventually you might get it I think yeah, that's a separate issue that that's a separate issue There are times where I've more or less pushed athletes to go in a certain direction for example When I first met Gary tone and he never had a guillotine Strangle and I I would say don't carry, you know, you're a scrambler like one of the greatest weapons of scramble can ever develop as a guillotine like it should be in your arsenal and He was like, yeah, I just grab off of the back and I said, well, there's gonna be a day You can't take someone's back and it's always good to better strangle from front and back Okay, of course, we all prefer a strangles on the back that makes sense But there's gonna come a day where it's gonna be useful for you and so that was one of the few times where I put my foot down and said you're learning this shut the fuck up and Like literally wouldn't teach him any anything else until you got a guillotine. Yeah, Gary like asked him a question he's like, let's say you're guillotine and For the first three months as gifted as as Gary tone it is and learning most moves most moves Gary gets it like in minutes, there was something going on with Gary just couldn't get a guillotine on people and Finally after around three months, he started having some success until ultimately became one of his best weapons We had to go through like 15 different variations of guillotine until he found one which actually worked reliably for him and That was one of the few times where I put my foot down and said no Do you have to learn this the long search had to do more with the physical characteristics? I couldn't figure out the right like it made sense. It made sense in the case of Gary tone because there were more opportunities per minute Of his grappling for guillotines The investment and time was worth it for another athlete. I might have said well He hardly ever gets in the situation the front headlong so guillotine so it's not even worth investing the training time Let me ask you a question on the on the competition side mentioned haters And do you think about this aspect of the competition with athletes? If there's a great question and the answer is no I'm You can see that you could you couldn't find two more polar opposites psychologically than than George St. Pierre and this monstrosity on my left and I've I've never said to my athletes. Hey, I think this is the sort of demeanor you should carry yourself with I'm myself a very flawed character and I'm the last person on earth Who should be delving out moral advice to other people? The only thing is that I you know, of course, I believe some things are off limits But as long as it's done in the context of sport with no one's physically attacking people or do anything crazy Where it just goes completely over the top then I give almost zero Moral advice to my athletes. I'm a jiu jitsu coach not a preacher I If I can if I may We are entertainers You know, we're athletes or professional athletes, but we make We make a living because of people or want to see us perform Same thing an actor or something a singer and a lot of the time especially in the fight game An event is promoted. It needs to be with emotion Love me hate me, but do not ignore me and You know it when it's authentic and It's done. Well, I think me my personally my my favorite fighters to watch are the one that are that That I that have a sort of some sort of a bad persona I really enjoy watching those guys because They bring an emotion element into a fight, which is great You know, I I feel to me it's more interesting to watch when there is an emotion involved and I believe that's why Some fighters make more money than others, you know, you know what I mean? They would that's the reason why we may we can make a living out of this Yeah, they're better entertainers, but you're right. The authenticity seems to be really important. There's actually something very interesting there It's time to break out some some secrets Do you know who like you think of George St. Pierre you think of like the highly technical polished Martial artists. Oh, this is gonna be great. Do you know who his favorite fighters to watch were? when he Kabir was either advancing forward menacingly, but when he had to fight moving backwards There was a definite asymmetry between his ability to fight going forwards, which is very good and his ability to fight going backwards Which was noticeably? weaker Um, george would often fight both forwards and backwards. It was the giago elvis fight Most of the standing time. Yeah, it was was going backwards. Um That's probably the single biggest difference between the two athletes and skill level would be in the standing position um on the ground, uh Kabib slight edge and takedowns on the fence george slight edge and takedowns in the center um Ability to inflict damage on the floor roughly equal ability to fight off the back roughly equal Ability to stand up from bottom roughly equal. It's a very very hard match um In terms of the biggest difference in skill level is going to be in a standing position and so it would come down to um, that doesn't necessarily mean that kabib would lose in the standing position. He might just push it to the fence and just use match tactics where he Kept the fight on the fence for significant periods of time um Uh, and you can win rounds in that fashion. So it's a match that could go either way Both of them are absolutely the best that you'll ever see I've always believed the three greatest mixed martial artists i've ever seen in my life were george saint pierre kabib. Noam, get off and john jones Um, the three of them have some interesting similarities and differences all three Uh beat every single person they ever faced um I I know john jones officially has a loss by dq, but no one believes that was a loss um uh, george does have two losses, but he uh Defeated both athletes decisively Uh in rematches kabib did it by having no losses Interestingly all three athletes have at least one match which is controversial in terms of who won and who lost um John jones has had several matches which could have gone either way on the judge's scorecard kabib's Uh match against glaceon t bell could have gone either way Uh george's match with hendrix was could have gone either way They they all had matches that they won which people would dispute the outcome. So that was a similarity between the three of them. Um, all three of them Have had the ability To dominate the direction of fights when they want it to go down it goes down when they don't want it to go down It doesn't um That's why I put such a heavy emphasis on that idea that a mixed martial arts champion Must be able to determine the direction of a fight. It's the single most important attribute that they all must have um As to which of the three is the best it's going to come down to criteria You you can't pull them apart Which answer you give as to which of those three is the greatest of all time will come down to the criteria that you use Okay, is it being undefeated? um Uh, is it the amount of time was it the quality of the opponents that they had if you do it by quality of opponents? I think you probably have to give it to george if you do it by um Uh measured dominance through not being defeated and it has to go to compete um Arguably you could say the same with john jones since his one losses By dq But then you could also say the last three or four fights that john's had haven't been the same measure of dominance as we saw previously so ultimately You've got those three guys in my opinion And which one you choose will come down to who it says more about who you are as a viewer than it does about The respective label of the athletes you could throw a blanket over them. The three of them are just that good and um Uh, and which one you select will probably say more about who you are as a viewer than it does about them as athletes I I believe the best fighter the goat is not even born because the generation That is present Benefit of a huge advantage They have knowledge technology that we didn't have before And we had the the knowledge that the other generation did not have before but I believe the best the goat is not even born yet as good as they are today. I think you In sport where you can measure the performance, uh track and field Olympic lifting you can you know someone Is better than the other one because you can measure the performance fighting. It's all subjective. We always debate of who would win but 10 the tendency in sport is that Performance get better. I don't think it's because the athlete necessarily get better It's because they have access to better technology knowledge And they learn from their predecessor As long as that knowledge is transferred forward Something tells me that the greatest of all time lived a few thousand years ago and it's forgotten some of the greatest warriors Like you imagine the kind of grapplers. We just the history didn't record them There could have been small tribes where they developed many ufcs And they've developed the kind of things we you have to think of like, uh, the gracies Just a small family was able to develop so much so quickly I often As this this discussion with john and I think it's very important like to mention I asked you very several times like What would happen if we would take? A fighter of modern days facing the champion of pancration. This is an interesting question And you brought some incredible good point and and people don't don't realize it, you know yeah, no, I think um, one of the great tragedies of martial arts history is our loss of uh, the historical records of pancration like most of what we know was Uh from what i'm told is actually lost in the fires of the library of alexandria And we're left with only a pitiful amount of information on uh pancration matches But what we do know is that there was a very large uh participation in the sport and that it was Why they considered the most popular Sport in the ancient olympics and that it was represented in the ancient olympics for many hundreds of years Plus a long period of time before its introduction into the ancient olympics And so the development time That it may have had would have been very significant it Uh as far as we know most of the development would have been in the major greek city states for Uh, literally hundreds of years of development Um given its prestige as an olympic sport then the best athletes would have been doing it some of the sharpest minds that we know of In human history were involved in the sport. Um, plato the great philosopher uh Was a pancreasianist in his youth. In fact, his name plato is a nickname platus is like plate it means broad or big guy like the big guy and um Uh, he spoke often about pancreasian and in his written works Um, imagine people with the intelligence of plato thinking about Grappling technique for hundreds of years in the most popular olympic sport of that time significant numbers of people with Financial backing as city states put great prestige upon olympic success. They would have funneled athletes in And brought in the best coaches and they had that for many hundreds of years like it's quite conceivable that the best pancreasian athletes were of the absolute first quality and um, uh, it it's It's so sad to think we'll never know. What was their skill level and uh, It's interesting to think about what kind of techniques they developed whether There's stuff we haven't discovered yet in class. You're talking about the most effective Of takedown strategy in wrestling and collegiate wrestling. So maybe let me ask first, uh, because we offline talked about this, too What is the highest percentage submission in grappling overall? You have to go with the rear naked strangle strangles from the back If you look at most tournaments and most rule sets It has success across all rule sets. Um, all weight divisions All body types. It doesn't require any kind of specific Physical advantage such as height, uh in order to be effective Um, it works equally well in both fighting and grappling. Um It will work regardless of how physically and mentally tough your opponent is. Okay A heel hook is a very high percentage technique in in modern day competition But if your opponent simply makes up his mind that he's not going to tap and is willing to take the physical damage It won't result in the end of a match a strangle hold by contrast will always end the match regardless of Your opponent's mental toughness So, um, I believe it's fair to say that at the end of the day the single most high percentage method of uh submitting people and grappling is the rear naked strangle. So when you look at an athlete, maybe Gordon you could speak to this like What's the best, uh, you mentioned Gary with the guillotine What's the best submission to really invest in? Is it the rear naked choke? To really invest your development like understanding the entirety of the system that leads into that Uh, I think that I mean you have to do them all obviously But if I had like one submission that I would only one submission I could pick for the rest of my life It would definitely be a rear naked Can you explain maybe some of the actual technical details of why that's the case? Well as John spoke about they're different in joint locks. Whereas You don't have to tap you can just let your leg break and then keep going with the strangle. There's there's no, uh, There's none of that. Um, and then it's just an inherent Advantage you have being behind someone Um, whereas if you go for an armbar you stop you start from top mount and you're facing the guy and then you put them Down and you're not directly behind them with leg locks. You're facing the guy Whereas when you're on someone's back you have them in a pin where you can your chest to back You have a body triangle and you're pinning the guy in place. He can't explode out. He can't grease his way out Most of the time, uh, and there's an inherent advantage you have being behind them due to the fact that We're poorly set up to deal with threats behind us So would you say that's the most dominant position jiu jitsu like more than mount? More than yeah Sack control more than I think uh, if you look at most matches historically Most guys who get stuck in positions For long amounts of time are guys that they're back taking. Um, if you get An explosive guy from bottom mountain bridge and he can off balance you and lock half guard maybe and then work back to guard But if someone locks a body triangle on your back, um, that's where you see most guys getting pinned in place for long amounts of time Was uh was the body triangle like a well understood thing Was that an invention at some point like as a system as a as a control Yeah, um, perhaps some of your your listeners can correct me on this but I believe there was a technique banned in judo called dojime Which involved crossing feet or locking a triangle around the abdominals from the back and it was banned in judo I believe because uh of intestinal injuries which occurred in the early developmental days of of judo and in the modern era When I first began jiu jitsu body triangles were relatively rare. They were not a standard part of class Um, and sometime around the late 1990s early 2000s people started to realize hey, this is a stronger method of control um it It greatly increases the amount of control you have over your of your opponent's hips and torso over regular hooks Uh, it's not for all athletes. It's difficult for most people who are of shorter thicker statue, uh, to Employ on on on big people if your opponent's very broadly built through the stomach. It's almost impossible to apply And so because it can't be applied by all people it tends not to be taught much at beginner level So as a result, it was always seen as a kind of a speciality It was always seen as a kind of a specialist move for taller athletes at a higher level of competition rather than a broad Base move for everyone or every body type in every class to employ So it just didn't get emphasized that much but in top level competition now I think you would see that it's very apparent that the vast majority of athletes whenever they have the opportunity or a choice between Body triangle and regular rear mounts the majority of modern athletes would use a body triangle So we also had this conversation about wrestling. Maybe georgie can comment on like what what's the uh, the highest percentage? Not statistically speaking. Perhaps that's also interesting as john talked about but just for you in terms of mastery of a takedown What's what's the best way to take down a human being? in wrestling well, I Personally for me, it depends For every fighter are different. They have a different set of skill For me, I when I look someone Want to bring down a tree a big strong high tree He cut it from the base So the legs that that's what we stand on so it was to attack the leg But is it single leg double leg? Is it we talked about like, uh, Well, there's also the the john smith low single. Actually, I don't even know if that's applicable for jiu jitsu at all Applicable for jiu jitsu at all. You you can use it, but it runs into the problem with submission holds Yeah, it's it's not impossible to use but without shoes and in a situation where there's a whole plethora of submission holds in the scoring It's a little more difficult to use, you know It is interesting something being a high percentage in terms of effectiveness tells a story You're saying that every athlete is different. But if it's more effective for most people I mean, it's interesting. It's it's interesting what john talked about is that the highest percentage thing is actually, um In collegiate wrestling that he was talking about is On the defensive side, so blocking a takedown and spinning around to the to the back So that's an interesting idea then also there's all of these kind of going in for a singleness switching to a double or Or wizard position and doing knee tap like there's all these kinds of combinations that seem to be Effective when you look at the statistics and it seems like there's maybe it's a scientific way of thinking but it seems like there is Some conclusion to be drawn there. Oh, yeah, I believe you need to the high percentage move There's a reason why it works. I think it's It's made for a bigger amount of people um For example, I one of my main strength Athletic strength is i'm an explosive person So i'll use technique that are explosive if I got a single leg my my one of my thing I like to do is to go for the double power double but for uh Someone else we got for example in a single leg position. Maybe he likes Like body throw better. He's more a greco guy like so or he's a judo guy. He's gonna go for something something else. So But there there is move that are I would say like you just mentioned are universal like statistically speaking. They're The highest percentage move that works for pretty much everybody everybody pretty much can do a an adhaka jimmy, you know It's very easy But it's not everybody that can lock a triangle with their legs So so those move like a rear naked choke adhaka jimmy is the highest percentage move because it's maybe It's maybe more accessible It's accessible for a bigger range. Yeah based on the physical characteristics of the people Do you draw any wisdom from these high percentages john for like in terms of what to focus on? Yeah, absolutely Um juditsu has an ocean of moves and you can get lost on that ocean You can drift for a long period of time and and and that was very little to show for it So my whole thing is focus. We only live one lifetime And your training lifetime is even shorter than your actual lifetime so in that time I must die on the mat That is the same. Yeah Uh, I I put a very high value on Choosing what I believe to be the most high percentage Uh moves and putting an extraordinary amount of focus on them Um, the only problem is that in one generation a move which can be considered low percentage might actually turn out to be high Percentage in another generation, for example We talked earlier about leg locks when I was first started judice. They were considered the ultimate low percentage move and Uh a big part of my career has been convincing people that in fact that was That was incorrect that they can be a high percentage move if we just change our approach to them um so we can't just Follow tradition And say oh, this is low percentage. This is high percentage. It has to be part of a fairly systematic study where you investigate What are the reasons why it's high percentage or low percentage with regards to takedowns? If you look at what? We can consider the most high percentage takedowns If you're in front of someone the single most high percentage way of taking them down is to get a hold of both of their legs And push them backwards Okay, if you get a hold of one of their legs and put a force on them They can use their other leg to defend themselves and hop around and Funk their way out of takedowns and cause all kinds of problems for you I don't care how athletic your opponent is if you get a hold a firm grip Of both of his legs and start pushing him backwards. He's going to fall down to his butt Now he might be able to recover from there, but he will fall down Even easier than that is to be behind someone Takedowns from in front of someone are difficult you go right into their hips their head their hands You go into all their defensive weapons. If you're already behind someone and you're doing what in america They refer to as a mat return. This is significantly easier than taking someone down from the front If you have control of their head in a front headlock position You have already closed distance on your opponent. You already have close contact. You don't have to worry about shooting anymore There's no sprawl out of that. You don't have to worry about guillotines kimoras or the uh, standard defenses Those will intrinsically be easier takedowns out of front headlock And so if we're going to talk about high percentage technique, I always go back to the mechanics of it Rather than just historical tradition because historical tradition can be wrong. It was wrong about leg locks It can be wrong about other things too So my primary thing is okay. Talk to me about mechanics That's what ultimately is going to determine whether something is high percentage or not. Um, Gordon pointed out earlier that when you're behind someone you have innate physical advantages over the other guy the human We the human body is set up entirely to to defend threats from the front We are poorly adapted to defending threats from the rear. We don't have eyes in the back of our head We can't apply pushing strength backwards If you get behind someone take downs are 10 times easier from behind someone than they are when you're in front of someone If you have to take someone down from the front get a hold of both of their legs If you can get a hold of both of their legs and impart a pushing force, you will almost always knock them down If you can get a hold of their head And work takedowns from there again It's much easier because most of their defensive apparatus is being taken away from them before the takedown even begins and so For me, the most high percentage takedowns will always be from the front double legs From the front double legs from any takedown from the back is going to be significantly easier than any takedown from the front So all manner of matte return takedowns are going to be very high percentage um And takedowns done out of situations where the opponent is broken down in front of you and you have either front headlock or front Chest wrap position are going to be significantly easier than takedowns from the open Of course, you have to consider the full Full spectrum of mechanics involved here. It's possible that an outside low single leading to a double leg is much higher percentage It's like there's a lot of chain wrestling yet You know that needs to be considered as a possibility maybe a straight on and part of this cultural too Are people afraid of this kind of thing that they came to be the case with leg locks? Are people aware of this? Are they worried about this? Are they training for this to defend this? And and then this opponent specific of course that um, you know with jordan boros people are preparing for the double Which is why he had to develop A whole other kinds of different stuff and then the head to all the different controls all the different ties within the rule set And that's where it's so fascinating to see the effect of rule set on all this judo over the past I think 20 years went through this every olympics different changes to the rule set like fundamentally different In terms of what's allowed to grip whether you're allowed to touch the legs at all. That was a big one in 2012, I think And and that changed the sport completely and so interesting It's so interesting to watch how tiny change in the rule can change the sport At the highest when you're talking about people competing at the highest level and the cool thing there is The rule change happens on a scale of every four years So you get to see people that are at the top of their game have to like recompute So it's not like you have a new generation of people coming up with the rules. They have to figure oh shit You're not allowed to like it's it's the equivalent of saying you're not allowed to kick anymore in mma Because you were not allowed to grab legs anymore in judo interestingly if you look at the case of judo if you look at the world rankings of athletes When they went through one of the most significant rule changes in judo history where they banned any form of grabbing the legs The ranking of athletes didn't change much Yeah, that tells you that they're um, there's a reason why those guys are at the top Yeah, and it doesn't have to do that. They're specific to a rule set Yeah, think about that in terms of Imagine for example in mixed martial arts if they just said hey starting next week Instead of having three five minute rounds. It's going to be 15 minutes straight That would massively change the preparation of the athletes It's a different game at that point and judo literally was a different game before 2010 and after 2010 and yet The international rankings didn't really change that much the countries that were dominant before Remained dominant the athletes that remained before largely remained the same You would think was such a massive change all the rankings would have been thrown upside down, but they weren't and uh, again It goes back to this idea that there's a reason why the guys at the top are at the top And now for something completely different we talked about aliens earlier. Yeah, so uh, george brought up babasar. I I um, will likely probably talk to babasar on this podcast and then um Um, and then john had this a skeptical look on his face about about aliens. So let me ask uh, john and gordon Uh, do you think there's intelligent alien civilizations out there in the universe outside of our own? The universe is unimaginably large the idea that we are the only life forms in a cosmos as large as this is I think naive and foolish um There's a very high likelihood that if life could evolve on this planet that it could have done So on many many other planets around the uh around the cosmos I think anyone who puts even a moment's thought into this would realize that there's Almost certainly other forms of life out there the real question with regards the alien community is um, have they got here and are they Yeah, circling our planet in um little silver saucers and making observations and periodically stealing people For experimentation purposes doesn't have to be silver saucers. It could be different other color saucers Um, and that question i'm i'm i'm not at all convinced. No, I I don't think recently um navy footage has come out showing Some very interesting phenomena if you talk to almost any experienced pilot they will tell you they've seen things in the upper atmosphere That are very difficult to explain Uh, i'll be the first one to agree with you on this There are some things out there that are extremely difficult to explain like literally ufos unidentified Yeah, I mean we just don't know what they are but to go from the idea that there's things out there that we don't understand to there's like Little creatures running around and um, uh, and these somehow exist. Uh, I just reserve judgment. I just say i'm agnostic about these things. I think it's possible but um all the evidence that i've been showing so far was insufficient to come to any kind of definite conclusions until Aliens land in central park on tuesday afternoon at 3 p.m And get out with little alien ray guns and start shooting people. I didn't believe in Many of the stories that get told Well, what about if it's not little aliens with ray guns, but something very different very very difficult to detect for us humans That's very human central creature at that point. It's a it's a fascinating idea and it's certainly possible, but show me the evidence All right, what about you gordon Do you do you uh look at the cosmos and ponder the stars often? I think it's fair points. John raised uh, something really interesting I saw the other day was uh, Someone posted like if an alien organ or a civilization 65 million light years away Somehow managed to look at earth They would theoretically see the dinosaurs because they're 65 million light years away. So like imagine us looking at Galaxies that are 100 million light years away. That's 100 million years ago. You have no idea what it looks like now Um, so that's super interesting to me about it Yeah, the the expanse is huge and so much cool stuff could be going out there. Yeah, and um, The scary thing of course is if they haven't visited us yet the There has to be a good reason for it And the the set of scary reasons of all the fact that they maybe once you get sufficiently advanced in your development You destroy yourself naturally as humans seem to be approaching now We more and more have the tools to destroy ourselves completely in terms of our weapon systems Um, and we're developing them more and more and they're becoming better and better And then we're starting to get angry and anger on twitter and instagram at each other Those are good points you're raising History has taught us that Everything that lives one day will die. So we will we will perish one day. Yeah There's also just the the sheer difficulty of um, of Of travel through space like space is an unimaginably inhospitable environment And to the best of our knowledge This even the theoretical speeds that we can attain in space even if we could Travel at the speed of light. We're not even remotely close to that Still the distances that need to be traveled to get to even relatively close solar systems. Um, Very very long if you look at astronauts Who have spent significant amounts of time in space just orbiting the earth? It has severe health effects on them. We're just not built for space. We're supposed to be In a gravitational environment, but we you're referring to your biological meat bag that's containing the essence Of the mind that is john donahoe. Maybe we can transfer the mind alone The the the the bag the meat the meat bag is not designed for space But maybe the but again, this is all that's of the mind. It's It's possible, but what do you think of concrete evidence you folks who like difficult things? Uh, what do you think about uh, elon musk going to colonize mars? Is this something that's going to happen? Colonize mars. Is this something you find an interesting or a um, Aimless pursuit. I think it's a must or a salvation We need to leave at some point the planet because historically in the past we know that we've been bombarded by a steroid volcano There are crazy things happen here. It's very unstable. You know, we if you look at it to To a lifetime of a human being it's nothing but just look 12 000 years ago. What happened, you know, so so There is cataclysm that happen all the time. It's very unstable. So if we want to survive as a species, I think it's it's we need to get out to be able to get out and spread our seed so these are the early steps on a on a really long journey, but is there something about like You know, we we don't get that exploration from most of modern society, you know, the kind of exploring that people did throughout the centuries of uh, you know coming to the North america just throughout we were shrouded in physical uncertainty of what's out there And now we get to do the same kind of exploration with mars Is there so I mean is there any aspect of you that wants to travel out to space that wants to travel to mars? There, you know, the goal is to allow civilians to travel Perhaps in our lifetime Meaning affordably you can do so now unaffordably Traveling to space and traveling to mars are two different things. I think I would like to travel into space I don't know if I would like to travel all the way to mars because of the risks involved just because Boring Is there some part of you that enjoys the I think that if I was like towards the end of my life I would like to travel to mars because it'll be nice just die just for the experience. Yeah, but if I go to mars I'm not coming back. I think that's it one way ticket May with the technology we have now maybe in the future maybe our The children of our children will will be able to to experience that to go to the well the the weekend on mars Uh, well the the whole design of the starship that spacex is working on is supposed to come back Supposed to be reusable. So it's not it's not a one way ticket. That's the whole point It's always going back and forth back and forth. What's the time frame between two planets? Like to travel from I think the current thing you'd be stuck on mars for two years But how long does it take to get from earth to mars? Oh, it's pretty I'm not exactly sure but it's pretty quick It's pretty quick. Like, uh, I don't know and the scale of months not scale of years. You might not be healthy When you come back, you know, all the astronauts they experience health issues, you know, they lose a lot of muscle mass bone density. So Yeah, I don't think the technology is good right now. I mean Let's say that it is I would love to be doing it for a weekend if it's safe I would love to be the first one to do it for a professional fighter who sacrifices body for something So there's some sacrifice we do in life, right? I don't want to be the first I wouldn't want to I least The other one but when I know it's it's safe. Okay, count me in So one of the things that people say and this is something I wonder about is It's like having children or something once you see once you're out in space and you look out and you see earth You look back at earth. That's an experience. It's not like anything else like you can't replicate it here Um is to look back at that like blue dot And that's nerve wracking Like you see like earth disappear into the distance. Yeah. Yeah disappear Into the distance and then you get to actually stand on mars and see And just to look you're standing on the ground and you're looking out And you see the planet from which you came and where you might not be coming back But there's a challenge to the whole thing. Whereas the risk is tremendous And I don't know I find that risk really compelling for some reason but that could be just The exploration like I guess that's a genetic thing too. How much do you want to explore? There's a sense though in which even in the best case scenario where they did get the technology to whisk you to mars and in a fairly short period of time it's kind of an inauthentic sense of exploration because your participation in it is no more exciting than your Participation in an airline flight to a foreign country. You're basically you You didn't have anything to do with the creation of the of the vessel. You're not in command of the vessel. You're not In any way shape or form important to the mission You're just a person sitting in a passenger seat And you get off in a destination the same way you would if you flew to singapore or london or someplace like that Well, there's a hierarchy of there's a leadership and then there's a bunch of people that all have roles There's a hierarchy of there's a leadership and then there's a bunch of people and they all have roles You don't get to go to mars without having a skill set to contribute You made it sound like space tourism where you just pay a ticket I I don't I think it's a long time before you have space tourism to mars. We have nothing to contribute Okay, like you will have to tell what you do you go through like a training program you go training program and then there's uh, There's technical things you'll be contributing. So they would bring people You know in terms of agriculture, I don't know. Okay, so this is this is better This sounds like they're actual they're more like explorers like if you talked before about explorers and and human history where Magellan sets off on his boat and every person on the boat had a specific function. They were they were all Into the mission in a very authentic fashion if they weren't on the boat the performance of the crew would somehow suffer So this sounds much better and just with like with Magellan. I think most of the crew died A significant number did yeah And from uh, yeah from bacteria, I mean from things that are unexpected and so on and if we discover life on mars I mean, who knows what that entails because that's like a manned mission to mars Would likely be very driven by the research to do all the kind of um Exploration required to find life now from uh, mr. Musk's, uh Uh point of view as a developer presumably there has to be some kind of financial incentive here, too is there some kind of financial benefit to mars missions is is presumably um There wouldn't be that many people on earth that could afford a ticket to pay for the kind of research and development that would require This is there some kind of mining on mars of minerals that would be useful I think there's a lot of answers to this but the only honest answer is the one that looks back into human history Where we did a lot of things just because we we could A lot of hard things just because we could and that led to a lot of innovation that ultimately made our life better So this is more this is why you have nasa. This is why you have government organizations. Like what's the purpose of nasa? NASA would answer that by saying okay. Well, we're helping We're helping launch satellites up there all that they'll have a bunch of answers, but the reality is the programs were funded in large part by our desire to explore the unknown and um, there's some aspect to which we have to all invest into that because historically speaking That has produced a lot of cool things along the way that were totally unexpected Like uh, but nasa is funded by public funding the taxpayer Uh, how is mr. Musk going to fund this? Well currently most of the funding was the spacex is nasa giving money uh to So they're making a competition who can who can get our satellites. We need to go to um you know for the space station to Resupply the space station or we need to launch satellites up who's going to carry those quote unquote payloads But they just need so nasa's paying whoever the heck wants to uh get kilograms of thing up into space Why did this is nasa's specialty? Why did they just give up on that? Well, they why they realized or mr. Musk came along and then bezos and others that said we could do it for one tenth the price So why did the why should the taxpayers pay for the why don't you nasa do what you do well? You know, which is like test out cutting edge stuff. Make sure they're safe and now That we've developed um a car Let us let us ups and fedex take care of Doing this at scale doing it cheaper doing it better. I mean that's the argument And nasa took what they realized is it took way way too long to do stuff When you're investing millions if there's billions of dollars into a project the the bureaucracy builds up And the conservatism builds up to where you're I mean you really have to test everything out So projects take years and then you have somebody like ilan musk coming along and says well, let's do launches every Every week and as opposed to just throwing away the rocket. We'll reuse the rocket. That was one of the sort of cutting edge inventions It's a dumb obvious idea Like ilan says why do you throw away the play? It's the equivalent as if you flew a plane every time you threw it away Why are we every time throwing away the plane? But nasa's tried that kind of thing with the space shuttle since the 1970s And yes, well, they did that with the space shuttle, but not not at the scale here that uh, it was the space shuttle was seen as this like Majestic amazing thing that requires a huge amount of investment with ilan musk is like no every basic rocket Should be reusable Nice cut cut cost cut cost. Do you do you think like? Like the more technology we have the more advanced we become the more Specialized we need to be like is that for that reason that now they they there's different branch Like you just explained out now that so they're specialized in this but they left, you know other branch Yeah, there's there's the greater and greater specializations. We build up more stuff, which is fascinating because Is it making us? more Dumb in a way. Do you think like like like yeah, I don't know like Like you you know, but I use a cell phone, but I don't know how to build it up from that I mean, it's that beta males building up this whole society um, because we're this collective intelligence we rely on each other more and more and it I do also see sort of the rise of conspiracy theories and all those kinds of things because Like i've been talking to a few folks about flat earth recently it's fascinating it's fascinating there's a large community of people that believe the earth is flat and That idea takes hold in this day and age of all the ideas. That's the one that takes hold for a large number of people and I think that's a consequence of this kind of specialization where it's just a huge amount of experts But if you look out into our world and try to reason simply about our existence We we are losing the skills to do that because more and more people are specialized as opposed to general thinkers We're like extremely good at specific things. Are we capable now to do? A robot that is self aware That's that's one the legged one. I uh, it's self aware. It's not self aware It's been listening, but it's not self aware. But do you think a human being is self aware or that's a good question I mean I ask this question all the time when the robots move there's a sense of When they turn on Something entered that robot Wow, and when it turns off something left Uh if they move in a certain kind of way and if they're if they surprise you there's certain elements that enable us to see the magic in In a living being and some of them I mean we can care we can maybe list them but it's the ability to surprise you it's the The ability to make mistakes and learn from them visibly there's a bunch of things that you just I don't know. It just feels Like it has the magic of what is a living being And which is what humans have and I try to think about how do you replicate that into a machine? So when you turn it on enough you feel like it dies every time and he reborn So for most machines, we don't feel that way. We don't when we unplug things Things we don't feel that way. I don't know why we don't feel that way. That's an interesting question. But I think when When the robot has certain qualities like memory Like ability to recognize you Yeah, you start to feel like you're turning off an organism So so whenever I have like the robots that recognize me And remember this is important that all the things we've experienced together Then it's like holy shit That's a that's a living thing. But does he remember? It feels like a living thing. Does he remember Your robot does he remember things that happened before you unplugged it? Is it like he's sleeping? Like is he wake up or is he like that? So right now we start to zero everything. Uh, no, it doesn't start at zero It remembers everything. That's the key. Every time you like you you unplug. Wow It's storing the memory, but the memories are basic. They're like they're like, okay, we walked around the kitchen and then Um, you looked at me. I mean the memories it's like data. It's just it's not like we've experienced it's able to actually Uh experience anything deep like we humans can but just the fact of memory It's like the toaster or the microwave. Don't don't give a shit about me They don't know me. They don't know me by name. They wouldn't recognize my face As being different from gordon's they wouldn't know the difference and they wouldn't Remember the microwave currently doesn't remember, you know, the times i've been sad or happy Like what food I put into it it doesn't remember this when I was being a fat ass or what I was being in good shape and All just those memories are enough to make you feel when you turn a thing off That's like shit That's a living that's that that's a living thing disappearing. Of course, that's kind of an anthropomorphism we do to each other But uh, that's something You know that That's something that makes me believe it's possible to create. Um Systems with which we can have a connection that are nonhuman like similar to dogs and cats and so on It just makes me and that's what's interesting to me because ultimately I feel like that'll help us understand ourselves And maybe practice grappling moves anyway, um Well, let me ask the uh advice question Uh, now that we're together i've asked i've spoken to john. I spoke to george What what advice would you give to young folks whether? we're talking about sport like excelling becoming great at grappling becoming great at fighting become a great at whatever sport they take on or Life in general whether there may be in high school or in college What advice would you give them to uh, excel? At that thing they take on I don't know if i'm qualified to answer this because i'm only 26 So you're at the top you said giving advice to young people. Um for me, I think the two biggest things are Are find something that you're both talented in and you enjoy um I think that if you enjoy something, but you're terrible at it. It's going to be hard for you to be successful In life at that given in that given area Um, and it's going to be hard to do something for long amounts of time Uh if you're talented at it, but you don't enjoy doing it. Um, it's easy to come in and train hard for a month or for two months or for a year, um, you can be very talented at it But if you come in it's but it's a different story to come in every day for five years in a row for 10 years in a row for 15 years in a row, um, so I think I think finding something that you're both talented in And something you enjoy are probably the two biggest things for me How do you find the joy in it? So you've been training insane amount, you know a lot you've been doing it for a long time Um, is there's is there ways to rediscover the joy in it? Yeah for me initially It was just learning new stuff, you know You come in as a white belt and every day you learn you see a different move and you're like, oh man, it's that's awesome um, and then when I started to compete more seriously towards my professional career it was Uh the joy of doing camps and seeing the result of those camps and beating high level athletes Um, and then it got to a point where i'd beaten all the high level athletes already. So Who am I gonna compete against? Um, so now for me the joy is just being The best athlete I can possibly be until I reach my pride which i'm hoping is somewhere between 35 and 40 Um, so instead of competing against the other athletes I'll be bored already because I already beat all the rest of the guys um, but I know that now I know that I can be better in a year from now or two years from now Than I am today and that for me is exciting By the way, is there some aspect of teaching that's exciting to you? Yeah, I because you become a better and better teacher over the years. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely uh, I enjoy teaching and I used to teach um A lot before I met john and then I met john and I was like, yeah, I just have no idea how to teach Um, so that's like a completely different element, uh of the sport Um, you know doing things and being good at doing things or being good at winning uh and actually being able to communicate those skills and knowledge to To a vast amount of people is two completely different things George advice for young people like yourself well First I was I would tell them find What you want to become what you want to do? and long term Use certain things maybe sometimes you don't love but where you want to propel yourself in the future? Not what your parent your your friend wants you to become what you you you want to become So one once you find it You cannot Doing it by yourself everything that are that is big achievement in life. We cannot do it doing it by ourselves so what I would say is second thing is Try to build up your team and try to build up your team to be able to achieve your goal Of people that are competent And people that you trust You need both competency and trust I see a lot of people sometime in business. For example, they hire people they that are that they trust but they turns out to be incompetent So now you have to fire a friend or otherwise your business going down the same problem If you do the opposite you are you're someone that is competent, but you cannot trust is gonna is gonna screw you, you know So it's very important to stay away from the negative build up your team people you trust and that are competent And I would say the third one is to work to work hard to sacrifice yourself Yeah, you have to go through hell sometime, but yeah, you have to see the light at the end of of it You know to keep your dream in mind is going to give you the motivation to go through the tough time It's nothing easy to go work work work. It's nothing you can accomplish without hard work The fourth one I would say To invest on yourself constantly If you do not invest on yourself on whatever you are in which business and sport the game will catch up to you For example, if you're if you become Champion at something and if you stop improving the other guys that are trying to be champion, they're gonna catch up to you So you need to invest on yourself and most people Most athlete they make the mistake when they start to having money They buy luxury stuff and that's one thing I didn't do when I start making money I was investing of on traveling to new york trying with john gordon and the guys to learn What is new in the the game of jiu jitsu? I used to go in thailand train muay thai In las angeles to perfect my boxing skill So instead of taking that money to buy me jewelry cars and to do what a lot of guys do because it's a mistake I I invest it on myself because I know there were people coming they don't want my place So I want I didn't want them to catch me And the last one I would say it seems weird I would say To give back and it's not because i'm a nice guy and it's not that I don't say that to look good. I say that When you you make it It creates opportunity where you can help certain group of people But when I say give back not give back to everybody to anybody give back only to the the cause that you want I give back Not because i'm a nice guy. I'm kind of it's kind of selfish I only give back to the people that I want to give back Because I give back to them and I know that if i'm more successful I'm going to be able to give back to people. I loved the cause that that that count for me So it's it brings me more motivation because I don't compete For myself anymore. I compete to help people. I love in a way So when you you reach the top in your game, you need to find new motivation if you're satisfied is The end of it your success will go down. So you need to To find new motivation. What can motivate you? You know, what do you want? Oh, I want to help this so I need to to be successful. I want to You know, you need to find reason who what you want to do with your success So when I say give back it's not because i'm not because i'm necessarily it's not to be to look like a nice guy To keep your motivation to be able to Keep climbing the ladder even more That's beautiful, george, uh, john Um, first off the two responses given so far covered. I think the most important things already. Um, Gordon talked about the the need for an underlying passion and enjoyment if you don't have that You're not going to have the longevity that is required in order to build Skills, which is ultimately everything's going to come down to your ability to build skills You've got to have some kind of underlying passion and enjoyment which will keep you in the game long enough To build world championship skills. It's going to take a minimum of five years and quite possibly considerably longer than that Um, george talked about the idea of community. You're not going to make it by yourself So you've got to be able to build people around you and uh, and build a trusting environment Around you to develop those skills. Um, What I would add to the the excellent points that both already raised Alludes to what I said at the start of this podcast. You've got to be able to identify some kind of undervalued Elements in whatever industry you're in and show the world what their true value is in addition You can't go through life Doing the same things as everybody else Go through life doing the same things as everybody else And expecting to get different results This is straightforwardly irrational and worse. It's even arrogant It's essentially the statement that i'm going to do the same thing as everyone else, but I believe i'm different And so they'll work for me But they didn't work for everyone else That's like saying no i'm special No, you're not special. We're all pretty much the same And um in order to be special you're going to have to exhibit skills that other people simply don't have um Thirdly I would say if you want to become something truly impressive in life You've got to be able to focus on one or two things That you do better than anyone else in your industry You can't learn everything but you can take one or two skills and the more innovative those skills are the better And you can truly excel at them. For example at the peak of his career No one in the world was better than george saint pierre at integrating striking and takedowns No one in the world was better at integrating grappling and striking on the ground He had two things that he could confidently say He could confidently say he was the best in the world at was he the best at every mma skill? Nope but he was Absolutely the best at those two skills and those two skills were skills which he used throughout his career to win the vast majority of his matches Gordon ryan at the onset of his career could confidently say there's no one in the world better than me at leg locks He could also say there's no one better in the world than me at late stage defense to Submission holds across the board as he went through his career. He started adding more and more elements It's gotten to an extraordinary degree now where you could absolutely say he's the best at guard passing the best at guard retention the list just keeps going on and that goes back to what um Gordon said earlier about keeping things interesting over time because we're always introducing new skill sets the day you start saying I'm satisfied with my skill set is the day you get bored and bored boredom to an athlete is a precursor to Death by boredom As long as you're still growing in those directions you'll stay in the game For very long periods of time. So the main thing I would add to these statements by gordon and george is this idea of Of finding something which is currently undervalued and showing the world what its true value is Understanding That you can't just use the same training methodologies as everyone else and somehow expect to be different from everyone else. You've got to Almost every great rise in human civilization whether it be groups of people or individuals Required some kind of innovation. You've got to look for that new angle Okay, george st. Pierre found it with shoe boxing early on in his career Gordon ryan found it with leg locks early on in his career and they branched out from that from that angle Add to this the idea that you want to become the absolute best in the world in your industry In one or two things that make a difference Find out what they are and focus on those things and you'll go far John Gordon george, this is an incredible conversation. Thank you so much for your Extremely valuable time george as somebody who's become famous in part By commenting on people's performance Um, how do you think we did? How would you evaluate our performance today? I'm not impressed by Yeah, thank you. I loved it. I learned all the time. I've talked to you guys. I'm It's it's great. I loved it I was very stimulated. I and really enjoyed it. Yeah, it's uh, it was it was something I really was looking forward to I was hoping that would get together It's so rare that at the same time in history There will be some of the greats together and the fact that you guys would be willing to come together and talk like this This is awesome. And that gordon he would even wear a cowboy hat. I mean, this is just historic This is like church. You're all getting together with whoever, you know, this is great and all But the next one is just going to be us just quizzing john on which animals would win in fights. Yes for the whole three hours It'll be just so we'll invite joe and you'll just be we'll we'll make it a systematic It'll be a debate between joe and john on which animal would win. John and I we have a thing that we send each other Footage all the time of animal fight where we are, uh, very intrigue about animal fight I get them like 3 30 am on it. He's like check this out Like a rhino taking a like a pig like Literally, it's not always fair. No, no, it's not ever but interesting stuff if you people would see what we send The stuff that we they would judge you harshly. Yeah Harshly. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. Thanks so much guys. This is awesome Thanks for listening to this conversation with george saint pierre john donahue and gordon ryan to support this podcast Please check out our sponsors in the description And now let me leave you some words from miyamoto musashi There's nothing outside yourself that can ever enable you to get better stronger richer quicker or smarter Everything is within everything exists Seek nothing outside of yourself Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time You'd probably be thinking of probably someone who's really technically advanced Actually, it was Mark Coleman. Oh, no, Kevin Randleman and Phil Barone He used to love watching that was a hammer house. That was his favorite. He would love those guys and whenever their fights were on georgie watching the hammer house crew and It's funny what you said about how those guys bought an intensity to To MMA that was off the charts. Have you ever met those guys in? And in their prime, let me tell you it was it was something to behold and I had this crazy larger than life personality Most of the things I did made no sense whatsoever But I mean technically but that was their appeal and they were these guys and George loved to watch them more than anyone else You never know what what could happen with these guys. I remember when Mark Coleman won the Pride Grand Prix I was in my living room. I was jumping I was so happy. I was like, yeah Yeah, he beat Igor Vorchevchin. That was like I like for to me. It was amazing. You know what I mean? Because of the emotion that they brought into the fight George is actually very interested by something you said that normally when I Ask what is the appeal of a given fighter? And what makes people watch a fight you talked about the idea that fighters entertain us and that's absolutely correct that they are It's this weird weird industry where you're you're Both an athlete and an entertainer and you need to be successful in both regards to become financially successful insofar as Your favorite athletes to watch at least were people who are almost like the polar opposite of who you are I've always said that most people if you look at Say a million people watch a pay per view event What percentage of those million people have a genuine? technical understanding of what's happening as they watch a fight It's tiny It's absolutely tiny the vast majority of people who watch a professional fight have almost no technical understanding of What's going on in front of them? So how do they relate to the fight? What's the only way they can? it's through emotion and So when they get a sense that these two don't like each other then they can relate to the fight But only a tiny percentage of people watching a given professional fight can relate to it on a technical level The overwhelming majority will always form an emotional attachment to the fight That's why when you see things shows that USC primetime, they never focus on tactics and the techniques of the fight they focus on the emotional elements the Preparation the view of their own family members as athletes get ready It's always an emotional pull because that's how 99 percent of the viewers Relate to the fight if I haven't think about chess, okay, if I have minimal knowledge of two world champions Coming to fight each other in it or match up against each other in a game of chess I know so little about chess tactics and I can't really form any kind of technical appreciation of what's going on on the board But if you tell me that these two chess players hate each other's guts and they've got a rivalry which goes back five years And they've said this and that about each other in public then suddenly on my ears break up and I'm like, oh, okay This sounds interesting because I just don't have the the knowledge to appreciate what's going on on the board and a chess game to be able to to appreciate the The technical nuances of what they're doing. So any Interest that I have in the chess match is going to have to come from some kind of emotional level because I'm just not qualified To make technical assessments and that's exactly how it is in the case of both grappling and mixed martial arts That's why the ones who evoke the most attention are always the ones who can form some kind of emotional appeal Conor McGregor was the all time master of this. I believe also Emotion can be used as a weapon For example, I've learned I've learned this from my favorite boxer is sugar a Leonard Sugar a Leonard. I remember I was very young So I watched his fight later when I was older, but I know that sugar a Leonard Was the best boxer of his era to me personally and I don't think nobody could beat him I think it was skill skill wise it was the best. However, when he fought in Montreal Roberto Duran Roberto Duran Made it in a way that Leonard became very emotional he wanted to stand in front of Duran and fight a different fight that that he normally does because he wanted to show that he's a man and He lost that fight, which was a mistake so by Then later on he beat Roberto Duran in quite easy, you know, the if the fair everybody remember the no mask thing but my point is Emotion can be used in a way that it can make your derail your opponent out of his game plan And I felt a lot of my opponent trying to do that with me. So that's why I never got involved that was my way to defend myself against Some kind of bullying is to put like a like a shield in front but some other guy like Gordon he expressed himself differently. Of course, there's a language barrier, but for him he's better at Given giving giving back that says he's a better counter attacker, you know that's the way you respond to to to the aggression of An emotional attack. I think everybody is different in that regards. What's interesting that John said that he doesn't Study the tactics of this game or maybe you're not interested in the tactics of this game Because it seems like this is more than just being an entertainer It seems like it could be an effective part of the match. Yeah, I just feel like whatever investment you make in that is It's going to get negligible rewards first of all, it's probably only going to pertain to one match in front of you rather than the totality of your career and Whatever gains you get out of psychological trickery and play Typically Don't last long you you've raised an excellent example with sugar rate Leonard. He did fight outside of his usual manner in that regard, but rather than me try to tell someone hey Behave like this before a fight I would have been probably more forceful between rounds with an athlete and say no No, you're fighting this fight the wrong way and that would have a much more beneficial impact on my athletes and Psychological trickery before a fight. I believe another example of Emotion that leads to failure is a Jose Aldo against Connor McGregor. I think it was it was on purpose that Connor McGregor Did this try to bait Aldo to become over aggressive to open himself because he's an excellent counter puncher puncher That's what I believe. It made a mistake There's another great one my match against cyborg 2018 no gi worlds where he didn't even try to win He just like wanted to smack me in the face the whole time cuz he was so angry I was talking shit to him before the match and It was like the finals of the absolute it was like the biggest Match of the weekend and he just didn't even try to pass my guard or do anything He just wanted to hit me in the face and I was like sick. I just won It was incredibly fresh. It's fascinating to watch like a grown man sort of lose composure Yeah Gordon one thing I've always been very impressed with you and that's No matter how heated talk gets Before a match with you when you go out to grapple. You're absolutely cold Like I've you've never gone into a match carrying anything other than just cold blooded calculation and You've always been able to separate very well the idea of words and deeds. And I think that's always been one of your One of your strongest assets a way I often measure this is when a match is over I will ask the athlete questions about the match and If they can't answer the question, what were you doing in the fourth minute? Okay What was that set up you used in in the third minute? They got you into the Kimura law if they can't answer that that tells me they were just fighting on instincts and emotion But with Gordon, it's like a logbook It's like okay in the seventh minute you went for that Judy Gatami set up from from on the left side What were you thinking? He can always give an answer. He's absolutely stone cold Speaking of emotion Speaking of emotion Gordon you will potentially if you're healthy face Andre Galvao and the ADCC coming up super fight Who is Andre Galvao for people who don't know? Can you tell the story of your beef with? The the emotional interaction with a man. Yeah, so Andre is He's considered the greatest ADCC competitor of all time multiple time black belt world champion winningest ADCC champion ever he has six six gold medals and I've been trying to compete against him Pretty much forever like since I got my black belt in 2016. I've been trying to get matches with him he was in the first DBI that I did and he ended up pulling out and that I've been trying to get matches with him and He would always say no and give one reason or another and then After the last ADCC, I was like, hey Andre said he was retiring after this after this This competition so if he wants to retire, you know, he's he's the greatest ADCC competitor of all time And I think it's great. But if he wants to compete and that's great. I was like super nice and then he started like posting like passive aggressive Instagram Captions and then we started going back and forth in the internet and there was like one point where I saw him in person when he Acknowledged he's like I understand like what you're doing like we're gonna pump this fight up and he was like totally on board but then there must have been something that happened where like it changed from like him like going along with it to being like Actually pissed and then there was that one night at flow where I went to go shake his hand I mean he flipped me off and then he followed me backstage and started to try to fight me and then I smacked him and Then he didn't want to fight anymore and then we've been going back. He's actually blocked me on Instagram now So he just won't engage no one from Atos will engage now But it's gonna be interesting how he how he shows up if he can keep it under control or not Do you think how do you explain that level of emotion? Is this fear of losing your throne? Is it or is it just a human being like with the cyborg just Just becoming emotionally unstable. Well, it might just be me I just have a way to get and get under people's skin. It's just I don't know He's he's he was he was cool for a while and then I just I don't know it just Then everyone gets like this. They're all so emotional by the time they actually step up to compete that it's pretty easy to read them They're either so emotional that they want to actually come forward and and beat me like like Tim Sprague's is a perfect example at ADCC I posted like On my story on Instagram like ten minutes before a match I said like what I'm gonna do to Tim Sprague's is gonna be criminal and he's like a very stally guy and he came He saw that and then he came out and actually tried to fight me Like he came and actually engaged my guard and I ended up submitting him So it either has that effect or it has the effect where they know I've talked so much shit leading up to the match That they're so afraid to lose that they just get super stally and they move away So either has one effect where they come forward and they want to they want to beat me beat me or they want to just They're so afraid of getting submitted that they know if they engage they're super cagey and they just back away and don't really do anything Do you think this match happens? There's a lot of variables and what I have to see how my stomach is and to if I'm actually gonna show up and compete My stomach's healthy. I doubt that Andre will actually show up to compete I've been trying to compete against him for six years and he hasn't done it So there's no reason to think he would now is it possible for you to speak to where like your estimates are about your stomach? Or is it too unclear for now still too early to tell I have this round of treatment that I'm doing until late February And I'm pretty sure that I need to do the same test They did initially to retest all my levels and then go from there So I've been feeling a little bit better. Like it's not nearly as bad as it used to be I was explaining to someone the other day like for the last four years I would be so nauseous that every time I would walk into a new room I'd have to actively locate a garbage can in case I have to throw up So I'm like one step above that right now. I'm like doing a little bit better than that So it's definitely getting a little bit better, but it's not it's not where it needs to be Can we talk about diet for just a sec because both of you George and and Gordon? Like suffered from stomach issues different kind and have arrived for now for different places so can you maybe George speak to The general question of what is the best diet for performance for training like what have you learned through your career about this? Well, I think everybody is different to me personally I implement fasting Time restricted eating and and prolonged fasting What's the longest you've done so far? The longest I've done is five days. I do it quite often I do I do four times a year. I do three to five days water fast And I liked it. It helps me with inflammation. I think it boosts the immune system and That this about the I read papers about about this and I it helps me also feel Feel good. It's kind of Tera very therapeutic to physical and mental just mental It meant mental and physical because when I eat my when I break my fast and I sit at the table with with other people It doesn't matter what I eat if we all eat the same thing. I always tell them I said my food right now tastes better than all of yours, you know, because I you know, I I have that this thing that I think I believe sometimes you need to put yourself into suffering to realize how How Pleasurable something is and I Tent Personally like diet wise I eat whatever I want Whenever I want, I don't I no longer have any problem with this but if I would have a competition coming up like Knowing that I what I know now about my body I would orient myself more towards an animal based diet That's because I've tried different things and that's the kind of diet that I believe helped me Having less inflammation and feel better in terms of performance for for for doing something physical So high protein high fat low carbs well This is is different between animal based diet and keto. I mean there is carbs. There is a lot of fruit I got a lot of the the carbs from the fruit Okay, a lot of organs organs. I Know a little bit about paleontology and in the past About you a prehistoric human and and I I know that And not not only about that. I know because I have travels a certain place in the world I want to visit the Maasai in Africa the hunter gatherer tribe and I know that when they kill an animal They go for the organs first and I know a pretty most predatory animal. They do the same thing So organs I believe is something that normally in our culture in the western part of the world We don't really eat but it's something that is very nutritious Have you been able to convince Gordon to try fasting? Talk about diets It's a different situation. I think for Gordon because he's an heavyweight. He doesn't want to lose weight You know when the heavyweight the range of like my range was like I was a welterweight and middleweight But the heavyweight it's like some of the guys that you compete can compete against their it might be 300 pounds. So if you lose weight It's a it's a big problem. You know what I mean? So and there is things that will work for me that might not works for Gordon, you know So we have to make his own experience and and I told Gordon sometime when everybody goes left You try to go right see how you feel with certain things experiment Not not a topic That's part of your optimization Optimal performance formula. Well what I used to do before my stomach issues and for those of you listening who don't know I had recurring staph infections in 2018 and I took a bunch of oral antibiotics and it just completely wiped out my stomach So I just was diagnosed. It was misdiagnosed as gastroparesis So for those of you messaging me on Instagram who are just watching Rogan asking me about my gastroparesis. That's not what I have They misdiagnosed it and I did some other tests and for four years I didn't even know what it was and then I got this I went to this doctor in California who? Diagnosed me with H. Pylori and then a fungal and a bacterial overgrowth in my small intestines. So the issues in the small intestines so what I used to do was I used to do like Seasons where I'd have a very clean season where I was competing and I would have a lower body weight And I would do like an offseason kind of like a bodybuilder where I would eat a lot more food and a little bit Dirtier food and I would have cheeseburgers and pizza at nighttime to have the extra calories But now I can't eat those foods because they upset my stomach So now I pretty much just try to eat whatever I can and maintain the weight the best I can Based on how my stomach feels. So right now it's like rice chicken eggs fish vegetables fruits and Pretty much nothing else like anything hard to digest Anything spicy red meat fast food all that's all that's hard for me Which sucks because in Texas things? Yeah barbecue And I mean this diet is really important for you John I can tell Like is it is that something you think about for athletes at all again, that's part of the I've to be honest with you I've never seen any measurable Improvement in sports performance in jiu jitsu by change of diet. I do believe that diet is important for longevity and Human beings and I do think it makes a difference, especially once you get past the age of 40 with regards longevity For older athletes. I do believe it makes some difference. But my observation is in athletes and In their youth and working up into their prime. I've seen athletes have the worst diets God bless Travis Stevens for that guy won Olympic silver medal basically on McDonald's and candy. Yeah George St. Pierre for 80% of your career. You were powered by McDonald's and coca cola To Gina Alfredo. That was my yeah, my meal of choice before a championship fight Gordon for him his youth was just five guys hamburgers Gary Tonin the same thing I've worked with Japanese judo players who smoked a pack of cigarettes a day and won Olympic gold medals I've worked with Russian wrestlers who just ate Whatever was put in front of them and their athletic performance was outstanding I've worked with other guys who did have what would be considered a very clean diet and Their performance was no better than anyone else on the mat. So I've never I've never seen someone say Okay, I changed my diet and because of that there was a measurable Improvement, you know in sports performance another way to phrase it though is I have noticed with a lot of lead athletes what they eat They begin to believe that that either is not a hindrance or it's actually good Like Travis Stevenson is an example of somebody who eats shitty Because he believes it's like it's like a power because whatever he's traveling across the world He can't rely on healthy good food to be there So I'm going to eat shitty so that that's the like my body knows how to perform under whatever skittles or whatever Everywhere's got McDonald's everywhere's got McDonald's So that makes like and they've convinced themselves and you talk about Russian athletes. A lot of them have very Strong beliefs about like this Particular food being good for them, but there's no agreement among them. Exactly. No agreement. Yeah Yeah, so believe is more important than the actual time. Yeah I'm sorry if I can after You know after a night out when you're hanging over I Think the best thing and and I'm saying this and all certain sincerity I think the best thing to eat to me was like like a cheese cheeseburgers with We call that a puts in back home because it's very fat. It's greasy. So it up so the next day When you wake up, I think you feel better because it absorbed the outcome. There you go. I'm My mom told me the same story once and then I try it was like I was hung over for some party and I woke up. I was like probably I don't know 19 or 20 I woke up and My mom's like, yeah, just have it have a cheeseburger go go eat something greasy and I did and I was like Oh, I feel kind of better now. I do not know that science the exact science behind it but I I always notice and I don't know if it's placebo, but I always notice that if I I'm if I party hard and I've been drinking a lot If I don't eat before I go into bed if I don't eat Shitty food the next day will wake up and feel worse than if I eat shitty food. I feel better I know it sounds crazy. I don't know why but it works for me Yeah, but it's also hard to do science on extreme performers so the discussions we're having is amongst the very You know that this might not apply to a general like recreational athlete, but for the elite I've just seen champions in every kind of combat sport and I've never seen a Correlation between dietary habit and performance and people under the age of 30. I do believe that diet is important for longevity. However, and For that alone it may well be worth investing time in it But with regards sports performance at least in jiu jitsu, I've never seen any significant difference Well, we had a little bit of a difference of opinion on this I think what about strength training and muscle building or at least we had a discussion about this So what do you believe is the value of? Of you know training outside of the sport so fitness Lifting heavy lifting explosive all kinds of lifting Personally for me, I believe and I've learned that from from John I used to do like To train like a bodybuilder before because I thought in my early days of competition That was the most efficient way to do things to because it was like I was watching Jean Claude Van Damme Arnold Schwarzenegger, we thought back back in the day. That was the thing That that's how we should do it, you know for to get ready for a fight But I realized later on That it's all about efficiency and some guys they don't lift at all and they're doing pretty well, so I Do cross training mostly for longevity It's mostly for a therapeutic Like a therapy. It's more therapeutic than For performance is to keep my body healthy to do a certain movement that are different than what I do every day in the gym in combat sport to keep me Healthy and and athletic so all the interesting movement stuff that you've done outside the sport that was for Therapeutic mostly therapeutic. I think it does it could Transcend to performance, but it's mostly therapeutic. I do not believe that Squatting five plates or bench bench pressing three plate will make me a better fighter I do not I believe actually it could hurt me more. It could damage me more than than benefit me so Gordon as somebody who on instagram posts A lot of pictures of you being shredded and huge What's the value of of strength? So I do like a combination John got us big into like gymnastics type movements like toes to bar and muscle ups and things like that when we were young Like toes to bar because that's like the exact motion you have to do when you're retaining guard it needs to chest So I do a lot of that stuff In combination with I do a lot of Opposite of george. I do a lot of bodybuilding workouts Where I do like a basic split like a chest to chest Triceps back and biceps day. Um, and my idea is that Weight lifting should always be a supplement to jiu jitsu. So you shouldn't be missing a jiu jitsu session to lift weights So I don't do I do probably I train jiu jitsu every day and I lift three to four times a week Um, I feel like lifting seven days a week for me is is too much and the lifting takes a lot of energy When you do like hard lifts like that, um, but my idea is if you want to get good at jiu jitsu Do jiu jitsu and if you want to be bigger and stronger lift weights and uh, and eat food and um, I I generally don't go super heavy when I lift because you start putting crazy weights then start tearing muscles and stuff Um, so I usually do moderate weights with a with a very high rep rep range like four sets of 20 with a drop set at the end to fatigue the muscles break the fibers and grow Okay, so four sets of 20 that's interesting. So that that's more for endurance and raw strength yeah, and also I think close to the competition i'll pick the intensity up and While there's no real way to get significant gains in vo2 max. I think that lifting And just getting used to mentally redlining Um gets me kind of in competition shape because a lot of times in jiu jitsu the guys i'm training with They're not on a technical level where they can Physically exhaust me to the point where I feel like i'm going to die But uh, I get most of that like when i'm wrestling because i'm not as efficient in wrestling So I get a lot more tired Um and lifting when you do like if you do like four sets of 20 Leg press to squat and you go back and forth like you're like about to die at the end And I think I feel like gets me in the mental habit of redlining before competition. But does muscle help you? It's like the actual mass of muscle Like the actual mass of muscle like this. So I think being stronger will always help in a combo will always help. Yeah To some degree. It's not going to be to a degree where It overrides efficiency, but I think that It can't help being strong or can't hurt being stronger. There's a bunch of people who believe depending on the sport that The strength can quickly become a That have detrimental effects to efficiency Yeah, like I agree that certain kind of I mean if strength is purely is like very cleanly Purely applied to the exact movements of the sport. So in judo the explosiveness you need Is very difficult to replicate in any kind of way except by doing judo. Yeah, I mean for us, uh You always have to understand there's only so much technique that can overcome a certain amount of strength Like if we all try to fight a silverback gorilla, it's gonna kill us Um, but that that being said, um, I do think that Like for example heavyweights are usually the least technical because they rely on their size and strength to beat smaller people Um, but I think that if you stay with this with the discipline of doing everything very precise And I train with a lot smaller people most of the time so I get out of the habit of using uh using my strength Um, I think if you're very precise with the way that you train I think that the the extra size and strength can help you A quick question. How would you fight a silverback gorilla? I mean, is there which animal do you think you can actually defeat that would be impressive that most people would say you can't you know, I actually I don't have an uh an answer to this I thought you were gonna say I want I want I want to say that me and john had like a four hour discussion on This one time i'm like, what would win bear or gorilla? Uh, and he went into like this whole dissertation about how like jaguars spin underneath and like berimbolo silverbacks and kill them and like rip Their rip their artery and their legs out. It was amazing. I guess. Okay, so before we talk about strength john, let me ask you what Do you think people would be surprised by if two animals faced? One of them would win and people wouldn't predict that So they would be surprised by the effectiveness of certain animal at fighting in the whether it's in the forest in the jungle So let's slow down here. Okay, so there's two animals of different species fighting And and most people would pick
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