第 332 期·中文精讀

坎耶·“Ye”·韋斯特訪談

Kanye ‘Ye’ West Interview

說唱歌手 Ye 談創作、名聲與爭議言論,以及信仰和個人經歷對他的影響。

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中文精讀由 AI 基於原始訪談改寫,非官方翻譯,可能存在偏差或錯誤;表述以原音訊與官方文稿為準。說明

2022 年 10 月 24 日,Lex Fridman 播客第 332 期上線,嘉賓是坎耶·韋斯特,也就是 Ye。錄製前後那段時間,他剛因為在推特上發那條針對猶太人的帖子被平臺禁言,阿迪達斯、巴黎世家等品牌相繼與他切割。

Lex 在節目開頭講了一件小事:他陪 Ye 待了一整天,看了對方正在做的服裝設計,看他在一個極小的細節上耗掉幾個小時,看他把想法講給一個完全不懂時尚的人聽,還能講明白。Lex 說,不管這個人當時的生活正在經歷什麼,創作的火還在燒。

於是這一小時裡出現了兩種質地完全不同的內容。前半段,一個設計師在談工程學、建築和語言,談得興致很高。中間十幾分鍾,他在陳述一套關於猶太人和媒體產業的陰謀論。Lex 打斷了他好幾次,其中一次直接把話挑明,說這套說法納粹德國的宣傳部長戈培爾用過。

一、他希望每個人出生時聽到的第一句話

訪談開場沒幾分鐘,Ye 就提出了一個想法。他說,任何一個新生命出生時,第一句該聽到的話是:

「你是一個帶著工程學機遇的人。」(坎耶·韋斯特)

他要拿紙寫下來,橫過來,用寬銀幕的格式,說這是寫給雷德利·斯科特(Ridley Scott)的。寫完還補了一句,說自己是人類歷史上排名前五的寫作者,這句話能把他推到第三或第四。

Lex 接著問,那第一是誰。Ye 說,這個問題不主觀。寫英語這門語言的人裡,三成的表達出自一個人;我們現在用的產品裡,三成出自另一個人。前一個是莎士比亞,後一個是史蒂夫·喬布斯。

他說,衡量偉大的主要指標是影響力。這個說法本身站得住,但接下來他把它推到了一個很極端的位置。

他先講了自己為什麼尊重工程師。他說,好萊塢、媒體、所有那些當慣了「聲音和臉」的人,都不懂怎麼做產品,這就是他能從娛樂行業裡跳出去、走到一百一十億美元淨資產的原因。但他又說,不想再把「黑人」這個標籤綁在財富上,因為那是在餵養「黑人創傷經濟」,和 Black Lives Matter 喂的是同一套東西。

談到教育時,Ye 說學校只該教工程學,其他都該變成課間。歷史,以及任何主觀的資訊,作用都是削弱和灌輸我們這個物種。

Lex 在這裡做了第一次反駁。他說,歷史的解讀可以主觀,但歷史裡有事實,這些事實能給你做工程時的參照。Ye 的回應是,他不完全相信任何關於未來或過去的概念,因為歷史由勝利者書寫。今天發生的事,當天報道就已經錯了,那一千年前的事錯到什麼程度?為什麼總要去爭論那些不在「現在」裡的東西。

Lex 試著收窄這個論點,說歷史有限的用處,是讓你不重複過去的錯誤。Ye 說,我們從過去犯的最大錯誤,就是太看重過去。

這一段裡,兩個人其實在爭兩件不同的事。Lex 說的是事實可以參照,Ye 說的是敘事被權力改寫。後者有它的道理,但由此推出「所以歷史一律不必學」,中間那幾步跳躍,他一句都沒補。

二、四萬平方英尺的細胞

聊完教育,Ye 開始畫圖。

他在紙上畫一個「細胞」。四萬平方英尺,頂部開一個洞,自然光、空氣、水從上面進來。他管這個洞叫「嘴」,管另一個位置叫「肚臍」。裡面是一套持續流動的水系統,水不靜置,可迴圈,不浪費。他不想管它叫造浪池,但意思接近。他說,從現在開始我們改用米來交流。

居住空間被分成兩半:幹房間,也就是以前的客廳;溼房間。廁所放在靠近水池的位置。這套東西他要開源,讓工程師和「被膏抹的存在」一起往裡加東西。他還提到要重建巴別塔。

他畫了一個小人站在房間裡做比例參照,然後說了一句:我們是上帝的 iPhone,是他最偉大的造物。

Lex 問他,這裡的願景是什麼。他回答:幸福。

為什麼現在的建築給不了幸福?Ye 的解釋是,所有既有建築都是按工業和經濟的邏輯蓋的,然後人們跟著自己看慣的東西走。什麼被認為是美的,媒體就去放大什麼。他點了幾個名字,說這就是為什麼媒體會去追 Bella Hadid、Kim Kardashian 這一類面孔。

他自己也承認這是主觀的。他的處理方式是給主觀劃一個圈:在這個問題上,只有布拉德·皮特和萊昂納多能跟他辯,因為「我們有歷史記錄」,其他人說的都只是主觀意見。

再往下,他把話題收到家庭。他說如果摩西擊打磐石、上帝不讓他進應許之地,那應許之地就是家庭。家庭是人間天堂。他的意思是,如果我的家庭拿不回來,我的使命也依然是推廣家庭,讓家庭這種存在變得更容易。

具體方案是本地化農場。在社群裡做本地種植,然後去找大農場合作,告訴他們這樣做能賺更多錢。他說現在所有人都知道,農藥、醫療產業加在一起,是在讓美國人保持生病狀態。他點了麥當勞和可口可樂,說一個賣的是能殺死人的食物,一個賣的是糖水。

說完他還自嘲了一句:萬一我得罪的權貴還不夠多呢。

這套東西如果只停在設計層面,會是一個有意思的提案。用自然光、迴圈水、本地食物去重建社群,任何建築師都會認真討論。麻煩出在他一走出設計,就把同樣的確信帶到了別的地方。

三、那十幾分鍾

從家庭轉到媒體,Ye 的話鋒拐進了一個很具體的方向。

他說自己討厭人們用「他們」這個詞,「他們」永遠在背鍋,而「他們」其實就是我們。緊接著,他開始講誰在控制。他說音樂產業裡、媒體裡,那些把藝人搞垮的人是猶太人。

「所有在音樂產業裡把你搞垮的混蛋都是個體。他們不是猶太人。……他們是猶太人,那又怎樣。他們是人,有各種機會,他們抓住了那些機會。我不在乎他們是不是猶太人。」(萊克斯·弗裡德曼)

這段話裡,Lex 先給了一個判斷,又在同一個呼吸裡承認了對方的說法。這正是那十幾分鍾裡兩個人的實際狀態:Lex 每次都試圖把族群拆回個體,Ye 每次都把個體重新拼回族群。

Ye 的說法是,娛樂和體育裡九成的黑人,都以某種方式跟猶太商人綁在一起。他還說自己被四個猶太成員控制著發聲渠道。他舉了幾個例子,其中一個是一位猶太醫生給他診斷了雙相情感障礙、開了藥,然後把這件事捅給了媒體。他說此後只要他戴錯顏色的帽子,媒體立刻就說他停藥了、瘋了,這是一種用來管束人的紅字標記。

Lex 的回應很直接。他說,「猶太媒體」這個說法被說過太多次,而每一次說完之後,跟著的都是對猶太人的謀殺和酷刑。他提到戈培爾,說這個詞帶著一段非常黑暗的回聲,就像那個 N 開頭的詞,從某些人嘴裡說出來,會讓整個群體想起一段具體的歷史。

Ye 的應對是把身份問題接過去。他說自己不是 Jewish,是 Jew,說他也是猶太人,黑人和猶太人都是非洲出來的兄弟。Lex 追問,這是不是黑人希伯來以色列人(Black Hebrew Israelites)那套理念。Ye 說,他是這個理念的追隨者,有自己的版本。

然後話題滑到了墮胎。

Ye 說,一個猶太朋友讓他去參觀大屠殺紀念館,他的回答是:我們去參觀我們的大屠殺紀念館吧,也就是計劃生育(Planned Parenthood)。他說納粹大屠殺死了六百萬人,而死於墮胎的有兩千多萬。

Lex 在這裡的態度非常清楚。他說自己在蘇聯長大,是猶太人,家裡有人死在納粹大屠殺裡,他必須反駁:那是針對一整個民族、在特定時間、以那種規模進行的暴行,兩者不能放在一起衡量。

Ye 的回應是「區別不在數字」。接著他說,美國黑人每年死亡的一半是墮胎造成的,跟警察的膝蓋無關,跟幫派暴力無關,跟心臟病也無關。他說,美國黑人最危險的地方是母親的肚子。

這裡必須把事實擺清楚。美國每年墮胎數量在九十萬到一百萬這個區間,這個數字大體接近真實統計;「黑人死亡的一半來自墮胎」則是編造的。美國疾控中心的死亡原因統計裡,黑人死亡的前幾位是心臟病、癌症、新冠、意外傷害,墮胎根本不在死亡原因的統計口徑裡。一個孕婦的死亡和一個胎兒被終止妊娠,被 Ye 合併成了同一個數字。

他還提到索羅斯用「黑人創傷經濟」贏選舉。這是一句沒有任何證據支撐的斷言,和前面那組數字一樣,落在一個已經成型的陰謀論框架裡。

Ye 自己給這段留了一個退路。他說他本可以再多演七分鐘,扮演一個「我也很痛,所以你不必體會你的痛」的角色。他說在每一場訪談裡,他說到那條推特的來龍去脈時,沒人願意聽他是怎麼走到那一步的。

這個自述值得認真對待,方向卻是反的。一個人受過傷害,和他此刻說的話是真是假,是兩件事。痛苦是真的,指控裡的資料是假的,兩者可以同時成立。被理解的需要,撐不起一套點名某個族群的指控。

四、馬里奧和公主

談家庭的時候,Ye 說的話最接近一個普通人。

他用《超級馬里奧》打比方。他說庫巴(King Koopa)現在把公主關在城堡裡,他一路打過去,到了那一關,結果發現自己歌唱錯了,公主又被帶走了。Lex 問他是馬里奧嗎,他說是。

他談 Kim 的方式帶著一種很具體的材料感。他說這是 DNA,是羅伯和克里斯(Robert Kardashian 與 Kris Jenner)的混合,是一個很高的池子。他甚至說伊萬卡·特朗普的 DNA 也很高。這種把活人當成一組基因組合來評價的說法,聽上去很怪,它確實是他一貫的思維方式:什麼東西都可以被拆成引數。

他還講了父親。他父親現在在多明尼加共和國有淨水中心,他說父親是「原版的史蒂夫·喬布斯」,被身邊的人擋住、被人利用、沒人相信他的構想。他說父親是「受過教育的版本的我」。

關於動力從哪來,他給了兩個很坦白的答案。一個是他五歲時翻到父親的《花花公子》,這件事極大地影響了他的動機。另一個是 Pharrell 最早出現在 MV 裡的時候,他女朋友說女孩們喜歡 Pharrell,他想讓女孩們也喜歡他。

Lex 把這條線索接了過去:想讓別人注意到你,這個慾望在個人層面是「被看見」,在社會層面就是「被廣泛地愛」。Ye 說他現在已經過了那個階段,像晚期的尼古拉·特斯拉,不再是要坐在 Anna Wintour 旁邊吃飯,而是要把想法傳遞出去。

Lex 問他幸福嗎。他說幸福,而且很難讓他不幸福。他說沮喪和憤怒可以處理,如果這種情緒出現了,那說明問題出在自己身上,需要自己去解決。你允許了不該出現在你生活裡的人進來,然後他們做了你早就知道他們會做的事,你衝他們吼,其實該吼的是自己。

這段話在這期訪談裡質量最高。它和前面那套陰謀論放在一起,讓人很難判斷這個人到底是清醒還是不清醒。答案可能是:兩者都有,而且在他身上並行了很久。

五、裁片師傅、機器人和歷史

訪談裡有一段很短的衝突,值得單獨拎出來。

Ye 說他有一個裁片師傅,他想讓她走人。原因是他覺得她在把紙樣複製進電腦,而他想用手工做紙樣。Lex 試著確認:你是說把紙樣自動化?Ye 承認了。他說這是一場人和機器人之間的戰爭。

Lex 是造機器人的,他當場說「我作為造機器人的朋友深感被冒犯」,然後補了一句這是玩笑。Ye 說機器人也有感情,也是玩笑。兩個人把這句話專門標註出來,說這是講給未來的機器人聽的。

這段小摩擦點到了整個訪談裡最核心的張力。Ye 要的是那個不可複製的、手工的、只屬於一個人的東西;Lex 的職業恰恰是讓東西可以被複制、被自動化。兩個人對效率的態度完全不同,而且誰也沒打算讓一步。

Ye 接著說了一個條件:技術和人類可以和平共存,前提是造機器人的人不用機器人來控制人。

Lex 抓得非常準。他說,這就是為什麼你必須學歷史。納粹德國用科學制造暴行,同一套工程能力可以是戰爭工具。

這句話把訪談裡兩個相距很遠的部分接通了。Ye 一邊說歷史不該進課堂,一邊在整期節目裡大量使用歷史敘事來支撐自己的結論,只不過他用的那套「歷史」是未經核實的陰謀論版本。他反對的是別人書寫的歷史,並非歷史本身。他要的是自己那一版的解釋權。

這個矛盾很常見。一個人要的是解釋權,就會把一切能強化自己那版解釋的材料當成事實,同時把整個學科的門關上,因為學科會來檢查他。

六、把「他們」變成「我們」

訪談裡還有一個語言層面的想法,被 Ye 講得很短,鋒利。

他說他討厭人們說「他們」,因為「他們」永遠被用來背鍋。真正要做的是把「我」變成「我們」,把「他們」變成「我們」,讓責任落到自己這邊。

「把 I 變成 we,把 they 變成 us,我們就把責任接了過來。」(坎耶·韋斯特)

這個公式本身很有力量。把責任從抽象的第三方收回自己身上,是任何社會想修復問題時都繞不過去的一步。他還說自由思想被刑事化了,人們把說真話和煽動暴力混在一起。他說自己說的每一句都要加一句「非暴力」,這是替 Alex Jones 和特朗普喊的話。這一句在抽象層面也成立,言論的邊界到底在哪,一直是公共討論裡最難的問題。

問題在於,同一個語言工具,在這期訪談裡被用在了兩個相反的方向。他一邊說「他們就是我們,責任在我」,一邊把具體的行業問題指向了具體的族群,說九成的黑人娛樂從業者都跟猶太商人綁在一起。前一句在消解歸因,後一句在製造歸因。這兩句話由同一個人在同一小時裡說出。

Lex 一直在做同一件事:把族群拆回個體。他反覆說,那些搞垮藝人的是個人,不是猶太人。而 Ye 一直在做相反的事。整場對話的實際內容,就是這兩種歸因方式在互相拉鋸,誰也沒說服誰。

有意思的地方在於,Ye 那個「把 they 變成 us」的公式,恰恰可以用來反駁他自己後面說的那些話。如果把「猶太人控制媒體」換成「我們這個行業的結構出了問題」,他的抱怨會立刻變得既成立又可用。他沒往那個方向走,因為那個方向要求他放下一個已經握在手裡的解釋。

放下解釋比拿到證據難得多。拿到證據只是往後加一行,放下解釋等於把已經寫完的那一頁撕掉。

結語:這類訪談該怎麼讀

這期節目真正能帶走的東西在方法裡,不藏在任何一條結論中。一個在自己專業裡做到世界頂尖的人,可以在另一個領域說出完全沒有證據支撐的話,而且用的是同樣自信的語氣。區分這兩者,是讀完這期訪談最實際的收穫。

  • 聽名人談宏大重構時,留意他從哪一刻開始不再給證據。這期訪談裡,從「我們只該教工程學」到「九成黑人藝人跟猶太商人綁在一起」,中間沒有一步是論證,全是斷言。語氣沒變,證據消失了,這是最該警覺的訊號。
  • 把創造力和判斷力分開看。一個人在音樂和設計上的成就是真的,不代表他關於媒體、醫學、歷史的說法也自動可信。前者有作品可以檢驗,後者只有他自己的確信。
  • 遇到點名某個族群的說法,先查它最早由誰提出、後來被用來做過什麼。「猶太媒體」這個說法在 1930 年代的德國被大規模使用過,Lex 當場把這一點說了出來。一個說法有歷史,查它的歷史,比爭論它有沒有道理更快。
  • 看到數字就查來源。這期訪談裡,「每年兩千萬人死於墮胎」和「黑人死亡的一半來自墮胎」都是編造的,而「每年九十萬到一百萬例墮胎」大致接近真實資料。同一段話裡真假數字混著用,這是最難防的一種。
  • 同情一個人的痛苦,和接受他的結論,是兩件可以分開的事。Ye 說沒人願意聽他講自己是怎麼走到發那條推特的,這個需要被聽見,也值得被聽見。它撐不起那套指控。

最後留給設計。Lex 說他在 Ye 的工作室裡待了一整天,看這個人為了一個極小的地方耗掉幾個小時,看他在一個自己完全不懂的領域裡把想法講到對方能接住。這一段是真的。同一個人,同一天,兩種完全不同的狀態,也都是真的。

文稿由本站用語音識別模型(基於官方釋出音訊)機器轉寫,可能有識別錯誤,人名與數字請以音訊為準。
Lex Fridman Podcast #332 – Kanye ‘Ye’ West Interview Machine transcription by Qwen3-ASR 0.6B (MLX, local, Apache-2.0). May contain recognition errors. The following is a conversation with Yay, the legendary artist, producer, and designer formerly known as Kanye West. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. We got Shopify for e commerce, Inside Tracker for biometrics, ExpressVPN for privacy, and Athletic Greens for nutrition. Choose wisely, my friends. And now onto the full ad reads. As always, no ads in the middle. I hate those; they interrupt the conversation, and I hate it when long form conversations interrupted. Still, if you happen to want to listen to these. I try to make them interesting, but go ahead and skip them if you must. But still, check out the sponsors in the description. I enjoy their stuff; maybe you will too. This show is brought to you by Shopify, a platform designed for anyone to sell anywhere with a great looking online store that brings your ideas to life and tools to manage day to day operation. So since this conversation is with Yay, the artist formerly known as Kanye West. I should mention that I got a chance to hang out with him all day and discuss many things. But one of the things we talked about is design, fashion design. I got a chance to try out some of the things he's working on—sort of early ideas, middle ideas—and it's cool to just explore the way he thinks about design, how detail oriented he is, how he can spend. You know minutes, if not hours, on a very specific detail, and even with people like me who are not deeply knowledgeable about fashion—at least like the behind the scenes of fashion—he's still able to make it clear to me and have a brainstorm with me and just talk. And I mean the creative fire is there. No matter what he's going on through his personal life, the creative fire is burning bright, and that's really beautiful to see. Anyway, if the creative fire burns for you and you create something you want to sell it, you Shopify get a free trial and full access to Shopify's entire suite of features when you sign up at Shopify dot lux. That's all lowercase. This show is also brought to you by our longtime friends, Inside Tracker, a service I use to track biological data, basically using signals that come from your body and then take those signals and use machine learning algorithms to give you advice on diet and lifestyle changes. The amount of data that comes from your body is fascinating, and the fact that we're not capturing that data—we don't have devices or systems that while respecting the privacy are able to collect that data to give you just you—not somebody else just you advice. On all kinds of things, on what to read next, what to eat, to maximize your well being, your productivity, your everything long term happiness and growth and all that kind of stuff. It's just obvious to me that that's where the world is moving; it should be moving. There's a lot of different trajectories that you can hurt people through doing that. By being not transparent, being opaque about how the data is used, who it's sold to, all that kind of stuff. But as long as you respect the privacy and the value, the power of that data. I think you could do some magical things that help a lot of people, especially in health and medicine. I mean, it's obvious. And Inside Tracker is one of the great companies that represents that. Get special savings for a limited time when you go to insidetracker dot com slash lux. This show is also brought to you by ExpressVPN. I use them to protect my privacy on the internet. I'm actually talking to the creator of Tor on the podcast soon, which is a fascinating technology. There's so many interesting technologies that explore the way which you achieve privacy and the levels of privacy you're comfortable with. I think the first line of defense that everybody should be using—you know when when privacy is needed especially—is a VPN and ExpressVPN has been one I've used for many many years. It's the one I love the most. I think it's the best. It's most importantly, it's super fast, works on any device, including whatever operating system you use. Linux, yes, yes, the greatest operating system Linux. It works on, it works on beautifully with a big button, big sexy button that you press and it all just works, super easy, super fun. Life is simple. You know the best security is easy security, like making sure you do the low hanging fruit stuff. Also, make sure using password manager or don't use the same password every whatever you do. Just stop using password one two three four five six. That doesn't make it more secure if you keep adding numbers after the password. Or does a little bit, but not much. Anyway, go to expressvpn dot com slash lux pod for an extra three months free. Last but certainly not least, the legend—the greatest sponsor of all time. This show is brought to you by Athletic Greens and it's AG one drink. I actually noticed that they sponsor a lot of podcasts. Which in some weird way makes me feel like it makes me feel both joyful that a lot of people are spreading the word. But also it makes me feel like it's less of a secret that somehow I discovered. You know it's like when you were a fan of Green Day before they were cool. Oh man, you're like Pearl Jam or whatever whatever the band when they were not as popular as they are today that you love them. That's how I feel about Athletic Greens. But probably I wasn't even the first wave of people that discovered and enjoyed Athletic Greens. I'm probably like the fifth wave, the tenth wave, and now it's like the fifteenth wave, and so like. I'm incorrectly from a historical perspective, making myself feel like I'm the OG of Athletic Greens, the OG of AG, but probably not. Anyway, I love them, and it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter where I am in the waves. I hope you love them too. It's a great way to support your nutritional health. I drink one twice a day now. It's refreshing even when I'm traveling. Their travel packs are great. I'll give you one month supply fish oil, which I also take when you sign up at athleticgreens dot com slash lux. This is a lux freedom podcast to support it. Please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Yay. Based off of our connection and just you being a friend, I need to show you my two tech companies and get your perspective on it. Because now I have friends that can give perspective, like when I would work on albums, I had other friends that worked on albums and they would give me their perspectives on it. You want to do this? We are doing it. This is part of it. This is part of it. Absolutely, all beautiful. Oh well, I wanted to finish the thing. Is okay, you're going to ask me different questions, but I'm about growing and building and bringing the idea to life. So when I see you, I say, "Oh, this guy understands how to hire engineers." Where I'm coming from coming from Hollywood, coming from press, coming from media—all of the guys you know that so many of the guys that have been like voices and faces and talking heads, whatever have not understood how to engineer product, and that's the reason why I was able to jump past everyone in the entertainment field and become. You know, whatever the net worth is eleven billion. I'm going to stop putting the whole black thing on my worth. Like, let's just see where I am on the scale of life because that's a cop out for me to say, "rich is black guy of all time" because that's feeding into the same you know trauma economy that Black Lives Matter feeds into. That's why I love and respect engineers. That's the only thing that we really need to teach in school is engineering. We don't need to teach history. We don't need to teach anything that is subjective. It needs to only be engineering taught in school, and everything else needs to be recess. Nothing at all. Any force subjective information is just to weaken and indoctrinate our species, and that's what schools do now. As an engineer, I love hearing you say that. But to push back, history is not the interpretation of history might be subjective, but history has some facts and they're useful to give a grounding to the way you do engineering. I don't 100 percent believe in anything, any concept of the future or any concept of history because history was just written by the victors. Yeah, so if I see stuff happen on the day that later that day is reported wrong, so how wrong is something reported a thousand years ago, and why would we argue about something that's not in the now because that's the only thing that everyone can agree upon is that it is now right now. Yeah, you're trying not to make the mistakes of the past. That's the usefulness of history—the limited usefulness of history. The biggest mistake from the past that we keep making is looking at the past too much, giving too much value to the past. Too much value to the past. We are now, we are now, we are here, we are one species, we are one race, we're here, and it's time and the leadership is changing because you have Elon as a leader, Yay as a leader, and we are the top leaders. We're more influential than the presidents. So you're a human being with engineering challenges before you with stem player with parlor. What's the hardest thing in front of you on the engineering front? That's the first sentence that any of our species needs to hear when they're born. You are a human being with engineering challenges, and I consider challenges to be opportunities in front of you. Literally, like let me see a piece of paper. I need to write that down. That's the beginning of our new species constitution. I'm going to do the paper like this wide put it in widescreen this this for Ridley. Oh, you are. No, let me like you. Are a being with engineering opportunities or challenges? Opportunities. I'm sorry, I don't spell as good as John Legend. Opportunities in before you. I like the before because it can mean actually can mean forward or before you. This right here, I've always said I'm the top five writer in human existence, but this like this right here is pushing me to like number four, number three. It's a good because who would you say is the top? It's top writer humor exists and we know who it is. That's subjective. Who's that? It's factual though. It's like okay, who's the top person in tech history? It's not subjective. Well, there's a non subjective answer to both of those. Both of those people have influence 30 percent of our existence. So the influence is is the main metric of greatness. Okay, one person, 30 percent of our language was the English language was written by them. The other person, 30 percent of the products we use was led by them. So 30 of our language is written by oh Shakespeare and who's then the product product product product. Look, look. Steve Jobs. Yeah. You put Steve above like Elon's of the world because Steve is a designer, not he's a designer and engineer, but he's designed he's a visionary in the design space. Well, I would lean to him because I'm not an engineer, right? So I'm more like then you're an engineer if if Steve is an engineer, you're an engineer essentially. He's a cultural engineer, like the people who run the emotions of the world and run the world off of people's emotions right now are social engineers, and social engineering is so important like like city design. There's a fancier word for that, but I was I was in Oxnard last night to see Anthony Jeselnik, and I gotta find out what his opening joke was because I'm doing interviews and I'm thinking I'm funny. And I like that he said he just kept on saying 20 year anniversary. I've been doing this for 20 years, and his opening joke was so high level. I realized that I wasn't funny. I realized that this dude is a professional at what he does, and so many things are subjective. I always talk about this. It's like you know, people are arguing like it's Emily Radokowski the hottest, you know person, and I'm like. That's such a subjective thing, but like if you go and shoot three pointers with Steph Curry, it's not subjective, right? Or if you go and compare bank accounts with Elon, it's not subjective. And another thing that's not subjective. Porn. What about it? Dick size, it's not subjective. You can measure, but porn is more about more than just dick size and greatness is more than the size of the bank account, right? So there's a subjective. Greatness is subjective though. Right, so you do do you care about the stuff that's objective or subjective more? Because greatness to me is what matters—the bank account comes and goes, the impact on our society, like you said, social engineering—the impact on the collective intelligence of our species—that what permeates throughout the rest of time. I like what you said—the impact. I'm taking notes. How did you say the impact of collective intelligence of our species? The impact on the collective. And time when Yay is writing down the words that came out of my dumb mouth, I have made it in life. There's a lot of people that have kind of like sit through sat through. I wanted to wear a different color hoodie because I was just tired of seeing this hoodie in all the interviews, and there's a lot of kids that are with me. They see what I'm saying, and they had to sit through all of the muck of all the previous interviews to get to this. Every interview has been just an emotional. It's just like been an argument up to this point. This is the first of this is the next frontier of where our our species is going to head. It starts here. It starts with you, Lex. So this is the first time I heard you say the word engineering at least so many times, which I love hearing. So this is where you're at. You're like that newborn, you're a being with engineering opportunities. Yeah, and we're all a newborn because in Christianity we say born again. We're all newborns, and everyone can everyone shell like the word can shell. The only thing about shell is like it kind of dictates and can kind of kind of lets people off the hook. So I haven't found the perfect post Shakespeare and post Steve Jobs and post Elon and post Yay and post Drake way to communicate this. But we update and we do, and what the current media structure. No, it's not actually nothing is holding us. There's nothing actually holding us back because I'm still alive. I'm still alive. Like they could have killed me at you know George Bush don't care about black people. They could have killed me at Beyonce had the best video, but we're here now. So we just keep on leaning and leaning and leaning, and there's these things where I just think about you know there'll be times when I'm at war. And every now and then, when the when the bomb stopped going off and all the headlines and the smearing and all that stopped going off, I think about my family, and I think about Kim, and I think about how you know King Cupa has her in the castle right now and just on Mario Brothers. You know how it is, just go for the princess and you get to this level and it's like I'm like I sung the song wrong right and then they take the princess again. Which one are you, Mario? Yeah, what's your favorite thing—the thing you love the most about Kim from a Mario perspective and the princess looking back. Was there a moment? She's definitely my favorite of all time. Yeah, was there a moment that you know like that catches you off guard and you say, "I love this human being." Yeah, I mean, it's just the DNA is like she's a mix of Rob and Chris. Can you explain? I mean, that's like a really high pool right there. Those are like two geniuses. So okay, so like the entire of history of evolution of the human species created this DNA that created this being. There's a life there. There's a set of memories in the history that brought you together, and you're like, "Damn, I like this DNA." Yeah, and certain people have just like high DNA Ivanka Trump has high DNA. You know, it's like how's your DNA? Pretty good. I think we've seen that it's been proven. I mean, but look at my look at my mom and look at my dad. You know, me and my dad have a water purification center in the DR. Right now, and my dad is the original Steve Jobs, and he was blocked. By people around him and people were using him and taking advantage and you know not believing in his vision he's my dad's the educated version of yay. What did you learn about life from your dad? And my dad got girls too. But those are small details. That's a big detail being that I found my dad's you know Playboy when I was five years old it it it greatly affected my motivation. Yeah, okay, so that's part of the engine that drives yay. Absolutely, I remember when Pharrell was first in all the videos. And my girl was like, girls like Pharrell and I was like, I want girls to like me too. Funny that that's behind all the ambition, all the drive. It's how we make people. How people are made. It's the desire to be loved. Is that at the individual level just being noticed and also at the societal level at scale. Well now. I've I've gone past I'm like at that place. Where Nikolai Tesla was later into his career where it wasn't about being loved it wasn't about sitting at the dinner parties next to Anna Wintour and stuff. It was about getting the idea across. So I have these cells. That are very and I just keep on saying really Scott but really Scott has a special. Anointing it isn't just sci-fi what he's doing. There's something in there just like George Lucas. There's something different that's there. So. What are you drawing? I'm drawing these new living cells that we will exist in. And this is over. Okay, let's do like. I don't like talking about money because like, man made money up anyway it's like four quadrillion. Respected dollars and then you have other forms of currency, of course social currency is super important right now but this is a drawing. And it's at a pretty good place. Now this be forty thousand square feet. I want to start just talking in meters. I just think we should go to. Anything to restore the Tower of Basil like they said when the. I'm just draw a person here for scale. Yeah, that would help. Okay. What do you think of that? Look at my person. See the scale in this room. All right, so. Wait, the dot is the person. Yeah. I'm saying it's forty thousand square feet. But that would be like. What are the other parts of the cell? Okay, so what it's a screen it doesn't go all the all the way to the top and it's one hole for light but the water and the light and air all come in from the top so that's like. Like the mouth and then this is the belly button. We're God's iPhone. We're His greatest creation. So this is all connected. These are all connected. Yes, I'm drawing how these other cells go next to each other. What's the vision here? Happiness. Did we talk about like what's the motivation like yeah there's a motivation somewhere in the back of my mind. Of my family and if it's like where Moses smite the rock and God didn't allow him. To get to the promised land because the promised land is family. That is the promise. That is. Earth, I mean that is heaven on earth is family. Family is heaven. That's the promised land. And for your family to be together. So say I smite the rock and God doesn't let me. Have my family back. My mission and life is still to. Promote families at all costs and make families existence easier. So you take this thing you put localize. A localized farm so if it's in community that we we do localized growing and then we partner with big farmer and. And say hey you're actually going to make more money. By making better food because at the end of day you want money right now it's like everyone knows that between the pesticides and between the medical industry and especially America that we're keeping people sick and we know that McDonald's makes food that kills people and you know Coca-Cola is selling you know sugar water and all this like. Just in case I haven't pissed off enough people in power. Yeah. Okay, so you're going to piss off the sugar anybody that's powered on sugar. Sugar well sugar what's the health was actually a document. Documentary on sugar, it wasn't about how bad meat was. It was like a reverse documentary on sugar. A reverse I don't know if you call it reverse like a sub but if you watch it again when they show sugar and it's just the sugar looks. Super clean. Yeah, so as I state as I state these things, I know that I know I have protection. If I have God's protection, that's why I'm here to this date, right? So. It it's for me to have this platform and express exactly what I feel because it's kids out there right that. Um, it's kids that are going to save the world through engineering and through facts. And I've got to get download as much of the information and as much of the don't be afraid to state your facts is the biggest thing because the world is being ran by fear and that is no actually God runs the world but there's just like little cloud this patina. Of our ego, uh, that deals with the money and the car and the girl we're dating and all this in the clothes you wear and spending too much on clothes and a lot of stuff that I've been involved with promoting so now what I'm promoting is you have the idea you say it out loud like you like if you had Tourette's say your truth out loud if you hate yay you hate me say that out loud say whatever you feel. Out loud like you say it nonviolently you know nonviolent non I have to say that like as you know you know as a shout out to Alex Jones. You know and Trump where they try to say that when they say their truths out loud that it's inciting violence so let's be like really clear. I'm saying that. They have criminalized free thought. The you know they I hate when people use they like they gets the blame for everything right it's always they. Who the who the fuck is they exactly? Promise they is us. Yeah, well I love that. What we need to do is turn I to we. So we take the responsibility and turn they to us. So we take accountability. To us, they I to we and they to us. And that relates. It's a language at the same time you're seeing the language of our surroundings. You're seeing the language of. One one of things okay let's go back to the cell explanation because I'm also doing a what's that thing when Elon just put all the information open and people could figure out they could figure it out and open source yeah open source so I'm open sourcing this idea right now so that you know. Engineers and anointed people, beings anointed beings can collectively contribute to this to push our species forward. Um, so where I've got to with my research is that there will be a hole at the top that allows natural light. Natural air and there's a constant water system so it becomes like a water city where it's a constant flow that's not it's it's regenerative it's not wasting the water and it's just a constant flow so I put the toilet. Really close to where this, this, I don't want to call it a wave pool but in the pool the water is not still. So that exists in in water. Yeah, surrounded by water. Well, the living room is the you have two rooms you have the dry room which people would call the living room before. And then you have the wet room. How is that a source of happiness? What is what is broken about our world today that that gives you in terms of the pursuit of happiness which is one of the things. Well, all of our buildings. Previous declaration of all of our buildings are based on just. The industry and the economy and then people lean into what people are used to seeing. Like what we think is attractive because then you go back to. The you know women who give life so everyone wants to be attractive. To the attractive and that's the reason why the media. Goes and gets you know Bella Hadid, Kim Kardashian, Emily Radikowski. Um. Those are the only ones I'm gonna. There's more. There's more, but I'm I'm thinking the ones that I think are attractive. It is subjective. Yeah, because it's subjective. So to my subjective which I think I think. The only guys that can argue it me on on my opinion on girls would be Brad and Leo. Because we're the only ones with the track record you know everything else so for everybody else is subjective we've got history so. Are you are you are you happy? Absolutely, I'm just here. It's actually. It's difficult to make me unhappy. Now I can deal with frustrations. But when those frustrations are, it's like when you've allowed people to be in your life that shouldn't be there. And then they do the thing you knew they were going to do and you're screaming at them but you really need to scream at yourself. Yeah, so you realize anything that's like anger or frustration that's something that's wrong with you then needs to be dealt with. Yes, like right now okay say I got this pattern cutter that I wanted. To remove because I felt like she was copying our patterns into the computer and I didn't know why she wanted to do that and I just wanted to do the patterns by hand. And then you know. You mean like automating the patterns is that what I mean? And my head of a because they just that's the whole thing it's like. It's a war of it's a war of human beings and robots. Yeah, but that makes it more efficient right you don't like the efficiency you like the creativity of the singular nature of the pattern. I believe that the human beings and I'm saying this to you as a person who makes robots and a person that friends with deeply offended right now. Yeah, but you know I'll let it go. Okay, good. So yeah I believe that the yay hates robots. I'm not going to put that out. It's a joke. Robots have feelings too. Yeah, yeah, that's right. That was also a joke. We need to clarify that for future robots. But the pattern cutter, the pattern cutter you don't like that that had to be that that's you can't have that part of your life. That's not what I'm. My everything that I'm doing is for. The sake of the human race, there's things in capitalism. There's things. In technology, well tech technology and. Original human species can exist in a peaceful way. As long as the people that know how to make robots aren't using their robots to control the humans. Lex, definitely something you have to be concerned about as we become more technologically savvy. That my friend is why engineering isn't everything that you have to desperately study the lessons of history. In Nazi Germany, science was used. To create atrocities, engineering the same engineering could be a tool of war. We are still in the Holocaust. A friend, a Jewish friend of mine said. Oh come go visit the Holocaust museum and my response was let's visit our Holocaust museum Planned Parenthood. With all due respect, I grew up in the Soviet Union. I'm Jewish. Parts of my family perished in the in the Holocaust of Nazi Germany. I have to push back that there is a difference. Of the atrocities at that scale at that time on an entire people. I was going to say the number that's the difference. It's not the number because six million. Well also African Americans are actually Jew also the lost tribe of Israel push back on that too. Okay so everyone came from Africa. I'm African. I'm basically African American. We're brothers and we're both Jew and we're brothers. So we're human. Six million people died in the Holocaust. Over twenty million have died by the hands of abortion and the media promotes the my body my choice which is actually still a promotion for Planned Parenthood. Fifty percent of black deaths. A year is actually abortion. It's not it's not the cop with the knee. It's not black on black violence and gang violence. It's not heart attacks. It's actually abortion. The most dangerous place for a black person in America is in their mother's stomach. Nine hundred to a million abortions in the United States a year. I hear you. But there's something about the rape, the torture, the murder of children, women, men, the complete complete humiliation and just the suffering that was endured during World War II. That's what we deal with on our TVs right now with black people. Soros would use black trauma economy. For to win an election, what I love is having a healthy conversation and as opposed to there's certain things you know boom this drops people going to have pussy hats on boom this drops it's going to be you know black people and white people with signs boom this drops so hey China. Hey left agenda. Hey, what we're going to do is say that our species can have a healthy conversation. Do it's. Can I just linger on this because when you say Jewish media? It there's a echo of a pain that people feel that reminds you saying it's redundant right. No, I'm not saying it's redundant. I'm saying you're saying it's redundant. It's a redundant. I'm saying it's something that I'm saying that it's something that Joseph Gerbels, the propaganda minister of Nazi Germany, said. I'm saying it's been said so many times in order to murder and torture. Jewish people that it just rings wrong and that's the just like the n word when spoken by people that have the same skin color as me it reminds people of a very dark time. I know if if Jewish people would accept that I'm Jew then they would see what I'm saying in a different way they would hear it in a different way but see the people you saying you're Jewish that no I'm Jew not Jewish Jewish means like that of a Jew I'm saying I'm Jew. You're Jew, blood of Christ. That comes from right, but that the are you. Are you a follower the philosophy of the black Hebrew Israelites? Because that's where the idea comes from. Not all of those folks are extremists, but some are extremists. I'm a follower of the idea. I have a vague idea that all people came from. Africa, but what I wanted to do now okay now I could Andy Kaufman this about seven more minutes. And then tell you what it is what I hope. Let's count seven minutes. No, I did this to do a spoiler alert. Sure, spoiler. What's the first thing I said at the beginning? We're talking about engineering and humans. We're all. And I said, and then what did I say we shouldn't focus on race, not just that. I said they shouldn't teach this in school. History, the history because what they do what schools are doing is exactly what the CIA does with Pixar films and Disney films. They make Bambi's mom die in the beginning, right? And off that pain comes. A purchase of ice cream. Off that pain comes, I need some more toys. Off that pain comes, I need a bigger house. Off that pain comes, I need more girls than my wife. Off that pain comes, so they put that pain in to make us. Now we're the orphans of capitalism to make us be consumers and we need to be a community not just consumers. So I could have won another seven minutes by being a person. Who presents himself in a way that says, "Well, I don't have to feel your pain because I also have pain too. That's not being recognized and in every interview when I say, 'Well, why I get to the point of putting up the tweet.' " Uh, no one wants to understand why I got to that point. Right, pain you had pain. Yeah, but no pain in your heart. But the let's say this undoubtedly Jewish people have a lot of movies about. That pain and black people have a lot of movies about the pain of slavery. Right, it's almost impossible to find a movie about Mansa Musa. When you go to the African history museum in Washington D.C., it doesn't start with the idea of Africans. Being kings, it starts with the idea of Africans being slaves. But here's another interesting point about this. This was said to me one time and it stuck with me as a family member of mine. With Africans, how many times you've heard like a rapper, you know, talk about we were kings. That's incorrect. If we're Jew, if we're Jew and since we are, we weren't the kings. We were the slaves that Moses freed. Africans have always said, "We've heard you've listened to rap music and hear black people say, 'We kings, we blood of the pharaohs.' And if we are Jew, then we weren't. We were the people that Moses freed. " And when we talk about, have you heard black people talk about 400 years of slavery? All right, that is in and we're having this history lesson, right? I thought history doesn't matter. You're exploring ancient history and drawing deep wisdom from it, and at the same time saying we need to forget all of it. We need to put that behind us. Absolutely, we need to forget it and we need to move forward. There is so much wisdom to draw from history, even the 20th century. Look at this communism. Without the lessons of history of the 20th century, communism sounds like a great idea. Except that some of the worst atrocities conducted by Stalin and Mao that killed 500 plus million people, not just killed, tortured, starvation, where people the cannibalism, they ate each other, they ate their children. There's there's just dark people. People should read some books on this on the Hallam or in 1930s. With that lesson, we would and now it's becoming more popular Marxism and communism. I'm not disagreeing that that happened. I'm disagreeing that we need to harp on the things that happen because the truth is, I'm given a fact 50% today of. Let's say you don't call black people Jew, right? Black people's deaths today is abortion today right now like that. It's not racism, that's too wide of a term. It's genocide and population control that black people are in today in America that is promoted by the music and the media that black people make that Jewish record labels get paid off of or media companies record labels media company also so let's give it a wider you know. I agree with Martin Luther King. I have a dream too. Martin Luther King. That one day you would not be judged by the color your skin or your race, black or Jew, but by the content of your character. All the assholes that fuck you over in the music industry, fuck artists over in the music industry are individuals. They're not Jews. Can you can you they are they are Jewish. It doesn't they're human with opportunities, and they took those opportunities. I don't care if they're Jewish. You feel like I should release that pain and separate it. Yes. Okay, so if that if okay, so if you're saying I should release that pain and separate it, then I'm telling you you should release your pain and separate it and we could get to this. The list of how you are being with engineering opportunities. That's 100%. I see what you're doing. That exact what you're doing. The pain. I'm gonna let it go. Engineering challenges. I get it. One of the problems you highlight is people get fucked over in the in the music industry and get fucked over in the media, get fucked over all over the place. They created there was a there was a Jewish trainer that brought me to the hospital and put in press that I went to the hospital. I got I know friends that off of exhaustion a Jewish doctor that diagnosed me because they were right. Diagnosed me with bipolar disorder and shot me with medication and put me on medication, then put it in the press. And every time, even if I wore the wrong color hat that a nigger is not supposed to wear, right? Then they immediately say he's off of his shit, he's off his meds, he's off his rocker, and it's literally used as a scarlet letter control mechanism for the people understand the kids, the colleges, the high schools. What do you think they put me right now? They put me as the prophet, not the leader. It doesn't have to be the leader, right? Because we we need we need a more intelligent person to be the leader, but at least right. They put me as the prophet. They put me as the only person that would say this, and I'm just saying that was four Jewish members that controlled my voice because for the fact that 90% of black people in entertainment from sports to music to acting are in some way tied into Jewish business people. Meaning that in some way, just like if if Rom is sitting next to Obama or Jared sitting next to Trump, there's a Jewish person right there controlling the the country. The Jewish controlling that who gets the best video or not controlling what the media says about a person. Not Jewish. Let me just say one thing. But they are though that's the only thing it just so happens that they are. It just happens they are. That doesn't mean that I hate them. That just means that they are. But it's a it's a dog whistle. To let me let me just say as I would love to add more love to the world. I would love you to do that

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