湯姆·布蘭茲：愛荷華摔跤

Lex Fridman (00:00:00): The following is a conversation with Tom Brands, Olympic champion and world champion in freestyle wrestling. Three-time NCAA wrestling champion at University of Iowa, and one of the greatest coaches in the history of wrestling, leading the University of Iowa Hawkeyes for 15 years, including in 2021 winning the national championships and getting a Coach of the Year award, his third. He’s known for his intensity, focus, and mental toughness, embodying both as a wrestler and coach the culture and spirit of Iowa wrestling. We recorded this conversation almost exactly three years ago after I attended the University of Iowa versus Iowa State wrestling meet in the historic Carver-Hawkeye Arena. Lex Fridman (00:00:48): Tom graciously invited me to his home where his family, a couple of friends, and me spent several hours chatting about wrestling and life. We recorded this brief podcast conversation that evening, and I wasn’t sure where, how, or whether we’ll publish it. But returning to it now three years later, I realize just how meaningful that evening was for me. And even though I was nervous, didn’t even put on my jacket, it’s a moment I would love to share with others. The mix of intensity and heartfelt kindness from Tom and his family made me want to stay in Iowa forever. Lex Fridman (00:01:26): I think I will return there soon enough because of the amazing people there, and because Iowa is still, in many ways, the heart of the indomitable spirit of American wrestling, a sport I love and to which I’m deeply grateful for humbling me early in life and helping me and many others build character through hard work. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, here’s my conversation with Tom Brands. Lex Fridman (00:02:00): What’s the best motivator for you or for your athletes? Hatred of losing or love of winning? Tom Brands (00:02:08): For me personally, it was definitely the hatred of losing. I was not a guy that was about pageantry. I was not a guy that was about the parade. When I wrestled in Atlanta I rented a three-cylinder Geo with my wife, drove home, and mowed the lawn because it hadn’t been mowed for a month. And I remember one of our neighbors driving by, and they were like, they did a double take, like, “Well, that’s– He– I thought he was in Atlanta.” Well, I was in Atlanta yesterday and just sat on the stand and got a gold medal put around my neck. That’s how I was. That doesn’t mean that it was a right approach or the wrong approach. It’s just what worked for me. Lex Fridman (00:02:43): But when you were a kid, you and Terry, you dreamed about winning that Olympic gold. Tom Brands (00:02:47): Yeah. So- Lex Fridman (00:02:48): That’s about winning then. Tom Brands (00:02:49): … there is the lure of winning. But what drives you is that you know, as you move forward, there’s just no reason that you have to settle for anything but being the best. And it would get to you to the point where that’s not gonna happen to me again. Lex Fridman (00:03:10): So what– The thing that keeps you up at night is the losses, and that’s not gonna happen to me again. That’s the thought that keeps you up at night. Tom Brands (00:03:18): That’s the thought that drives you when you’re training. That’s why you do, you know, nine ropes when Gable says, “Do three ropes and buddy pushups, and you’re out of here,” and you do nine, or you do them until you can’t do any more. And it’s a very rare ingredient. The older I get, the more rare I find it is. Lex Fridman (00:03:37): The ingredient of loss feeding, feeding that, the drive of hard training? Tom Brands (00:03:44): Maybe that because everybody’s so worried about the negative whatever and you’re putting too much pressure on yourself. So maybe that. But what I meant was it’s when a coach says, “Okay, finish with four ropes, and, you know, buddy pushups and four way neck,” you know, I would do 12 or 10. That’s rare. Lex Fridman (00:04:04): It’s no longer about what the coach says. It’s your own demons that you’re trying to- Tom Brands (00:04:08): Right, right Lex Fridman (00:04:08): … exercise out. What’s the few losses you’ve had in your life? Are all of them just melt together, or is there something that stands out in your mind? Tom Brands (00:04:18): I’m a guy that remembers my career that well. I know that I am judged on a very small portion of my life, and that’s minutes of wrestling matches. You know, a lot of, lot of winning, but there’s some losing in there, too. And, you know, people think they know you because of that, and they think they know you because they see you in a press conference. But you know, to go back to the original question, you know, I don’t know how to answer that. Lex Fridman (00:04:49): So there’s no losses that just, that eat at you still? Tom Brands (00:04:53): There’s opponents that I have learned a great deal from. I mean, my loss to John Smith in 1991 US Open was something that I learned a lot about. I learned a lot about positioning. I learned a lot about the importance of par terre. You know, in a certain kind of crazy way, I learned that I could go with the best guy in the world even though it was 14 to four. Tom Brands (00:05:20): And this is when tech falls were 15 or 12 points, so I didn’t get tech fall. And I wasn’t, that wasn’t a badge of honor for me, but I knew I could go with him because it was one-point takedowns. I scored four takedowns on him. And I learned that I had to move my feet and I learned what it meant to move your feet constantly. And there’s no break. John Smith is a very, very intense competitor that people know that now, six-time world Olympic champion, and I felt that firsthand. But I did not go in there taking a back seat, even though the score was very lopsided. Lex Fridman (00:05:57): But you knew you could stand with the best of the world. Tom Brands (00:05:59): I knew that I– This is what this is about. And you know what? You move your feet and you don’t give up a lace that’s so damn tight that it, you’re, you can’t, you know, feel your calf muscle, you know. And I gotta get ready for the consolation side of the bracket, ’cause I believe that was in the semis, you know? It, you know, you just learn from that, and it was, it was better than learning from, you know, a win over a second-ranked senior level guy when you’re a junior in college. You know, you wrestle the best on a stage. Lex Fridman (00:06:33): So if you look back, you probably spent tens of thousands of hours on the mat, spilled sweat, blood, even tears maybe, maybe a few times. So technically or philosophically, how would you do any of those hours differently? Just looking back at the tens of thousands of hours. Tom Brands (00:06:51): I would be more probably in my older age, I probably would’ve been more relaxed in my training, and probably would’ve went another cycle if I could do it over again. In ’96, I really thought that if, when Gable retired, that I would be the next guy in line, and I was wrong, and that was immature of me. And- Lex Fridman (00:07:11): In terms of the coach? Tom Brands (00:07:12): In terms of the coach, yes. And I knew that Gable was close. I mean, I didn’t know when, but it just so happens, you know, ’97 was his record-breaking year, and then he retired. But I didn’t know how close he was. But I knew that he had, you know, he went down with a bad hip injury and, and so, you know, you’re just, you’re not gonna- Lex Fridman (00:07:32): So what is- Tom Brands (00:07:33): The- Lex Fridman (00:07:33): What, what does a relaxed Tom Brands look like? You’re saying you would’ve been a little more relaxed. Tom Brands (00:07:37): More like where, you know what? I was pretty dang good and I was getting better every day, but maybe do it a little bit different, a little bit smarter, and Terry actually did that going through 2000. He had to do it, and he would’ve been in, in the, you know, in the funny farm, let alone the, you know, the physical farm, whatever you wanna say. He’d been mentally and physically beat up. But he had to learn to less is more type approach. And how it came around was, is, you know, you work hard at feeling good. You work hard in your recovery. So even when you’re not wrestling hard in that wrestling room and looking for the toughest partner- … to go, you’re still working hard in your recovery. Lex Fridman (00:08:30): In the recovery. Tom Brands (00:08:31): And massage could be that. Stretching could be that. Things like that that are more fluffy in, in- Lex Fridman (00:08:39): And that’s something you weren’t as good at, the recovery aspect of this? Tom Brands (00:08:42): Never, never, um … There, there’s not a place for it with young people because- Lex Fridman (00:08:48): Mentally Tom Brands (00:08:48): … in, in my opinion, there’s so much development to have happen. I mean, when, when you need to learn wrestling, you need to be wrestling. And as you get older your body won’t do it anymore. And so to learn wrestling, it’s more of a probably a relaxed approach. Lex Fridman (00:09:08): So if you had to choose between two athletes who would dominate competition, one who drills 100,000 reps of a specific takedown, specific technique, or one that spends that time live wrestling? Tom Brands (00:09:22): Both. It’s the same. And I liked the live wrestling. I was always wanting to live wrestle. Bring the warmup into the live wrestle, let’s go. But where I got really, really good was the repetition, and I was disciplined enough to know that the things that you hate to do in this sport are the things that make you the very best, and that is a rare ingredient as I’ve gotten older. And you spend a lot of time communicating that to younger athletes. Lex Fridman (00:09:50): So the thing, if you feel yourself hating something, that’s probably the thing you should be doing. Tom Brands (00:09:55): Yes. As a matter of fact, I had a strength coach when I was really young. He was just a freaking guy that would, he wore white, like he was almost like a nurse, nurse’s clothes. He wore all white from head to toe, and he was in Cheyenne, Wyoming, and his first name was Walt. And he taught Terry and I to hate the bar away from you on that last rep when you’re dead. And whether it’s a curl, you hate it up, and then you do the negative and you hate it down, and you hate that bench up, and you hate it. You look at the bar and you hate it away from you. Tom Brands (00:10:27): So the, you know, I learned, and that, I was young. I was young. And I remember being bored. My mom’s sister lived out there, and we were dropped off to stay out there with our cousins, and I was bored a little bit. And they always treated us really good, but this was, like, the single most bright spot in a, in a weightlifting, like enlightenment- Lex Fridman (00:10:48): Mm Tom Brands (00:10:48): … even though I lifted weights, but I never knew the psychology behind lifting weights. It’s just to look good and so you can flex and look in the mirror, or is it for performance? And this guy was about performance. Lex Fridman (00:11:01): And you said repetition. Do you mean technique? Tom Brands (00:11:04): I’m talking repetition, technique, technique, technique, drill, drill, drill, hit, hit, hit, drive, finish, hit, hit, hit, drive, finish. Lex Fridman (00:11:09): So you believe in that? You believe in that with your guys? Tom Brands (00:11:11): I believe in that wholeheartedly. Lex Fridman (00:11:12): So I mean, uh- Tom Brands (00:11:14): But I believe that you have to do it on your own. I don’t believe in the coach taking you to the promised land. Lex Fridman (00:11:22): So in the guys today or in yourself, how often do you see people that grow the belief of doing 10,000, 20,000 reps? Tom Brands (00:11:32): I think it’s rare. I think it’s very rare, and I think it’s especially rare… I mean, you can talk about that as a coach, but it’s especially rare to bring a guy to that understanding, but you never stop trying. You’re always trying to reach him. I mean, we didn’t have a good performance out there tonight, but you know what? You don’t stop communicating. And there’s a lot of programs out there that put their head down when things aren’t going their way, and then as things start going their way, then they rise with the tide. There was no difference in the demeanor of our corner, and we talk about that’s a philosophy. And so you’re reaching your guys that way. So go back to your point or your question. You know, do you believe in the, in the 10,000 reps? And yes, I do, and- Lex Fridman (00:12:19): But how do you inspire people to do that? So- Tom Brands (00:12:20): Well, you communicate… Lex Fridman (00:12:21): …by example, but communication. But I mean, that’s a… In my experience, what I’ve seen, communicating the value of repetition and drilling is a hard thing to communicate. Tom Brands (00:12:31): It’s hard, and it’s very rare to have somebody that goes in there and will do it on their own. Lex Fridman (00:12:36): Do you have young guys that step up and do that? Tom Brands (00:12:39): We do, and it’s rare. And the guys that do it on their own and have done it on their own are the guys that are in that lineup and doing well. The other thing is, is that when you talk about getting to that next level, a lot of times it’s, you know, what held you back was, “I did everything the coach asked of me and nothing more.” Lex Fridman (00:13:02): Right. Tom Brands (00:13:03): I mean, you can be a great guy for a coach as an athlete, and you did everything that coach asked, but you did nothing more. Lex Fridman (00:13:13): So you’re really looking for the guys that go way beyond what the coach says. Tom Brands (00:13:17): We don’t want guys that are looking at their watch running out of the room when practice is over. Lex Fridman (00:13:22): And- Tom Brands (00:13:22): We want guys that know what they have to get done, and they might leave early, but they’re not looking at their watch. Lex Fridman (00:13:28): Right. Tom Brands (00:13:28): They might be done early. They might be… We might be on a whole different path, and this guy just excuses himself. I’m all about that. Lex Fridman (00:13:36): There’s a- Tom Brands (00:13:37): We are not… we are not autocrats. Lex Fridman (00:13:39): There’s an eternal engine in there. Is that something you’re born with or is that something you can develop? Tom Brands (00:13:44): I think you are born with it. You develop it also, and I think that there has to be comfort, and I go back to communication- … that young people are comfortable enough to communicate that I need to take the day off. Lex Fridman (00:13:59): So what do you mean by communication? Tom Brands (00:14:01): Or I need to do something different. Lex Fridman (00:14:01): Just let… Exactly. So letting athletes be part of their own development like- Tom Brands (00:14:07): Communication to me is letting them know what they need to do to get themselves in contention to be the starting quarterback. And then to give them boosts and compliments when they- … earn them. And I don’t have time to waste with lies and cheating. And when I say cheating, I’m talking about when they cheat themselves. And so there, those become very direct conversations, and the conversation starts like this: I don’t have time to waste and neither do you, and so why are we wasting our time? And here’s what I mean by that. We’re having a conversation about, you know, your accountability. If you look in the mirror and you’re accountable, then we aren’t taking the time to go through this. We’re already on our way to solving the problem. Problem can’t be solved without that understanding. Lex Fridman (00:15:05): And that has to do with symptoms that you see in the wrestling room. There’s something where the fire’s not quite there. Tom Brands (00:15:10): That has to do with mental, emotional, spiritual, physical- … everything. Everything that you know about. You know, I had a boss, and our athletic director is a great athletic director, and he gives us everything we need to be successful. But I had a boss, his name was Fred Mims, and I didn’t think anybody could be better than him. And then all of a sudden, this Gene Taylor guy came in, and I didn’t… And then he was pretty doggone good too, and he actually, you know, was just like Fred and maybe even a little bit more current. Tom Brands (00:15:36): And then he ended up taking a job at Kansas State where he’s the athletic director now. And then this lady, Barbara Burke, comes in, and I didn’t think anybody could be better than Gene Taylor or Fred Mims. And this Barbara Burke, she’s better than both of them, and the reason why is because she’s a problem solver. She doesn’t waste time. She’s direct, and she’s a problem solver, and that’s what we need. You need problem solvers. Lex Fridman (00:16:01): So on the flip side of problems and technique and repetition, here’s a thing called toughness, mental toughness, something that maybe you or maybe even Iowa in general is a little bit known for. So how do you train mental toughness as a coach? Tom Brands (00:16:19): You train mental toughness by putting them in situations that they’re willing to go through but don’t think they can make it, and then they go through it, and then all of a sudden those barriers are down. Lex Fridman (00:16:32): Does that have to do with physical, usually exhaustion- Tom Brands (00:16:36): It has to- Lex Fridman (00:16:36): … the four reps on the ropes? You- Tom Brands (00:16:38): It has to do with that, and it has to do with understanding why we’re doing it, and sometimes understanding why we’re doing it might not come for months. But there’s blind faith, and we have a heavyweight in the room right now, this young guy that he’s like that. He doesn’t necessarily understand it. He asks a lot of questions, but he does it. And he’s been here four months now, four and a half months now, and he’s getting better every day. Lex Fridman (00:17:07): So mental toughness too is a matter of repetition. So you- that’s develop- Tom Brands (00:17:11): Mental toughness is a matter of repetition and having an open mind and being extremely accountable, and not only accountable that when you maybe when something doesn’t go your way, that you look in the mirror and own it. But accountable to the point of view that, you know what, I gotta get tough in this situation right here, right now, and this is what’s gonna make or break me. And I talked about my own career being defined by, you know, a couple of minutes on the mat, but that’s when you’re gonna be defined. That’s how you’re gonna be defined. That’s okay. So people are gonna talk about you, so you might as well have them talking about how doggone tough you are. Lex Fridman (00:17:51): What about, we live in a world now, I’ve often in my own work, I hear about this concept of work-life balance or over-training. So you’ve been one of the hardest workers ever on the mat. You’ve coached some of the hardest workers ever. Do you think it’s possible to over-train, train too much? How big of a concern is it? Tom Brands (00:18:12): Peaking and burnout are frames of mind, or burnout is a, is a, like you let things probably get to the point where you could have arrested them with a good frame of mind. But peaking is a frame of mind, and, you know, you have to know, be able to read, and that’s a lot of it. And the individual athlete also has to know that it’s a frame of mind. And so when you have a coach that’s reading that the right way, and you have an athlete that is knowing that it… when zero hour comes, that you’re gonna be ready to go and knowing that there’s light at the end of the tunnel, if you feel like you’re burning that candle at both ends, light’s coming at, to the… at the end of the tunnel. I mean, you’re good to go. Lex Fridman (00:18:55): So you think about Gable and that whole dream of being carried off the mat because you worked so hard. And again, do you think it’s possible to overtrain? So you said it’s mental. Tom Brands (00:19:07): I do think it’s possible to overtrain if you have a lot of distractions. Lex Fridman (00:19:11): So it’s- Tom Brands (00:19:11): And if you’re looking at your watch running out of the room- … then yeah, you’re gonna… and that frame of mind isn’t- … gonna lend itself to excellency. And the thing is, we have to accomplish what we need to get accomplished to get better every day. You can’t kind of accomplish what you need to accomplish, you have to accomplish it. And when you’re in that mindset, then the clock is irrelevant. There’s no place for a clock in the wrestling room. And maybe a clock that times a match, but… And maybe a clock if, you know, we’re student athletes here, but that’s why we encourage our, you know, when you schedule your classes, that you don’t have a class that comes right up to, you know, practice time. Or starts, it’s a night class and it starts at 5:30. Tom Brands (00:19:56): You know, go to get the 6:30 class or the 7:00. Lex Fridman (00:19:59): So you leave it all behind, your heart, your passion’s completely in it. There’s no clock. Tom Brands (00:20:03): And when you walk in that wrestling room, there’s no distractions. And it’s never eternal. The only thing that’s eternal is death. You know? There’s nothing… And sometimes guys come in there and they wig out. “Oh, it’s an hour and 25 minutes in. Oh. Or an hour and 45 minutes. Oh.” Lex Fridman (00:20:22): Yeah. You have to be willing to go as long as it takes. There’s no clock. Tom Brands (00:20:26): There’s no clock. Lex Fridman (00:20:28): Again, wrestlers are some of the hardest, some of the toughest people in all of sports, but weight cutting often breaks people. So what’s your thought on weight cutting, both nutrition-wise, mental-wise? How do you approach and think of it as a coach in your own career, too, as an- Tom Brands (00:20:45): It’s a lot of discipline, and it’s a lot of discipline during a very uncomfortable time period that really doesn’t last that long, but it feels like it lasts long and it’s painful. And but once you shrink your body down, and if you’re hydrated, you’ll get through it. If you’re a little hungry, but you’re eating, but you’re hydrated, once you break that sweat, your energy depletion goes away. That’s a fact. I’ve practiced that. You come in and you’re yawning, and you’re, you know, you’re starting to shrink your body down, and it’s that time of year where, “Hey, I gotta get my body shrunk down”, and you’re dehydrated, you are dead in the water. But if you’re hungry and hydrated, when you break that sweat… Lex Fridman (00:21:30): Have people gotten better with that over the years, over the past few decades? Tom Brands (00:21:33): I think that coaches’ science is better. I think that coaches communicate it. I think they always have. I think the bottom line is having the energy to implement that, and taking a guy by the hand when he doesn’t understand, and he’s new in your program, and he’s essential, and/or he’s unwilling to and not disciplined enough. Because when you take him by the hand enough, they will learn that discipline. This is an important aspect of wrestling, buddy. You know what I’m saying? So, you know, it’s not just go and show up for the match. I mean, it’s not about just making weight either. You gotta be able to make weight. That’s part of the warm-up, that’s part of the process, getting ready to wrestle. Lex Fridman (00:22:14): The whole thing. It’s a lifestyle. Yeah. Lex Fridman (00:22:16): When did you first start believing you’re going to win Olympic gold? Tom Brands (00:22:22): Uh, I don’t know. I mean, I found out… I got really addicted to wrestling really, really fast. Started late, but looking back at my life, wrestled my whole life with my twin brother. And when Terry and I would fight, it was wrestling and it was to maim. And so if you’re trying to maim me, I better be tough, ’cause if I roll over and expect you to scratch my belly when you’re trying to maim me, I will lose my head. And Tom and Terry Brands, there was no alpha male. And when it was on, it was on for real. Lex Fridman (00:22:58): What do you mean there’s no alpha male? There’s both- Tom Brands (00:23:01): There was… A lot of twins, there’s a dominant twin. Oh, a lot of them. Very few times is there a situation where you’re gonna, “I’m gonna win every time in everything”, and then he’s thinking the same exact way. And Terry used to describe it like in, when we used to get interviewed a lot about our careers like, it’d be like you grabbing a steering wheel and me grabbing a steering wheel and fighting. And that’s what it was like when you would wrestle him or fight him. And so I had that benefit. So when did I know? Well, I got addicted to wrestling really, really fast in fifth grade, and started to research it, and I don’t know why. And talked about the Olympics, and put it in my head. And remember said something about being an Olympic champion in fifth grade, and- Tom Brands (00:23:48): … somebody made fun of me, and I got in a fight in the playground. And I remember getting pulled in, getting in trouble for that. And the people that got me in trouble for that were smart enough to not rake me over the coals, but they researched or they actually found out what the fight was about. And I was distraught. I was, I was really emotional, like crying or whatever you wanna say. You don’t wanna admit that too many times, but it wasn’t because I got beat up or got my nose bloodied- Tom Brands (00:24:18): … or got punched in the face or broke my arm, or there was any pain, it was because they stomped on my dream and they doubted me. And so I fought for that. And, you know, that was a lesson. There’s gonna be a lot of doubters, and one, one thing we talk about as a staff is our staff has to be lockstep in that hallway, in our offices. And when you deviate outside of that, that is heresy. Lex Fridman (00:24:47): So everybody has to be on board, confident that you’re going to be number one in the country- Tom Brands (00:24:52): When we go forward- Lex Fridman (00:24:53): … number one in the world Tom Brands (00:24:53): … and we go put our public foot forward, there is a decision, we are unified, and there is no backbiting. Tom Brands (00:24:59): And we have great people right now, and we hadn’t had that before. We’ve had detractors in our Hawkeye Wrestling Club. We’ve had guys that would go out and get rolled up in ankle laces and not care in our club. And we got Brandon Sorensen, who got rolled up by James Green last night, but I’ll tell you what, I don’t have a problem with that. You know why? Because I know it means a lot to him. He didn’t roll over. He didn’t quit because he was on the consolation side of a bracket. And so when you have that, and then you have, you know, if there’s a disagreement, it’s behind closed doors, and then you’re moving forward. And when you have people that when they’re meeting your fans and your supporters, you know, they’re talking the right way with the right message. Tom Brands (00:25:41): And anything that’s cattywampus to that, you gotta be careful there. You gotta be careful there. Lex Fridman (00:25:47): So that in terms of affirmations, in terms of really believing as a team, as an individual, believing that you’re the best in the world, did, did you… I’m sure you had detractors. You had people that continued after fifth grade- Tom Brands (00:25:59): And that’s probably where my hatred of losing trumps my love for winning because I wanted to shove it up their rear end bad. And the thing is, is we maintain a high level, and there’s very few programs. Oklahoma State, Ohio State now, Penn State, I mean, there’s four programs that try to win a national title every year, and that’s it. And these, these, these other teams, they get up, and they, they got a good team. And they get up, and they get going. And then when, when things don’t go well, “Okay, we’re gonna do it next year,” or, “This is a down year. We’re gonna, we’re gonna get ready. We’re three years out.” Lex Fridman (00:26:38): So no matter what, you’re fighting for first place. Tom Brands (00:26:39): We do, and we haven’t won, and now you can say, “Well, we haven’t won in eight years.” Well, you’re right, we haven’t. But look at our results. They’re better, better than anybody out there, and it’s because- and besides Penn State, and it’s because of our mentality and because we have great people. Ryan Morningstar, Bobby Telford, Terry Brands, our medical team even, our strength coach, Quinn Holland, we’re all on the same page. And when I sense something, I hit it immediately. I don’t have time to waste. There will not be dissension in that hallway. Lex Fridman (00:27:09): Everybody’s in together, yeah. Lex Fridman (00:27:11): 1996, Olympic Games in Atlanta. Can you take me through the day when you’re going for the 62 kg gold? What did you eat, drink? What did you think? What was on your mind? Tom Brands (00:27:23): Oh, it really doesn’t matter. I have a routine that, you know, I had a routine as a competitor that I could run through right now. It was a lot of self-talk, very, very positive self-talk. Lex Fridman (00:27:35): Visualization? Tom Brands (00:27:36): Yes, visualization, self-talk, and that’s how I was able to relax in getting ready for matches my whole life. Learned that very early age at a camp, in a developmental camp at a young age, Terry and I did. And I can tell you what I ate, and I can tell you what I did to relax, and it doesn’t matter. What you have to do is you have to find that peace, and I just know that when I was getting ready for the finals match, I had gone back to my room. I had my relaxed material, you know, and I was able to relax because I prepared for it. Lex Fridman (00:28:18): Hopefully I’m right on this, but just looking at the insane bracket you had to go through, you had to beat, just to get to the finals, you had to beat three world champions, eventually world ch- I mean, they’ve- Tom Brands (00:28:29): And you know what? I don’t talk about that, and nobody else does either, but everybody talks about it in their own career. So now you’re making my head big. But yeah, I had a road. I had a road. You’re right. Lex Fridman (00:28:41): That’s, that is the hardest bracket I’ve seen. So I’ve talked to a lot of Olympic champions. That is the hardest bracket I’ve seen of any champion. So maybe I’m confused on this, but it seemed like a really tough day for you. Did you have, did you know the bracket ahead of time? Did you know who you faced? Tom Brands (00:28:56): You see the draw, and it’s a two-day tournament, so psychology comes into it as much as physical shape, you know, because there’s those, you gotta sleep, you know, the night before, after the weigh-in, then you gotta sleep again that next night after your semifinal match is gonna be in the morning, you know? And then you have to go back and rest ’cause your final match isn’t until whatever time it was. And so all this relaxation and all that stuff that you just talked about, that visualization and self-talk, that’s what helps. It’s your routine. You know- Lex Fridman (00:29:29): And was there any doubt, any fear, any- anything there? Tom Brands (00:29:33): The fear is the type of fear, and I just talked about this to one of my athletes today. Jack Dempsey talked about fear, and the fear of losing is what motivated him to try to take his opponent’s head off. He was a boxer. And that’s okay. So fear of competition, fear of screwing up, fear of, “Oh, I don’t feel good,” no. No, but that little fear that, you know what, there’s somebody out there that thinks that, you know what, they, they’re gonna, they’re gonna revel in my, they’re gonna, they’re gonna, they’re gonna eat it up in my misery. They’re gonna love, they’re gonna be thriving because I fail, and, and I’m not gonna let that happen. Lex Fridman (00:30:16): Your identical twin brother, Terry, you’ve been at him, like you said, your whole life, and you’re both some of the greatest wrestlers of all time. You won the gold medal. He won the bronze medal. You’ve mentioned, you know, all that really matters is the six minutes or, you know, just a few minutes, sometimes a few seconds define your whole career. So how do you think about that thin line, the tragic line at the Olympic level between winning and losing? Tom Brands (00:30:42): I think you come to peace that in the end when it’s over that you did the best you could And that’s certainly the case with Terry. He has a career credentials are better than mine internationally. You know, he won two world championships, I won one, and he won an Olympic bronze medal. And you know, I won an Olympic gold medal, but I only won one. And, and the thing is, is that’s not what’s important anyway. What’s important is, is that when it’s all over, you know, how do you look back on it? And you’re kinda like, “Well, you just said that you made sure that you weren’t gonna leave anything undone.” But you know what? There were tournaments where I did leave things undone. And so how do you come back from that? Well, Terry never came back from 2000 ’cause he retired. Tom Brands (00:31:32): Well, you know what? You duplicate and exceed when you’re communicating to these young athletes, and because of that experience, that makes Terry a better coach. Because of, you know, 1995, that makes me a better coach, you know, realizing that there are certain things that unraveled in that year that I coulda controlled looking back on it. And when you have that perspective, you can communicate. Lex Fridman (00:31:59): So what… Control. Is there… Can you control everything? How big of a role is luck in this whole thing? Tom Brands (00:32:06): Control how you react to an injury. Control that. So you can’t, you don’t have any control over it, it’s over, you know, you have whatever, and whatever happened, but relax and you learn to deal with injuries better because of that. You have that experience that you let this thing maybe get the best of you, and that’s just an example. And, you know, Terry put a lot of demons to rest with that bronze medal. Lex Fridman (00:32:35): So becoming an Olympic medalist- Tom Brands (00:32:37): Yeah, he got- Lex Fridman (00:32:37): … a few demons could relax. Tom Brands (00:32:39): Well, a little. And he will never admit that, and he probably is truthful, and I should, I’m speaking for him, but he’s truthful when he says that. But if I look at it, and bronze sucks, but if I look at it, he did put some demons to rest and I’m proud of him for it. There’s something there that is a consolation in the fact that he won the consolation medal. The consolation medal sucks, but there is a consolation that he won the consolation medal. Lex Fridman (00:33:10): That’s a tough medal to win, by the way. Yeah. But do you see the Shakespearean tragedy of it all that the line between winning and losing? So you often say that, you know, winning is everything, but it feels like, especially at the Olympic level, or you talk about NCAA finals or that tournament, you know, a split second miss move can result in a loss where you dominated all the way up to there. Tom Brands (00:33:38): That’s where your psychology comes in, and that’s where the repetition and all of the self-talk and visualization and the physical shape and everything comes together. And so that doesn’t happen. And tonight, we got beat twice, actually three times, and we outwrestled those. We lost three matches and we outwrestled the guy for six minutes and- … 30 seconds. Or one match went to overtime. And if our guys can move forward with the right perspective, I’m confident that they’ll be better. Um, I’ll tell you what, I’d take our guy over their guy any day, any day, ’cause our guys get up for every match. And now we got a lot to work on. Lex Fridman (00:34:23): Right. Tom Brands (00:34:23): We got a lot to work on. But you know what? I can say all that, and I’ll take our guy and blah, blah, blah, but what are they gonna do tonight in their meal? Lex Fridman (00:34:31): How are they gonna grow? Tom Brands (00:34:31): What are they gonna do tonight in their rest? What are they gonna do tomorrow in their recovery on their own necessarily? What are they gonna do Monday? Great wrestlers can use their imagination with a win that they’re not satisfied with and go forward as if it was a loss, but it’s still easier to go forward with that win. But they can… They don’t just, “Oh, I won, I’m fine,” and goes on. But then when they lose the exact same way that they could have lost before, then they go off the deep end, and then that’s when they’re gonna make the change in their life. And we talked to, we talked about that to our team tonight, and the mature, rare ingredient is guys that can get better even with success like it was a loss without beating themselves up. That’s complicated. Lex Fridman (00:35:25): It is. It’s a balance. Lex Fridman (00:35:27): You often talk about Iowa’s focus on creating individual champions, like Spencer Lee. Can you explain the philosophy of focusing on individuals versus the team? Tom Brands (00:35:39): I think that we need to put them both together, and the individual impacts the team. And you know, we haven’t done that since 2010, and we need to do a better job of putting 10 weight classes out there that contribute to the team, and if it’s not 10, then it’s nine. And if it’s not nine, it can’t be four, you know? And that takes a lot of pride and it takes a lot of, you know, where the coach is on top of it. And, you know, you’re not just working on the easy things, the glaring things. You’re working on everything. Lex Fridman (00:36:23): What do you mean by everything? So the v- Tom Brands (00:36:26): Well, like there’s just some, you know, there’s ideas when you’re a coach that aren’t, they’re beneath the surface and you gotta find them. And so when you’re- Lex Fridman (00:36:39): And that’s where communication comes in. Tom Brands (00:36:40): Yeah, but you’re talking about, “Yeah, we gotta move forward.” Well, what does that mean? Well, I know what that means, but how many, how many guys really know what that means in their program? You know, I think there’s so many levels of that Lex Fridman (00:36:56): You’ve said before that winning is everything. And that means people lose. Most people lose. You know, there’s really, in whatever the context, there’s only one winner. In many parts of our world today outside of wrestling, that concept, the brutal honesty of that is uncomfortable for people. So how, how do you think about this very philosophical, difficult concept of, you know, there only being one winner, that winning is everything, this kind of really painful idea? Tom Brands (00:37:31): I don’t think that that’s a bad thing to have that mentality. I mean, I think at Khoudiakov. Um, I remember a story I read about him. He comes to mind. You know Sargis, I remember when he lost in London, and I remember the look on his face, and those are some of the greatest wrestlers in the history of the sport, freestyle wrestling. And you know what? It’s what works for you. And you, you can talk about being at peace with your results and, and that the approach is and the journey is what it’s about, but… And that’s great- Tom Brands (00:38:08): … and that relaxes some champions, and that makes some champions really, really tick. But not everybody. So it’s okay. It’s okay. And if that wigs you out and that, that really makes you uptight, then go the other route. You have to find what works for you. And that takes a lot of work. If you’re lazy, forget it. Forget it. Lex Fridman (00:38:33): So you and Terry, but in general, how do you find the line between extremely physical, extreme physical wrestling and rough wrestling or angry wrestling? So to which degree has anger, whether it’s in your wrestling room these days or in your own career, entered wrestling? Do you see it as a tool that can be used in the wrestling match as a neg- Tom Brands (00:38:53): I think there’s a balance and, or not even a balance. There’s a line that you go up to, and you can’t cross it. Sportsmanship is everything. You can get dinged for points. You can get thrown out of tournaments. There’s rules with flagrant misconduct where you’re kicked out of the match, other team gets the points, and then you have to sit the next meet. So it’s very serious. The NCAA sends a message, a very serious message about sportsmanship. Lex Fridman (00:39:22): Yeah. Tom Brands (00:39:23): And so we talk about that. And the other thing with wrestling is there’s rules in wrestling. These guys that are tough guys outside of the rules, that’s what you want in your opponent. That means they’re frustrated. Lex Fridman (00:39:36): Exactly. Tom Brands (00:39:38): You gotta be a tough guy inside the rules of the sport. That’s more honorable than cold-cocking somebody and knocking them out. Lex Fridman (00:39:48): So yeah, anger doesn’t mean breaking the rules. But I mean, you know, a lot of people know you just watching you as a coach. There’s quite a bit of passion there. Tom Brands (00:39:56): Well, come and do what you’re doing tonight. I mean, break bread with me in my kitchen and see how big of a jackass I am. Lex Fridman (00:40:02): No, you’re a pretty nice guy. I can vouch for- Tom Brands (00:40:03): Well, I’m not asking for that necessarily, but thanks. I’m saying… you know what? As a coach, I mean, come… Okay, come spend a month in our program, and you’ll see really what kind of people we are. And there’s a stigma out there because they are very threatened by our program. There’s nobody else that threatens the sport of wrestling like we do, and that’s the truth. Lex Fridman (00:40:27): There’s a legend to Iowa wrestling. There’s… It’s one of the most intimidating sort of symbols. Tom Brands (00:40:32): There’s a legend to John Smith. It’s the same thing. Lex Fridman (00:40:36): But it hasn’t this- Tom Brands (00:40:36): They get up for John Smith. They get up for Oklahoma State. They get up for Penn State. My question is, and, okay, I’ll answer it this way. I’ll give you an example. In my coaching career, I coached at Virginia Tech for 22 months. We recruited the number one recruiting class. We got the administration to change 100%, 180 how they looked at wrestling. Here’s the thing, and because of how serious we were and because we weren’t idiots, we were able to do that with our administration. But my point is this: we tried to win. We tried to win, even at Virginia Tech. It wasn’t a stepping stone for me. It ended up being one quickly. And looking back on it, I was a fool to think that I’d be there for 20 years. That’s what I thought. Lex Fridman (00:41:23): But you believed you would be. I mean- Tom Brands (00:41:24): I did. Lex Fridman (00:41:25): Yeah. Tom Brands (00:41:25): I did. Lex Fridman (00:41:28): So do you remember a time that you really pushed yourself to your limits? So Gable talks about having to be carried off the mat. Have you really found that level- Tom Brands (00:41:39): I said something about that too in a book, and I think I was misquoted one time. And actually it was Gable’s quote, and I was trying to make the point that Gable’s quote was like this, and, you know, they were making it like it was my own words. I think it was the first Wrestling Tough book. But… Lex Fridman (00:41:56): It’s a good book. Tom Brands (00:41:56): … it’s a good book. But the story’s Gable’s, and I don’t know if there’s anybody that has done that besides him, and I think that’s a very rare quality. But I’ve definitely been in that nirvana level… of, you know, either is you could go all day long, and it doesn’t… You have to shoot me to stop me. Lex Fridman (00:42:22): Yeah. Tom Brands (00:42:23): But there’s a balance because you’re not going hard with and holding your breath. It’s not a ugh. It’s a relaxed… And, like, you got a guy cornered, and who’s most dangerous? Well, the guy that’s cornered, and so that’s where you relax. I’m not bum rushing him. I’m relaxed. I’m still moving, faking, very fluid. Guy falls down on his face, I run around behind him. That’s offense. You don’t have to just grunt to the leg and call that offense. Offense is an in and out, smooth, seamless. Lex Fridman (00:42:57): Now you sound like a Russian wrestler. Tom Brands (00:43:00): Yeah. Well, that’s, they’re the best. Lex Fridman (00:43:03): In a certain light, looking at the history of wrestling, wrestling is much bigger than folkstyle, freestyle, Greco. It’s one of the oldest forms of combat, period. There’s been cave drawings 15,000 years ago. Do you ever see… So you’re one of the great coaches of all time. You’re now focused on a particular rule style right now, but do you ever see wrestling as bigger than all of this, you know, as one of the pure combats between two human beings? Tom Brands (00:43:32): I do, and we’re raising $20 million for a facility to make it the best facility on the planet. We have a vision to build the best facility on planet Earth and put the best wrestlers in it, and that is bigger than wrestling. It’s for the University of Iowa, and our donors are doing it for the University of Iowa, but it is about the value of wrestling to me also. There is so much value to wrestling. Blind people don’t play football. They wrestle. Blind people don’t play basketball. I mean, maybe they do, but it’d be very difficult. They can wrestle. Wrestling is a feel sport and- Lex Fridman (00:44:15): Yeah, there’s no ball. There’s nothing. It’s just two guys or two girls, and that’s it. Tom Brands (00:44:19): That’s right, and you… I mean, I’m not gonna say you can’t because somebody’ll get ahold of this, and… I’ll get an email or a letter that says, “You said blind people can’t play baseball,” and blah, blah. I’m just saying that blind people can wrestle very effectively. Lex Fridman (00:44:33): Yes. Tom Brands (00:44:34): I’ve wrestled with my eyes shut. I mean, I was honest about it, too, and I was effective. Lex Fridman (00:44:40): So it’s- Tom Brands (00:44:41): Why was I able to be effective? Because- Lex Fridman (00:44:44): It’s feel. Tom Brands (00:44:44): … wrestling is a sport that you can overcome a lot. Your demons that you’re overcoming, they’re not limited with whether I’m blind or not. The demons that are overcoming are inside you. Lex Fridman (00:44:59): No. It’s all mind. Tom Brands (00:44:59): You have to overcome those demons from within. Lex Fridman (00:45:02): So what’s the future of Iowa wrestling look like with this facility and this momentum you have now- Tom Brands (00:45:07): It- Lex Fridman (00:45:07): … and this great group of guys you have now? Tom Brands (00:45:09): We have a good young group of guys, and you know, there is a lot of buzz in the program, and probably hasn’t been this much buzz for quite some time. And our job is to, you know, be relaxed and be focused and not get caught up in the buzz. But we have to put it together, and we have a catalyst, Spencer Lee, but he’s gonna have to, he’s gonna have to get better. And we have some other catalysts as well that are you know, gonna help us in the future. But they gotta get better. And so all this stuff about independence and accountability and, you know, being able to get better every day under duress and not knowing that you’re getting better, but you are, you know? You know what that, you know what I mean by that? Tom Brands (00:46:02): Like, the great thing about Gable was, wrestling for him was, is you were getting better, and you didn’t know you were getting better. Lex Fridman (00:46:08): Well, yeah, just like you said, grow from success, so even you, you never allow yourself to think that you’re getting good. Tom Brands (00:46:17): All of a sudden you do something in the practice room that you’ve been working on, and all of a sudden you hit it, and it’s like it was automatic. And then that, you know- Lex Fridman (00:46:25): Builds Tom Brands (00:46:25): … come, yeah, that multiplies success and… Lex Fridman (00:46:29): So if I may say so, you’re a bit of a man of the Bible. What’s, where do you go, what do you go to the Bible for? Your faith- … for strength, love, patience, wisdom? Tom Brands (00:46:41): Same things I talked about. Things that you can’t control, you turn ’em over. Lex Fridman (00:46:45): Okay. Tom Brands (00:46:45): So the biggest thing for me is I gotta turn over the things that I can’t control, turn ’em over to that power, and I’m gonna be a lot better off. And that’s the reason why I’m not in the funny farm- … ’cause very competitive to me. It’s very serious that we know that these young wrestlers come to school here to be the best that they can be and to accomplish goals that, like me when I was young, they’ve set out to accomplish. And they chose Iowa to do that, so we have to deliver, and because of that peace with God, you know, it’s pure. It’s a pure motivation, and it’s a pure platform. It’s not, it’s not doing this for my ego. We’re not corrupt people. We’re not liars and cheaters, and so often that gets in the way of a decent person. Lex Fridman (00:47:46): Yeah. First and foremost, you’re a good person, and God helps you be that. Tom Brands (00:47:51): Yeah, and we’re serious about wrestling. Lex Fridman (00:47:54): So a couple more questions. What’s the role of family in wrestling? You mentioned your wife, who I read turned you down when you asked her for her phone number, said, “It’s in the phone book.” That’s pretty smooth. Tom Brands (00:48:11): Her story of that is that she didn’t want me to have to remember the number. Lex Fridman (00:48:17): Oh, she’s just being nice at this point. Tom Brands (00:48:18): And I say, at this point, and I say, “There’s no way.” And I remember it very clearly. Like, “Hey, it’s in the phone book.” And I was like, “Okay, she’s blowing me off. That’s okay.” Lex Fridman (00:48:28): But luckily you don’t give up. Tom Brands (00:48:29): Anyway, here’s the thing with family. I mean, we, we have great people in our program. We have great parents. We have a culture of parents that, that’s part of the buzz. And this class that you see wrestling right now that’s been here a year now Lee, Mirin, Castello, Warner, and then Lugo was a transfer, and I’m forgetting somebody, and I don’t wanna forget anybody. But these parents are phenomenal, and that’s a different parental culture. So the Kemerer’s dad is the same, and so there’s a lot of good there, and that’s a big, that’s a big- A big move because how we talk to parents, we don’t talk to parents to get along with them. We talk to parents to help them understand, you know, where we’re at with their sons. Tom Brands (00:49:16): And when you can have a direct conversation with a parent who, helping his son or her son, the mom helping her son to be accountable and to own it, then you can get a lot accomplished, and that’s what we’ve been able to do. And so you’re solving problems, like I talked about earlier. That’s part of the family. The other part of the family is the coaches are like family. The other part of the family is the coaches’ significant others and wives are part of the family. And we fed, you know, we fed 40 guys and an entire coaching staff and wives and their children here at Thanksgiving. And that equals 70 people. Tom Brands (00:49:58): And it’s fun. It’s fun. So family means administration. Gary Barta, my athletic director gives us everything that we need to be successful, and he has an open mind for the sport of wrestling. And wrestling’s important in Iowa, so that’s a no-brainer. But not if you’re not a wrestling guy. But he sees we do it the right way, and so the commitment is there from him. If we were doofuses, you know, he, the commitment wouldn’t be there. Lex Fridman (00:50:29): So family is everybody’s all in. I mean, it’s from the wrestlers to the family, the significant others. Tom Brands (00:50:33): It goes back to what I said earlier about our people. Our people are great. Ryan Mordecai is great. Bobby Telford is great. Bobby Telford took over for a guy named Ben Berhow, who is great. Our medical team is great. Dr. Westerman, Dr. Wolf, Jesse Donnenwerth, our athletic trainer is great. Terry Brands is great. Mariah Stickley and Elise Owens, our managers are great. My daughter’s a manager as well. It’s great. They’re hardworking young women. Our Hawkeye Wrestling Club is where it needs to be in terms of how they help in their role, and now we have four women in there and that’s great. And, you know, at least one of their dads is super involved with us. But and so it’s… Tom Brands (00:51:26): One thing that I’ve learned is that you have to have that, and if you don’t have that, then you have to address it quickly. And those outliers, you know, let’s solve that problem. Let’s get it out in the open here. Lex Fridman (00:51:38): Right. Tom Brands (00:51:39): And if they’re, you know, if it doesn’t work out, it’s not gonna work out. Lex Fridman (00:51:42): That’s a heck of a Thanksgiving dinner. Tom Brands (00:51:45): Yeah. Next year… Well, I don’t know if it’d be legal, but- I’d have to check with our compliance and, you know, they’d have to vet you. You can come. You can come and see what it’s all about. This room is full. Lex Fridman (00:51:59): Oh, man. Well, yeah, I’ll be back next year then. Tom Brands (00:52:01): All right. Awesome. Lex Fridman (00:52:02): Last question. In 2014, I watched this video four years ago of you competing in, I believe, your first swim meet against your brother Terry. And you came out victorious. Tom Brands (00:52:19): Not really. Lex Fridman (00:52:20): Okay. So let’s- Tom Brands (00:52:21): I won the race, but- Lex Fridman (00:52:22): Did you cheat? Tom Brands (00:52:23): Here’s what happened. I had researched this thing because I’m, that’s how I am. Lex Fridman (00:52:28): You practiced. Tom Brands (00:52:29): No, I didn’t, but I researched it. In swimming, if you flinch on that starter block- … it’s a false start. You can’t twitch a finger and, because they would be doing that to get their buddy to move or the guy next to him, you know? So you have to be rock solid. Well, when we went, Terry was leaning forward as the gun was going off, so he’s moving. And so I was like, “No, no, no. False start. No, no, no, no.” And he couldn’t hear me. He was already in the water. And so he took off like a bat out of you know where- … for the end of the pool, and couldn’t hear me, and got to the end of the pool, and it was a down and back. Well, that’s a hard thing to do with a guy with no body fat. And so he burned a lot of energy. Tom Brands (00:53:10): And he come up on that end of the pool and he was like, “Where’s, where’s he at?” ‘Cause he didn’t see me. Lex Fridman (00:53:14): Huh. Tom Brands (00:53:14): And so we stopped him and then he came back and then we went another one and I beat him. But it’s the only time that, you know, I would say that he was tuckered out and that’s the reason why. And I’ll also say this, we did a time where we timed my race, the one I won, and then we timed his first down to the wall, and then we timed his, the actual race where once he hit the wall, we timed him on the way back, and he beat me. Now how’s that for being a- Lex Fridman (00:53:47): That’s pretty honest. Tom Brands (00:53:48): … honest- Lex Fridman (00:53:48): That’s pretty honest. Tom Brands (00:53:49): … accountable- … person. And I’m gonna tell you something else, getting in those shorts- … those swimming trunks- Lex Fridman (00:53:55): That’s impressive. Tom Brands (00:53:56): … they are tight. Lex Fridman (00:53:57): Yeah. So is there outside of wrestling, is there a thing that Terry got the better of you? I mean, I guess this could count as one that you’re still really bitter about that you need to avenge? Tom Brands (00:54:12): I mean, that’s past. I mean, we, he’s got an Uno title. We have Uno World Championships. He’s got an Uno title. I have yet to have one. Morningstar has two titles. That’s unprecedented. So there’s only four trophies out there, and Terry’s got one of those and I don’t have one yet. Lex Fridman (00:54:28): Yeah. Well, there’s still time. Tom, thank you so much for letting a Russian with a tie into your home. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Tom Brands. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from Marcus Aurelius. “The art of living is more like wrestling than dancing.” Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.