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第 228 期·中文精讀

RZA：武當幫、功夫、國際象棋、神、生與死

RZA: Wu-Tang Clan, Kung Fu, Chess, God, Life, and Death

武當幫核心成員談嘻哈音樂的創作、功夫電影的影響、下棋與哲學思考，以及對生死和信仰的看法。

RZA：武當幫與哲思··存檔文稿·精讀約 1.4 萬字 · 閱讀 31 分鐘
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中文精讀由 AI 基於原始訪談改寫，非官方翻譯，可能存在偏差或錯誤；表述以原音訊與官方文稿為準。說明

RZA 在"五%民族"（Five-Percent Nation）的教義裡被教導，他是至高存在（supreme being）。要成為至高存在，就得在別的存在之中也至高。他真的信了，還給自己起過一個外號叫"科學家"。

然後他母親躺在醫院病床上，空氣不再從肺裡進去，也不再從肺裡出來。他在《聖經》裡讀耶穌讓拉撒路復活。現在輪到他了。他問自己：我讓母親復活的力量在哪？

答案是沒有。他在 Lex Fridman 這期播客裡把這件往事講成了一個語言學問題。God 這個詞來自希臘語，原意是智慧、力量、美。這三樣，人可以擁有。但控制生死的權力，你只能假設它是神的屬性。所以他說，可能"神"這個詞本來就不該拿來描述那個東西，它只是一個翻譯。

"你可以成為智慧、力量和美的化身。但你不是神。你什麼也做不了。"（RZA）

那根看不見的臍帶

《The Tao of Wu》（武之道）裡有一段話，講人身上有兩根帶子，一根是臍帶，一根是乙太帶（etheric cord），連著你的靈魂、你母親的靈魂和所有其他靈魂。其中一個人走了，你會真的失去點東西，是生理上的，也是心理上的，是真的，你身體的一部分跟著死了。

Lex 問他，從母親身上學到了什麼。RZA 說，他從母親那裡學到了生命本身。家裡 11 個孩子，他看著母親把一切獻出去，獻給了他們，也就是獻給了生命。

但真正讓他寫這段話的，是他年輕時那股傲氣。他懂自己，別人叫他科學家，他信了那些教義。母親一走，那套"我是神"的自信碎了一個角。他把這個叫做覺悟：真正的神不是他，能決定生死的東西不是他。

他每天為母親祈禱。祈禱的內容裡，除了感謝，他念叨最多的一句是：希望她的名字被這個家族記住。他不確定世界會不會記住，但他做了一件事，在電影《Love Beats Rhymes》裡，他把裡面那所學校以母親的名字命名，等於把她留在物理空間裡一個角落。

失去母親的痛，他說，是沒法描述的。只有同樣失去過母親的人才能對上一個眼神，點個頭，什麼都不用說。

但同一場死亡還給了他一樣東西，一種奇怪的喜悅。他意識到自己的必死性，也意識到自己的不朽性，這兩件事同時砸下來，反而讓他鬆了口氣。之前那層"我身子骨不會死"的幻覺被戳破了。他說，那一刻他理解了。

詹姆斯·布朗還在，只要你哼他

RZA 把身體和不死的那部分分開看。坐在你面前的這具身體會死，但靈魂，他判它不死。

他舉了個例子。他可以現在就哼一段詹姆斯·布朗（James Brown）的《Please, Please, Please》，但詹姆斯·布朗本人不會走進這個房間來唱。所以從某個角度說，詹姆斯·布朗還在這裡；從另一個角度說，他已經走了。

Lex 順著說，他的靈魂活在你這兒，活在你唱它、聽它、慶祝它的時候。文明能延續下去，靠的就是人類一直願意去慶祝那些偉大的頭腦和過去的創作。

RZA 加了一句。他說靈魂不死，不只是因為有人唱它。你去看火在哪，火在空氣裡，你只要點一下火星。它一直在那兒。

Lex 問他怕不怕死。他說不怕。但也不想看見死。他說他這輩子只知道活著是什麼樣，他愛活著。他讀過很多古書，其中一位老師叫菩提達摩（Bodhidharma）。有人問達摩，你怕死嗎，你死後會變成什麼。達摩什麼都答得上來，可這個問題上他說：我不知道。因為他還沒死過。

Lex 說，對有些人來說，不知道門後面是什麼，這件事本身就足夠恐怖。RZA 說小時候確實這樣，恐懼滲進他的生活，他看恐怖片，相信各種超自然的事，還覺得自己看見過東西。到底是自己腦子投射出來的，還是真在那兒，他到現在也說不清。但他的結論是，生命很美，我們擁有它，那就用到最後一滴。

下雨了就淋溼

昆西·瓊斯（Quincy Jones）跟 RZA 和 ODB 說過一句話：下雨了就淋溼（when it rains, get wet）。

RZA 解釋這句的意思。那時候他比較保守，有錢，有女人想要他，想要的東西大概都能拿到手。昆西那話是在說：享受啊，雨正下在你身上，別撐傘，別回屋，淋溼，把這一刻過完。

當時他沒全聽進去。幾年後聽進去了一些。但他說自己可能也理解偏了，把昆西示範的"淋溼"當成了自己該做的那一種"淋溼"，兩回事。現在他說，他正用自己的方式在淋溼。

這一半要謝謝他母親，一半要謝謝他妻子。他的第二任妻子塔拉尼（Talani），是在母親去世之後認識的。起初只是朋友，他覺得她好看，就交了個朋友。幾年後關係變了，那正好是他打離婚的中間。他問自己，是撒開了瘋玩，還是收住。他瘋了一點點，沒太瘋。他叔叔見到塔拉尼的時候說過一句話：她讓我想起你母親。叔叔認識他母親，比他自己認識母親還早。後來他們交往、訂婚，然後塔拉尼的母親也走了。兩個人現在共有一個眼神，那種失去過母親的人之間才有的眼神。他們互相把對方重新搭了起來。

他說，如果沒有家裡那份安全感、平靜和和諧，他不會像現在這樣說這麼多話，也不會坐在這裡聊天。

昆西·瓊斯和昆汀

講昆西·瓊斯，RZA 用的詞是"偉大的頭腦，偉大的藝術家，一塊真正的寶藏"。昆西經歷過那樣的年代：他去演出的地方，他不能從正門走進去，不能在同一個館子裡吃飯。到後來，他擁有的地方比那些場子還大。

RZA 說，跟昆西待一個小時，你能拿到一輩子的資訊。他被福氣照顧，能跟昆西待上好幾個小時、好幾天。他說昆西身上有個特別的地方，就是永遠願意分享，分享經驗，分享知識。他甚至願意把自己的房子給一個他覺得需要的人住，幫那人重新站起來。

昆西五十來歲的時候，做了一張音樂史上最偉大的專輯之一，也是最暢銷的專輯之一，《Thriller》。不只是評論界認可，商業上也偉大。RZA 說，那大概是和他現在差不多的年紀。也許他也在等一個好運的年份。

講昆汀·塔倫蒂諾（Quentin Tarantino），一個詞：百科全書。RZA 說昆汀分享知識的方式很獨特。有那麼一段時間，兩個人特別鐵，他去昆汀家裡看電影，聊藝術聊人生，一聊就是很久。他說，在自己的電影生涯裡，他把昆汀當成教父。

2001 到 2002 年，他做了件很放低身段的事：他請昆汀當自己的導師。那時候他已經是個多白金藝術家了，是個"巫師"了，但他還是彎腰去請。因為他從昆汀身上看到一種腦子裡的手藝，跟自己有共鳴，而自己在這行只是新手。他在音樂裡拍電影，在 MV 裡拍電影，昆汀是這門手藝的大師，也是這行的活辭典。電影史，從演員、導演、攝影師一直到服裝設計師，昆汀腦子裡可能存著五十位最偉大的服裝設計師。

Lex 說，你倆記憶都好，他很想當那場對話牆上的一隻蒼蠅。RZA 說，兩人最初的關係就是從互相較勁開始的，比電影知識，比功夫片知識。他說幸虧是功夫片這個賽道，換別的他一點機會都沒有，至少這一門他還能撐住。但昆汀比他大，昆汀能回到 1972 年，那一年他一部都沒看過。

洪拳的五種動物

Lex 問他，從功夫片裡能吸出什麼智慧。RZA 說，裡面的智慧是無窮的，他的吸法是把招式拆開，放到自己的生活裡看。

比如《Master Killer》（《少林三十六房》），主角打的那套拳叫洪家（Hung Ga）。這部電影的導演本身就是洪家拳的高手，師承能一路追到少林寺，他一直想讓自己的電影保持純度，把洪家拳帶給世界。昆汀最愛的那部《獨臂拳王大破血滴子》（Master of the Flying Guillotine），動作指導正是《少林三十六房》的導演。獨臂拳王裡的一些東西，是這個動作指導還在嬰兒期的嘗試，後來他才用到自己的電影裡。兩代人之間有這種奇妙的共生關係：昆汀當年看這部片，可能就是 RZA 看《少林三十六房》時的年紀；等昆汀當上導演，RZA 長到昆汀當年的歲數，又看到了他的作品。

洪家拳的核心是五形：虎、鶴、豹、蛇、龍。有人拆到七形，有人拆到十二形，但洪家死守五形。人怎麼模仿一隻虎？看虎的拳頭，撲你之前它先蜷起來。人怎麼模仿一條蛇？不一定要在招裡，是蛇的那個意識。是鶴的那份輕靈。某一刻一拳打過去不管用，也許你就得用鶴嘴去戳對方的眼睛。

"被攻擊的時候，或者你自己進攻的時候，腦子能切到那種動物的本能，這件事不需要套路。這是心法。"（RZA）

他說一開始他也在琢磨怎麼把手練硬，練到能在磚上砸一千下、磨出繭、長出肌肉，不然打人不疼。但真正的東西是：真打起來，我可以"虎"起來，撲的時候撲，該像白鶴一樣飛走就飛走。是那個心態。

情緒是波還是粒子

Lex 聊天時把話題帶到機器人。他家裡有 Roomba 掃地機器人，他給它調過不同的音效，其中一個音效是輕輕哀號，像在疼。你踢它一下，或者它自己撞上什麼，它發出那個聲音，你立刻會對它產生一點感情。

Lex 問的是另一個問題：機器對機器之間，能不能也有一套情緒演算法？RZA 反問：情緒是波還是粒子？像光那樣。

RZA 說，情緒只是某個更大的東西投下的影子，那個更大的東西是意識。他不確定情緒是波還是粒子。Lex 說他倒想過一件事：意識或者情緒會不會是一種物理定律，是宇宙裡足夠底層的東西。

RZA 唸了自己的一段歌詞，從一部關於地球的紀錄片來的，歌名叫《The World of Confusion》。大意是：在一個混亂的世界裡，幻覺太多，我們從星球身上抽血，它現在需要輸血；財富、健康、自我的重新分配，還有對心理健康更深的理解；醫生開了物理的方子，精神科醫生想蓋更大的機構，可兩個人都沒有解，沒有方程式，沒有一臺能稱出仇恨振動重量的儀器。

"仇恨有多重？比愛更重嗎？比彈頭裡的鉛更重嗎？只要十毫克，就能殺死一個人。"（RZA，歌詞）

Lex 說，我們可以測量它，只是現在還在黑暗時代。RZA 說他覺得能測，有些東西是物理的，把所有人這麼近地連在一起。我們總覺得自己是各自獨立的個體，在這個世界上走來走去，可底下有更深的連線。Lex 補了一句：人類科學一百年才出了愛因斯坦那幾項理論物理的突破，我們對人類心理幾乎一無所知，對人類生物學的瞭解也很淺，全都在摸索。

RZA 順著提出另一個想法。他說量子這回事：只要你說存在不確定性，並且讓我相信存在不確定性，那不確定性就存在。可如果它本來不存在呢？他看量子計算機，會給你 0，給你 1，把兩個東西變成八個東西，相乘幾次，就像棋盤的走法，幾百萬種。但真正被引進來的是那個不確定性：你知道這一手會被走，因為走過一千遍了，可遲早會有一個意外進來，讓你走下一手。

Lex 說，人類就是不喜歡一切都完全可預測，包括下棋也一樣。棋是可以完全求解的，沒有任何不確定性。RZA 說他同意，鮑比·菲舍爾（Bobby Fischer）在一本書裡說過一句話他很喜歡：每一局棋都是和棋。唯一有人贏的原因，是另一方犯了錯。沒有比這更好的說法了。

棋盤，幾百年的戰爭史

Lex 問他，棋對你是什麼。他說，那是最刺激他的一種消磨時間的方式，同時也刺激他的音樂，刺激他關於人生的想法。有些娛樂不一樣，比如棒球也是一種消磨。看棒球，大多數人不會有這麼強的腦力啟用、這麼多計算、這麼多關於自己的思考。棋不一樣，哪怕只是消遣，它給他的刺激是實時的。

還有一層，棋是穿過幾百年連起來的。歷史上一些最有趣的人下過這盤棋，把自己的掙扎投到棋盤上，然後想過辦法。國家之間也在棋盤上打過仗。蘇聯對美國，菲舍爾代表美國，斯帕斯基代表蘇聯。

《美國黑幫》和八隻眼睛

RZA 演過《美國黑幫》（American Gangster），和丹澤爾·華盛頓（Denzel Washington）同臺。他說那部片對他是祝福，也是寶藏，哪怕他沒參演，片子本身也夠好。他最愛的部分是過程。因為他是參與者，才看得到這個層級的教育。

他在片場看雷德利·斯科特（Ridley Scott）拍戲。這是他自己的大膽判斷：雷德利可能是當世最好的導演。看他拍戲，讓 RZA 理解了一個原則，他自己給它起了個名字叫"多重視野"（multi-vision），能同時看見八件事。他聽說過拍《羅賓漢》的時候雷德利用了 18 臺機位。拍《美國黑幫》時他親眼見到：雷德利走到監視器那邊，跟回放的人一起，把所有機位最後收到的畫面拉到一個點上，每一個畫面裡的東西都不一樣，而他心裡早就有數，知道自己拍到沒有。機位是他放的，他在自己腦子裡先看見了。RZA 把這一點看在眼裡，然後很謙卑地去問雷德利。雷德利很大方，跟他聊，確認了他看到的東西。現在他自己拍電影，能用上這一套。目前同時能看三四件事，八件還不行，但他說他會到那一天的。

他現場演示了一下。就這個房間，Lex 和幾個人坐著，怎麼把它拍得有戲劇性？鏡頭一動，從一個人的手錶、腕帶上切過去。因為那上面還有另一個故事。他死了嗎？我們不知道。

剪輯也是他上的一課。他念不出剪輯師的名字，實際是彼得羅·斯卡利亞（Pietro Scalia）。他形容好的剪輯師有一種"破譯力"，像破譯英格瑪密碼。一部劇情片至少一百萬英尺膠片，還有多頭機位，A 機、B 機不算，說不定有六個機位，得一個個倒回去處理。好的剪輯師能讓故事重新講一遍。《美國黑幫》裡，那幾個兄弟開起各自的生意，一個在布朗克斯，一分鐘之內他把每個街區都抓了一遍，你就知道接下來會發生什麼，整條崛起線你都看過了。相比之下，《疤面煞星》用兩分鐘講一個人的崛起：去銀行、存錢、買獅子，娶老婆，最後坐在有大電視牆的大房子裡。可《美國黑幫》要同時講五個兄弟，這些全在剪輯裡，也全在導演心裡。

在文明的金字塔上添一塊磚

Lex 說 RZA 常常像個老靈魂，看世界像自己活了 200 年。他的創造力讓他能很快看見一件還沒做完的作品最後的樣子，別人還沒跟上。Lex 問他，RZA 的創造力到底從哪來。

他說不知道。唯一能說的是，它似乎是無窮的。這一點他自己想起來都覺得奇怪。他被 GZA 教了很多東西，數學、嘻哈本身、霹靂舞。別的表哥教他塗鴉，還有表哥教他打碟。他意識到自己有很多個引路人，但 GZA 是最早最大的一個。不是說 GZA 不創作，是 GZA 的創作寬度沒到這麼寬。教他打碟的表哥沒從打碟走到做 beat。教他樂器的表哥沒離開放克和搖滾。而他現在是個管絃樂作曲家。

所以他乾脆接受自己就是個藝術家，一個創作者，就這麼定性。至於來自哪，他真要給個答案，就說來自生活本身。

講到疫情期間他寫得更多，Lex 問他是不是覺得自己在接收別處發來的訊號，或者是苦功，或者只是等待。RZA 說都不是，他有一句歌詞：對他而言，當 MC 就像呼吸一樣簡單。就像呼吸。

他講了一件讀到的科學事實。大氣裡的原子看上去無窮多，可它們佔據的空間不是無窮的。所以你這一生呼吸過的原子裡，至少有 100 萬個是伽利略當年也呼吸過的。Lex 說他也聽過這個說法，很準。RZA 接下去說，你身體裡大部分原子來自恆星，恆星炸開，所以我們從根本上就是連在一起的。組成身體的原子來了又走，身體裡的細胞也死了又生，我們從不留意這些，它們就那樣穿過你。

Lex 說，這讓他覺得自己不是一個個體，只是某個更大有機體的一根手指。RZA 順著說，你現在喝那杯咖啡，你要消化它，那些原子總要出去，走腸道也好，走泌尿也好，或者你出汗、打噴嚏，它們總歸要出去。你怎麼消化你吸進去的伽利略？他說藝術家乾的就是這件事。有的人吃什麼都不胖，有的人吃一點就長肉，有人長的是肌肉。藝術家吸進去，把它翻譯成藝術。第一步是得聽見。大多數人聽不見，東西收到過，但出不來，頻率不對。

他做了一個不太嚴謹的估算。把世界上真正算藝術家的挑出來，可能只有 100 萬個，甚至更少，攤到全體人口裡就是桌子邊上那一小塊。可就是那一小塊在啟發另外一大塊。反過來說，也有可能所有的混亂都在滋養那一小塊，藝術家只是在旁邊看著這整個混亂。所以美到底是從藝術家來的，還是從混亂來的，他也說不清。逼他給個答案，他說：生活。

困惑是禮物

《The Tao of Wu》裡有一段話 Lex 很喜歡：困惑是上帝的禮物。你最渴望答案的時候，坐下來，等。資訊會變清楚。困惑是在給你引路。學會抽離，成為自己生活的製片人。

Lex 拿這個問 RZA：今天一個高中生或大學生，想把自己活成一個值得驕傲的作品，你會給他什麼建議。RZA 的回答很直接，先讀《The Tao of Wu》，再讀《Wu-Tang Manual》。他承認這不合常規，他平時總是告訴人先學知識，再學智慧，但這次他讓人先跳過，先到智慧那兒去，然後回頭。他打了個比方：他兒子這一代人得先看《星球大戰》第二輪的片子，再回頭看老片，這一代人先看《原力覺醒》，再往回補。

Lex 追問，沒幾個人的人生能像你這樣。你在這個世界上做出了一些最了不起的作品。如果那桌子邊上的 100 萬人裡有人想成為其中一個，怎麼能做到。RZA 說，好的地方在於，做過的人留下了腳印。最好的辦法是研究那些腳印，研究那些已經做到你想做的事的人。文明是在前人之上疊出來的，美國國徽上是金字塔加一隻眼睛，因為前人先做了。前人可能因為某個原因失敗了，或者出了什麼事，可那個例子足夠強，能把我們帶得更遠。

他說馬斯克坐在這裡，想把之前的火箭建造者做得更好，他不是第一個造火箭的，也不是第一個想電動車的人，他做得更好，往前推了一步，等後人接過去，也許就能做出那輛飛車。這就是好的地方。他提到一句他很喜歡的引文，大意是：去天堂最快的路，是花時間研究那些有智慧的人。活著的有智慧的，以及活在你之前的。研究大師。

真主生出了神

Lex 問 RZA，神對你是什麼。RZA 說這個問題讓他得先做一個區分。

他說他最近聽到一位拉比和一位歷史學家辯論，慢慢回溯詞源，回到很古的時候，回到"神"這個意思最早的那個詞。在那個辯論裡，他們念出的詞是真主（Allah）。從那裡演化出 Elohim。RZA 說，他早就在心裡認了，這個宇宙之父的專名叫真主。真主裡有一切。而他不認為"神"和真主是同一個東西。他認為真主生出了神。

他往下拆。真主這個詞 A-L-L-A-H，按數字學算，A 是 1，L 是 12，一路加到最後的數字，會得 7，而 7 會把你帶回字母 G。所以真主生神，神不生真主。

那這個真主，跟你在醫院病床上要呼叫的那位"神諭"怎麼連上。RZA 說他那段歌詞裡的意思是：我們總在另外找一個神諭，找別人、找別的東西來幫忙，可到最後沒人真能幫你。

他說他讀了很多書。他讀過最強的書是《古蘭經》。比《聖經》強，比量子物理強，比《薄伽梵歌》強。他讀到一位英國學者說，《古蘭經》是史上最蠢的書，根本說不通。他讀了那句話，卻說：我明白他為什麼這麼說，我完全明白。為什麼，因為它的文字結構很古怪。可這就有點像有些人的歌，你得等很多年，才真的明白它唱的是什麼。他提過，戴夫·查普爾（Dave Chappelle）的一個笑話在他腦子裡也是很多年之後才炸開的。

對真主，他說自己是謙卑的。他說他對"神"一度不謙卑，因為那是個可以定義的東西，這是個問題。他覺得很多人嘴上說神，心裡想說的是真主，可實際上不是一回事，因為你在它旁邊放了別的東西，所以才有那麼多神。真主旁邊沒有別的東西，真主是一。

"別人跟你打招呼，說 peace，God，我接受。他是在說，我是個有智慧、有力量、有美的人，或者類似的東西。武當幫被稱為說唱界的神，裡面有智慧，有力量，有美。"（RZA）

他還說過一個詞的拆解。武當這個名字，最早是 Witty, Unpredictable, Talent And Natural Game，才華、不可預測、自然遊戲，自然是指自然的文字遊戲。後來它變成 Wisdom of the Universe, Truth of Allah for a Nation of God，宇宙的智慧，真主的真理，為神的國度。取"神的國度"（Nation of God）後兩個字母，就是智慧、力量、美。

他順手講了一段政治，又說不算政治。美國自稱世界上最偉大的國家。那偉大在哪：智慧、力量，還是美？他說最簡單的答案你知道，是力量，有核彈，只有美俄之間能算個平手。可智慧呢？有人會說我們有技術。那美呢？當人民中間有那麼多苦難，美在哪。不完整。

布魯斯·李可能是位小先知

談布魯斯·李，RZA 用了一個不常用的說法。他說自己不敢貿然，但他願意說布魯斯·李是位"小先知"（minor prophet）。這個概念是從《古蘭經》來的：我們先知被派往每一個民族、每一個村莊，不讓任何人完全聽不到那個道理，不然就不公平。所以如果一條法則足夠慈悲，一個聾人也得以某種方式得到一個徵兆。摩西看見燃燒的灌木，也許現場沒有別人能說話，他只能跟那叢灌木說。那也可能是灌木這一頭在說。RZA 說重點是，那些都是小先知。在他眼裡布魯斯·李是其中一位，因為他透過武術帶給世界的是一整套思維正規化的移動。某些存在被生下來的時候，就會發生這種事。

而且布魯斯·李不只是在身體層面做這件事，他同時還在講哲學，同時還在追自己最好的版本。三件事一起在做。RZA 研究過他好幾輪。第一輪，他看的其實不是布魯斯·李本人，是《青蜂俠》的片段剪在一起，然後是《黑武士》（Black Samurai），接著是一些別的功夫片，像《Fearless Fighters》，裡面有個女人揹著小孩飛過湖面。布魯斯·李不飛。他後來看《五毒》《叉手》《少林三十六房》，這些電影很美，但全都是"拔高"過的，拔到你能做的範圍之外，是超現實，玩的是一個不屬於這個世界的世界。布魯斯·李玩的是這個世界。所以 RZA 第一次看布魯斯·李的時候，其實覺得他沒這些演員厲害，因為他不會飛。等他看了《唐山大兄》，尤其是真的《精武門》，他看到了不一樣的東西，他就上心了。再到《龍爭虎鬥》，那就完整了。

他的第一張專輯叫《Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers)》，把《龍爭虎鬥》（Enter the Dragon）和《少林三十六房》拼在一起，因為這兩部是兩座巔峰。少年時的他研究布魯斯·李的身體，青年時他再看，驚歎他真的是在動；後來再看，驚歎他在說什麼；再後來看，看他到底代表什麼。

Lex 問他，在真實的武術和超現實的武術之間，你更喜歡哪個，還是喜歡那支舞。RZA 說喜歡那支舞。電影是拿來娛樂你的，所以他接受歐比旺在維達的劍落下來的時候從斗篷裡消失，盧克在跑，他接受。因為那是想象，想象被刺激之後，現實中的人就會去實現它。《星際迷航》在他眼裡就是我們手機的先行版本。他說人類只要在螢幕上看到一個想法，不管多wild，就會有人想去把它做出來。某個奇怪的小孩看了，就會說我要把這個造出來。也許會有什麼人把《回到未來》的時間機器造出來。

說唱界的波比·菲舍爾

聊到說唱史，RZA 舉了幾個名字。要講最偉大的，得從 Rakim 開始，得把 Kool G Rap 放進去。要往技術上頂到最前面，得從 Grandmaster Caz 開始，一個很多人沒聽過的名字，但他寫的詞你可能每一次唱《Rapper's Delight》的時候都唱過。那首歌抄了他的詞，改成了自己的。

然後他說，Nas 得放進這個名單。他說著指著面前那副棋盤，說最年輕的國際象棋特級大師，在卡爾森之前，是鮑比·菲舍爾，14 歲就成了大師。他見到 Nas 的時候 Nas 只有 15 歲，可 Nas 已經是個大師級的詞人了。一個人要練十年才成大師級詞人。武當幫被世界聽到的時候，他們大多數人已經練了十年說唱，所以世界一聽到他們，就是大師級的水平。GZA 已經是大腕了，那時候 GZA 21 歲，Nas 15 歲。

"Nas 就像說唱界的莫扎特，或者說鮑比·菲舍爾，生下來就帶著那個東西。"（RZA）

Lex 說，不只是詞寫得好，他還有深度，不只是詞匠的技藝，還有資訊，能把資訊壓進短短的句子裡。RZA 說那就是能量的全部機密，怎麼把這麼多能量壓進這麼小的東西里，好讓它去點燃另一頭。Nas 15 歲就在幹這個。RZA 說比 Nas 大四五歲，一直有自己的自信，看到那孩子只有 15 歲，他就得把自己再往上提一檔。Nas 19 歲那年，《Illmatic》出來了。

那首可以放進你口袋的歌

Lex 問他自己最驕傲的歌詞。

他提了一首叫《Sunshower》的歌，只在《Wu-Tang Forever》雙碟的國際版裡。他說要是有人能把那首歌詞聽下來寫下來，放進兜裡，大概能解決人生 25% 的問題。還有《Sunshine》，講宗教和神的那首。

他念了《Sunshine》的一段：所有問題的答案，所有暗示的火花，公義，通往完美之路，他給你一切，從不多問，是你身邊有信的同伴，每一場戰爭都跟你一起打。在史前的歷史的凡人視角之前，他是一切中的一切，你正在尋找的那位神諭。一個不可能的任務純粹是哲學問題，但你可以在臨終的床上呼喚他，當你躺在醫院裡的時候，你會呼喚。

他說起他妻子的閨蜜 Rebecca 嫁了個科學家，兩口子都是科學家，一個叫 Neil。Rebecca 和 Neil 常來家裡，他和 Neil 就科學和宗教辯論，一辯能辯到天亮。在 Neil 有孩子之前，他更硬，說自己不信神。有孩子之後，立場沒變。RZA 就問了 Neil 一個問題：如果你快死了，你現在有孩子要惦記，想的東西不一樣了，你不會打那個電話嗎？Neil 想了想說他大概會打。這一問就啟發了那段歌詞。

他又唸了《Sunshower》，他說那是《Sunshine》的前傳。開頭是：麻煩跟著邪惡的心走，人生稜鏡裡的 2020 視力，可你還是瞎的，因為你缺了內在的。所以每個罪人都可能落到永恆的冬天裡，地獄的火裡。但荊棘和刺先扎進你的眼睛，你喊出來，你的話飛出去，你依然是沒人聽見的。內在和外在的受苦，加上那些邪惡的同胞，精子和核心一起，放出熱核的高溫，把你牢牢地、永久地燒在那本生命之書的日誌旅程上。那些沒有正義地奪取別人生命的人，最後會變成"冷"（just ice）。一直有人教你，你最壞的敵人也傷不了你，傷你最重的是你自己心裡邪惡的念頭。可人不該如此，除非在戰時，於是他們發現自己被審判在自己內在的宇宙法庭裡。

Lex 說這首很長，像三頁紙。RZA 說對，這是一首講人生的歌詞，講品格，講正直，講怎麼活在世上。這最終又連回到神。

死和死亡不是一件事

Lex 又回到死亡。RZA 說他之前已經回答過一次，他不怕死，但他不想看見死。就像路前方有一塊死亡的街區，他不往那邊開，他左轉或右轉。除非是某個更大的善需要他穿過去，那就穿。

Lex 說，可它還是會發生。RZA 說，所以才有對死亡的冥想，你今天結束的時候也可能死掉。他接著說，死（dying）和死亡（death）在他看來不是一回事。你可以每天都"死"一次，你可以死掉，然後就不是你自己了。但要走到一個不可回頭的點，那是另一個房間。

Lex 順著說，從這個意義上看，RZA 這個製作人在拍電影的時候會變成另一個人，下棋的時候會變成另一個人，打功夫、看功夫、當家人的時候也是。從一個地方過渡到另一個地方，每一次都是一次小小的死亡。你不是一個存在，你是很多個。RZA 說，那他現在會把所有這些都叫做生命，兄弟。那是有趣的。

圖派克和比吉

說到圖派克（Tupac）和比吉（Biggie），RZA 說他不是權威，只是作為同行說幾句。B.I.G. 不只是個厲害的詞人，他的聲音是無可挑剔的。有些說唱歌手壓到音樂上，你得先適應他、才能跟他一起搖，可他一開口，一段錄影像就已經是一張唱片了。你去聽他的歌，他的聲音可以放到任何一個伴奏上，不知道為什麼就變成一張唱片。

然後是 Pac。Pac 的聲音也一樣無可挑剔，但 Pac 有的是一種觸碰你所有情緒的能力，尤其是把情緒塞進你思想裡的能力。像《Brenda's Got a Baby》《Dear Mama》。同時他還有能力把你自己心裡的反叛者叫醒。這兩件事加起來，他可能比比吉更危險。比吉是你可以跟他一起玩的，到今天大家都還在玩，可 Pac 走的方向更接近 Malcolm X 那一路，社會怕這個。他很擅長傳達愛，也很擅長點燃革命。那很危險。非常危險。

Lex 說，想到如果這兩人還在，世界會是什麼樣，就很難不想。可世界就是這樣，亨德里克斯（Hendrix）那些人也是走得太早。

《教父》和擴張的圓圈

Lex 問他最愛的電影，是《教父》。RZA 說，主題一個個都連在真實生活裡，也連在電影語言裡。他跟《教父》的特殊關係是：他看這部片的時候，父親不在。所以他家的家庭結構和家庭價值觀，實際上是從這部電影裡借過來的。他和弟弟 Devon 把這部電影當回事，甚至照著它去搭自己的家庭生活：家裡得有一個人是領頭的，哪怕他更年輕。邁克爾比他兩個哥哥都小，可他配得上。他弟弟 Devon 比他大，他哥哥 King 也比他大。有意思的是，Devon 有時候會叫 King 弗雷多（Fredo）

他說，King 大概想反駁，King 甚至說過自己能把他打趴下。但你就是邁克爾。不是自己選的，是被定義成這樣的。他說，他哥、他姐、他弟都看著他，把他當成家裡的一道光，這是他的福氣。他還說，他家裡有個很好的傳統，所有人一起看這些電影。《A 計劃》《Pole Fighter》《Master Killer》《五毒》，這些片子不只是他懂，他家裡人全懂，他的朋友們也懂。他們之間有一套共同的語言，這套語言是電影給的，電影影響了他們的溝通方式。

《教父》是一個虛構故事，可它紮根在真實裡，是人的故事，沒那麼拔高，所以它那種純度能打動人，這種純度也打動他。他說維託·科萊昂不想碰毒品生意，可那個時代的生意找上門了。這有點像穆斯林兄弟從東來美國開店，賣火腿，他們當年還小，會進去抱怨，讓他們生氣。後來他長大了，想明白了，人家是來做生意的。他不一定非得賣，維託也沒有逼自己賣。《教父》裡維託拒絕了，代價是幾顆子彈，最後家裡還是有人去碰了。

Lex 問家族優先於一切這件事。RZA 說那在數學上是對的。可他接著說，耶穌其實講的是同一件事，他說的愛你的鄰人和兄弟，講的是那個社群。那位撒瑪利亞婦人來找他說兄弟不太舒服，他說不要把聖物給狗。他對一個女人說，不要把聖物給狗，等於叫她狗。要是翻成嘻哈語境，那就是他叫一個女的"dog"。他知道這話說出來是什麼效果。可那婦人回答說，狗也能吃主人桌上掉下來的碎渣。他就去幫了她。

再回到家族。是的，家族第一。可家族好了之後，得往外擴，擴到社群，擴到州，擴到國家，擴到世界。很多強大的家族被推翻，為什麼？因為家族強了之後，沒讓財富和機會往外擴。你看武當幫，家族先強起來，然後每個成員都能成立自己的公司，有自己的子家族。它必須往外長。然後他們接管了世界。

沒有動物需要為我而死

RZA 是素食者。Lex 把這件事跟前面那個"擴大共情的圓圈"連起來問。RZA 說他得出的結論很簡單：沒有什麼非得為我的生而死。動物不必。植物也一樣。

他舉牛排做例子。假設你要一塊最貴的牛排，為了裡面的蛋白質去練肌肉。那頭牛或者公牛能長到 1500 磅，公牛全身上下都是肌肉，而它只吃草。所以不管是運動員還是普通人，不吃肉也能發揮得好，只要方法對。

他還講了植物的賬。你拿一個蘋果，裡面有好幾顆種子，把種子種下去，就會長出一整棵樹，樹上結滿蘋果，每個蘋果裡又有好幾顆種子。可你殺掉一條魚，它就不能再繁殖了，一切就結束了。而你吃下蘋果，排洩出去的東西還能回去肥土，讓蘋果再長出來。這是迴圈。

Lex 提到 David Foster Wallace 寫的短篇《Consider the Lobster》（想想那隻龍蝦）。從龍蝦的視角看，你把它放進冷水裡，慢慢加熱，一直到它沒了，這是酷刑。他猜，龍蝦大概是從宗教裁判所那個年代開始被吃的，那些人本來也喜歡折磨動物，折磨完了發現還挺好吃，大概就是這麼被發現的。

RZA 把話頭拐回 AI。他說不應該往這個世界裡增加痛苦，因為沒必要。但如果真的必要，比如你在沙漠裡，什麼吃的都沒有，只有那隻蜥蜴，那就沒辦法，蜥蜴得走。人對自己有支配權的東西，那個"支配"更像一個看護人的角色，而我們現在的做法是支配它、吃掉它、煮了它。他說誰第一個看著龍蝦想到要吃它。那東西很難吃，你得走一套流程才能吃到嘴裡。螃蟹也是，他小時候吃螃蟹，不知道為什麼會喉嚨癢，就那麼吃。可一隻螃蟹能給你的肉，大概就一個指頭那麼多，弄出來還特別費勁，算下來不值。給他一根香蕉，對身體、對飽腹都更好。

他講了他眼裡的祝福：你拿到一顆種子，或者一個蘋果，蘋果裡面有好幾顆種子，種下去會長成一棵樹。可你殺一條魚，它就沒了。殺掉，就沒了，什麼都不會回來。

生命的意義是把生命還回去

Lex 丟擲最後那個問題：這一切的意義是什麼，生命的意義是什麼。RZA 說他不急著答，先給一個人的答案，再給自己的。

他說十五六歲的時候他問過這個問題。當時有個兄弟在學數學。字母 I 代表 Islam，意思是作為個體與 Islam 完全一致。有人把 Islam 解釋成阿拉伯語裡的"和平"，又把和平解釋成"沒有困惑"。這些他都記得，尤其是後面那一層：那個兄弟把 Islam 拆成了一句首字母縮寫，"I stimulate light and matter"，我激發光與物質。他當時愣了。因為如果他不在這裡，光與物質對他就都不存在。是他在激發它們，他不在，它們就不在。

然後他問，那生命的意義是什麼。那位兄弟說，永遠愛 Islam。RZA 說他講的不是宗教那層，他講的是前面那幾層：我激發光與物質。他很喜歡這個。

他自己的答案是：生命就是要我們每個人往上面加東西。建造。像他前面說的那些大師一樣，往上疊。生命給了你生命，你把生命還回去。

"Life gave you life. Give life back."（RZA）

這場對話的收尾，Lex 引了柏拉圖的一句話：詩比歷史更接近重要的真相。

可以馬上做的事

把這期聊完，有幾件事是聽完就能動手的，不用等。

  • 找一個師父。哪怕你在自己的領域已經是多白金級別，也可以像 RZA 那樣彎腰去求一個比你強的人，請他帶你一段。放低身段的成本，遠低於自己瞎摸索的成本。
  • 學一門需要長期計算的技藝。棋、拳、寫作都行。練的不是招式，是在被攻擊、被逼到牆角的時候，腦子還能切到"虎、鶴、豹、蛇、龍"裡合適的那一形。招式是練出來的，心態是磨出來的。
  • 把"下雨了就淋溼"記在心裡。該享受當下的時候就享受，別撐傘，別回屋。錯過了那個時刻，它不會再來第二遍。
  • 認真對待你吃進身體的東西。RZA 的賬很簡單：沒有什麼非得為你而死。如果條件允許，試著往植物那邊挪一點，對身體、對世界都更划算。
  • 對困惑客氣一點。你越急著要答案，越容易抓一個錯的答案。坐下來，等，資訊會變清楚。
  • 去研究那些已經做到你想做的事的人的腳印。最快的路是坐在有智慧的人旁邊，不管是活著的，還是只留下書和作品的。
  • 把家族做強，然後讓圓圈往外長。家族好了就往社群擴，往州擴，往國家、往世界擴。很多強大家族倒下，是因為它強了卻不肯讓機會往外走。
  • 挑一首歌詞、一段文字、一本書放進兜裡。《Sunshower》那樣的一首，RZA 說能解決你人生大概四分之一的問題。你也可以自己找一首。
文稿來自公開 Kaggle 資料集（rajneesh231/lex-fridman-podcast-transcript），為早期自動轉錄存檔，可能存在識別錯誤。
The following is a conversation with RZA. The rapper, record producer, filmmaker, actor, writer, philosopher, Kung Fu scholar, and the mastermind of the legendary hip hop group Wu Tang Clan. This is the Lex Friedman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, here's my conversation with RZA. In the Tao of Wu, you write, when my mother left the physical world, I lost one of my main links to the universe. They say that you have an umbilical cord and an etheric cord, which is the invisible cord that attaches you to your soul, your mother's soul and all other souls. When one passes away, you really lose something. It's physical and mental. It's real. Part of you dies. What have you learned about life from your mother? I mean, I learned life itself from my mother. You know, being one of 11 children and seeing the sacrifice that she gave to us, therefore given to life. It's really the greatest lesson of life. The thing that shook me as I wrote those words was coming up young with arrogance, confidence, knowledge of myself. They called me the scientist. We was taught you're the supreme being. In order to be the supreme being, you gotta be supreme amongst other beings. I understand that more now than I did then because then it was so literal. You know, the word God derived basically from the Greek language, as they say, and it meant wisdom, strength and beauty. Yeah, we could have that. But the power to control life and death is something that you would assume is a God trait. So now here you are saying that you're a God, right? And you're reading the Bible, how Jesus brought back Lazarus. And you know, now it's your turn to do something. And when my mother was laying there in the hospital bed and air was no longer coming out of her lungs and going into her lungs, where's my power to bring her back to life? Yeah, so you can't truly be God. You're powerless. Yeah, or God is not the definition that we need to use to describe it because it's a translation of wisdom, strength and beauty. So you could be that. But so I'm answering your question, what did my mother teach me about life? I learned that day on her physical passing, that okay, you know what I mean, there's a physical me. Do you think about her, do you miss her? Of course, I keep my mother in my prayer every day. And the thing I pray the most beyond giving thanks is I pray that her name is honored and remembered by my family. I don't know if the world's gonna remember that, right? Even though if you watch my movie, Love Beats Rhymes, I named the school in that movie after my mother just to leave it somewhere else. Yeah, in physical space. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, painful. The pain of my mother's passing is indescribable. Only until it happens to a person they know and then they won't describe it either. Only the people that lost their mother, they could look at each other and they got this nod. You know what I mean? But one other thing happened to me was the joy of life hit me differently. And I think it was the realization of my own mortality versus my immortality. It's a big, big thing. And I don't know if we'll get to expound on that, but there was a joy that overcame me because I was kind of free of a certain illusion about the immortality of my physical being versus the mortality of my physical being. And I was like, okay, wow, I understand. So that was the first or the hardest realization you've experienced that you're mortal. Yeah, that, yeah. And I'll say mortal and what you're looking at here physically, I won't say my soul is mortal. I'll say it's immortal because at the end of the day, it's just like I can sit here and I could just hum, please, please, please, by James Brown. But James Brown is not gonna come in here and do that. So in some sense, James Brown is still here. In another sense, he's gone. His soul is here. His soul is here. Well, it lives through you by you singing it. It lives through you by you listening to it, celebrating it. And the hope is that the human species continues to celebrate the great minds and the great creations of the past. I will add this to that equation. When I say it's immortal, I don't think it's not just only because somebody sings it, right? It's like, where's the fire at right now? It's in the air. You just gotta spark the spark. Yeah. So it's always there. Are you afraid of death? Nah, I'm not afraid of death. I'm not trying to see it. I'm not watching that nowhere near me, right? Because all I know is life, right? My life is living. I read a lot of ancient texts, people probably know about me. I love one of the great teachers named Bodhidharma. And there was a thing written in one of the books of his or one of the teachings of his. And the question, somebody asked him similar question, you're scared of death or what are you gonna be after you die? And his answer was, I don't know. He had answers to everything. But he was like, I don't know. They said, oh, he doesn't know that. So yeah, because I haven't died yet. Yeah, well, the uncertainty to some people is terrifying. Not knowing what's on the other side of the door. Yeah. I mean, especially when you're young. You know, as a kid, fear permeated my life. You know what I mean? You know, I was actually watching horror movies and I believed in all type of supernatural things that could or can happen. I thought I saw things as well. And you know, whether it was being projected in my own mind or whether it was there visible to me, I don't know, right? But life is beautiful and we have it. And we should use it all the way to the last drop. Realizing the mortality, the gift your mother gave to you is realizing the immortal. And in so doing, help you realize that life is beautiful. Yeah. On this topic, Quincy Jones, I read, said to ODB and you, when it rains, get wet. What do these words mean to you? Well, I think what Quincy was saying at that time was, you know, I think I was more conservative, like as a person. And like, you know, I had money. Women wanted me. Anything I kind of wanted, I probably could have had. You know what I mean? And he was just saying, when it rains, get wet. Enjoy this, man. It's raining on you. You know what I mean? Don't put up the umbrella. Don't go back in the house. Get wet. Experience the moment. Yeah, and enjoy it. And I didn't take total heed to him at that time. A couple of years later, I took some heed. But at that time, I didn't take heed. And when I took heed, I think that I may have misinterpreted by looking at his example of getting wet versus my example of getting wet. And I can tell you right now, I'm getting wet right now in my way. In part, thanks to your mother. But overall, you just learned how to appreciate the rain, just like the experience of every moment. Yeah, and I'll share this with you because this is going to be a very open conversation and I haven't had this conversation. So definitely in part to my mother, then in part to my wife. I meet my wife, it's my second wife, but I met her after my mother passed. And she was just a friend. You know, some girl I met, I thought she was beautiful and actually built a friendship with her. But a few years later, when the relationship became like, you know, this is going to be my woman, it was actually when I was doing the middle of my divorce and I was like, you know, do I run wild and hey, hey, hey, you know, me and my wife already filed, we were separated. And do I run wild? And I didn't run wild, a little bit, but not too wild. And you know, I'm still a man, I'm a hip hop guy, so. I read you know how to party. Yeah, exactly. But the funny thing is that my wife now, her name is Talani, my uncle said, she reminds me of your mother. He knew my mother before I knew my mother. And he saw that and we ended up dating, got engaged and then her mother passes. And so now there's a total understanding of everything. And we actually help build each other back up. So of course I have to thank my mother for the awareness. Then I thank my wife for bringing that awareness to actual actualization, like to actually feel, I don't think I'll be talking to you right now and talking as much as I do these days, if it wasn't for the security and peace and harmony that I was able to gain at home, you know, so. And like you said, you now share that look of having both lost your, your mom. What have you learned from Quincy about music, about business, about life? Quincy Jones is a great mind, great artist, you know, a treasure in all reality. He seen it from when it was, he couldn't walk in this, he couldn't eat in the same places he played his music at to owning places bigger than ours. So what a beautiful life, you know? He's the type of guy, if you spend one hour with him, you got a lifetime of information. And I was blessed to spend multiple hours with him and days with him. And, you know, there's a certain period of time where we came across each other and he was always there to share the knowledge. Like that's another thing about him that I think is special. And hopefully I picked that up, is that he's always willing to share, share with his experience, his knowledge. I mean, I think he'll even share his home to the right person if he feels that that's what they need to get back on their feet. He's a very beautiful man. So just the kindness, the goodness of the man is like the thing that really rubbed off on you. Yeah, I mean, minimum, right? I mean, Quincy Jones also in his fifties, as a producer, produced one of the greatest albums of all time and one of the greatest selling albums of all time. Not just great critically, economically great. And I mean, I think he did it at the age I am right now. So I might have a great year coming up. I don't know. Yeah. Time and well, yeah. So now you got a taste of what greatness is. You get to see what greatness is. So you know what you need to do for yourself. Exactly, how to strive for yourself, yeah. You have a few people you've worked with who are fascinating like yourself. Quentin Tarantino, you worked with him. When somebody asked you to describe him with one word, you said encyclopedia. What have you learned from the guy about filmmaking and about life again? A very generous man with his knowledge. And for me, he shared it, I think, in a way that was unique in a sense of, you know, at a point in time, you know, we just was super duper tight. Like, you know, like I'm going to this crib and watching movies and just having long conversations about art and about life. You know what I mean? So I learned a lot. I consider him, you know, especially when it comes to anything cinematic in my life, I consider him the godfather of that for me. I think, you know, I humbly asked him to mentor me, which is a very humbling thing to do coming from my neighborhood, coming from who I am, coming from, I was already a multi platinum artist, you know, I mean, it was a year, it was past the year 2000 already. So like 2001, 2002 that I asked him to mentor me. So I was the wizard already, you know what I mean? But I humbled myself because I saw in him a craft of brain power that to me resonated with me, but I was just a Patamon at it, I was a novice at it because I was trying to make movies in my music, you know, trying to make videos. And here was a man who was a master of it and an encyclopedia of it as well. Like film history. Film history from whether it's the actor, the director, the cinematographer, maybe even the costume designer. He may know 50, 60, he may know the 50 greatest costume designers in his memory. Yeah, I mean, it's a guy's brain. Both of you have pretty good memory. Yeah. I'd love to be a fly on the wall of that conversation. And kung fu movies, most of you guys want. We actually started, I think we started our relationship trying to outdo each other. Knowledge wise or what? Yeah, movie knowledge wise. Actually kung fu movie knowledge wise. And I think that, if it wasn't another category, I wouldn't have had a chance, but at least in that category, I was pretty holding my weight. For one. You know what? I'll be honest and say that I may have said a few, he didn't see, but Quentin is older than me. Yeah. So he could go back. Farther. Yeah, he could go back to 72 when I didn't see one yet. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, he said Master of the Flying Gate Team that I got a chance to, that you commentated over today and I got a chance to see the screening of. He said that's one of his favorites. For you, the 36 Chamber of Shaolin, the Master Killer is your favorite. Best ever, would you say? That's the greatest Kung Fu movie ever? It's hard to say the greatest ever, right? Because somebody may make another one and it depends on your own phase of life. But I will put that first. If I want to introduce somebody to Kung Fu movies, that's a beautiful entry. You talk about knowledge, you talk about wisdom. What kind of wisdom do you draw from Kung Fu movies? The, you know what? The martial art itself and the movies. It's endless wisdom to be drawn and I draw it, you know? I draw it in a way, you know, that I could decipher it in my own life. So for instance, in the movie, Master Killer, he basically, when he does Kung Fu, he does it really a style called the Hung Ga technique. And the director of the movie is actually a Hung Ga expert who has a lineage that traces all the way back to Shaolin Temple. And this director always wanted to keep his movies pure and to bring Hung Ga to the world. It's like he wanted to show the world this lineage. In fact, you just said Master of the Flying Guillotine is Quentin's favorite movie. And we mentioned that 36 Chambers is my favorite movie, but the action director of Master of Flying Guillotine is the director of 36 Chambers of Shaolin. And some of the things that's happening in Master of the Flying Guillotine is really the infant stage of what this action director is going to learn and then use later on in his movies. So that's the beauty of it. It's almost like, you know, Quentin is seeing him in his generation. So Quentin might have been the same age I was watching that movie. And then when he becomes a director, I'm at Quentin's age and now I'm seeing his work. So some symbionic relationship there. And I'll end this question by saying, Hung Ga deals with the five animal technique, the tiger, the crane, the leopard, the snake, and a dragon. Those are the five, that's the five pattern. Some people go seven, some go 12, but it's a stick to the five pattern fist. How do a man emulate a tiger? And you see a tiger's fists. He curls before he spawns on you. How does a man emulate a snake? It doesn't have to be only in the Kung Fu move. It's in the ideology of the snake. It's in the agility of the crane. At any moment, sometimes punching a person is not going to work, as they would say in leopard fist or tiger paw. So sometimes you might have to poke them in the eye with the crane's beak. So having your mind able to adapt the instinct of the animal when you are being attacked or when you are being the aggressor, that's something that you don't need a form for. That's the mentality. So Kung Fu, like I said, it informs me endlessly because at first I was trying to learn how to hold my, like, I can't really hit you with that and really hurt you unless I've been banging my hand a thousand times on some bricks and made it so callous or muscles are so strong. But the idea that if me and you was to get into a fight and I'm going to tiger up on you and take that instinct and prance when I'm a prance, or fly away like the stork, you know what I mean? Like, yo, that's the mentality. put the emotion in it, right? So are you thinking there's an algorithm for emotion? Yes, but I think emotion isn't something that there's an algorithm for for a particular system, we create emotions together. So emotion is something like this conversation, it's like magic we create together. So I've worked with quite a few robots, I've a very simple version of that, I've had Roomba vacuum cleaners, I've had them make different sounds and one of them is like screaming in pain, like lightly, and just having them do that when you kick them or when they run into stuff, immediately I start to feel something for them. So the emotion, okay, so the emotion you're saying is imposed back on the human, but I'm asking, do you think there's an algorithm for the emotion to be imposed from machine to machine? Yeah, that's a really good way to ask it. It's difficult because I think ultimately I only know how to exist in the human world. So it's like, it's the question of if a tree falls in the forest, nobody's there to see it, does it still fall? I still think that ultimately machines will have to show emotion to other humans and that's when it becomes real. I've been thinking about this a lot too. And I just, okay. No, I'm not gonna hit you with this because I've been thinking about this and this is your field here. Well, do you think the emotion is wave? Like light is wave or do you think it's particle? So emotion is just a small, it's like a shadow of something bigger. And I think that bigger thing is consciousness. So emotion is just. I don't know if it's a wave or a particle. I haven't thought about that. I have thought about it, whether it's, there's something like whether consciousness or emotion is a law of physics. Like if it's that fundamental to the universe. I had a lyric that said this, it comes out. They did this documentary about the planet and I wrote a song, it's called The World of Confusion. And I'll try to paraphrase the lyric, but in the world of the confusion, where there's so much illusions, we suck the blood from the planet. Now it needs a transfusion and the redistribution of wealth, of health and wealth of self and a deeper understanding about mental health. The doctor prescribed the physical solution. The psychiatrist wants to build a bigger institution, but neither have the solution or the equation to make an instrument to measure the weight of the hate vibration. What is the weight of hate? Is it heavier than the weight of love? Is it heavier than the weight of lead inside of a slug? With just 10 milligrams, it's all it takes to kill a man. But anyways, do not go on from there. Damn, that's good. But the question, you see the question there, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, can it be measured? Can that be measured? I think so, I think so. Just look at the instrument, yeah. Yeah, we're in the dark ages of that, but I think it could be measured. I think there's something physical, like something that connects us all this much. We tend to think we humans are distinct entities and we move about this world, but I think there's some deeper connection. And, but we're so, listen, science is in the, we just had a few breakthroughs in the past 100 years from Einstein on the theoretical physics side. We don't know anything about human psychology. We barely know much about human biology. We're trying to figure it all out. Yeah, I had another theory, because, you know, you think about quantum, right? As long as you say that there's an uncertainty and you have me believe there's an uncertainty, then there's an uncertainty. But if there's not an uncertainty, what happens? So I'm only saying that, it's not, because you look at quantum computers, they're gonna give you the O, the one, the one, the O, they're gonna take two things and make it eight things. And by the time you multiply four of those things together, it's like this chess board, right? The moves goes into the millions. But the thing that's introduced is the uncertainty, right? You're gonna make a move. You know this already, right? Because this has been played a thousand times, but sooner or later, something uncertain is gonna come in or make your next move. I like the weight of these. They add the certainty. I think just like what we were saying, unpredictable, there's something about us humans that really doesn't like everything to be fully predictable. I mean, chess too is perfectly solvable. There's nothing unpredictable about chess. Right, well, I could agree to that because Bobby Fischer said in one of his books, which I actually love what he said. He said, every game of chess is a draw. Yeah. The only way somebody win is when one of us makes a mistake. I mean, it doesn't get any better than that. Yeah, it doesn't. What is chess? Like, how do you think about chess? What's at the core of your interest in chess? Do you see Kung Fu, music, film, all of it, life, all just living through chess? Yeah, I see, it's the most stimulating passage of time for me that's also, it's like, it's a pastime that stimulates my mind, my music, my thoughts about life at the same time. So while some pastimes is like, say baseball is a pastime. And baseball could stimulate you depending on how you look at it, right? But most likely, you're not gonna get this much brain activation, this much calculation, and this much thinking about yourself in a game of baseball. I mean, the player maybe, but not the viewer. Chess is something that I can engage in too. And even though it's a pastime, it's given me all the stimulation of real time in my life. It's funny because it's also, it's a funny game because it's connected through centuries of play. Just some of the most interesting people in the history of the world have played this game and have struggled with whatever, have projected their struggles onto the chessboard and thought, and the nations have fought over the chessboard. The Soviet Union versus the United States, Bobby Fischer represented the United States. Spassky represented the Soviet Union. Yeah. I gotta, before I lose track of it, when we were talking about The Godfather, you were in American Gangster, great film. You said it's one of your favorites too. What, you were in it with Denzel Washington. What makes that movie meaningful to you? What was it like making that movie? Because it's a great, great American film. That was a great American film. It was so many things in that film. Being a part of that film was probably a blessing and a treasure, because even if I wasn't a part of it, it just caught such great filmmaking and to me, a really cool, great story. The thing that I love about it the most really is the process of it. Which part of the process? I wouldn't have known the process if I wasn't part of it. So as a film joy, it was a great film, but even the process of making it was like high level education for me on multiple levels. I'm working with Ridley Scott, which is, and this is a bold statement if I say this here, cause I got a lot of friends that's going to probably, but he's probably the best living director. Because watching him allowed me to understand a principle that I've coined to him and I don't know if people use it yet, called multi vision. He seems to have the capacity to see eight things at one time. I heard on Robin Hood, he had 18 cameras. I wasn't there for that. And you think he keeps them all in his mind, just seeing. I seen him do it when he went to the monitors with the video playback guy. I seen him bring everything back to a point, but nothing was the same on the frame. He was already there. And he knew if he had what he was or not. And he placed the cameras there. And he saw it in his own way. And I peeped it. I peeped it. And I said, yeah. And I just humbly asked him. He was gracious enough to speak to me and talk to me. And confirm what I thought I saw. He confirmed it. He confirmed it. And I was able to utilize it, as I'm a filmmaker now. And I see, I can at least see three or four things. I can't see eight yet. I'll be there though. But I could definitely, even right now, just I could go like this in the room, OK? I got it now. I got how to make this right here, which is just us all sitting. How do I make this dramatic? Look, boom. Come on on him. There's a story there. There's a story there. And I might just go off his hanging watch or his hanging wristband. Yeah. Because there's something else there too. Is he dead? We don't know. Exactly. So he has this. And even though this is the scene. Yeah, you keeping that in mind, all of this in mind. Yeah. What about like, can you give an inkling of other parts of the process, like the editing? Like where does the magic happen? Another thing. Pedro, I don't pronounce Pedro last name right. He's a cool guy. I had a chance to play rugby with him. He was on, was he on my team? Yeah. We were in both teams. But Pedro, the editor who edited many great films, once again, he has, I will call, deciphering power. A good editor is a decipher, almost like breaking the enigma, because he's dealing with thousands, or we'll call it a film, with millions of feet of film, at least a million feet of film. That's a lot of film for a feature. He's dealing with that. But he's dealing with multiple cameras. So it ain't like it's like two cameras. He got an A, B, and he could just go back. No. He may have six cameras, and he has to go back and deal with that process. And you know what? He knows how to tell the story again. And he proved it on American Gangster as me being a witness, because it's so much information. Even when the brothers all start getting their little business and then he put one in the Bronx, he just captured every neighborhood within one minute, and you knew what would happen. You knew it all. You saw the whole rise of fame. You watched the Palmer and Scarface, who does it in two minutes, but it's only one character. So you see him go to the bank. He drops the money off. You see him buy the lion. You see him gets his wife, or the tiger. You see him gets his wife, you see all that. And then it ends on the big side of him in a big house with all the TV screens. And you seen him go through it, right? But in American Gangster, you're going to tell that story of rising, but you also got to include these five brothers. Yeah. And that's all in the edit. Oh, man. But also all in the director knowing that as well. And you got to keep thinking about them, because that was a story right there. Yeah. While I was hearing it, I don't know if they was taking pictures of him, or they might have a little party over there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chess, I think. Yeah, I like it. They're playing chess in the distance. This is great. You said that you were always an old soul and see the world as if you're 200 years old. I like this line. Because your creative vision allows you to see the final piece you've created, or you're creating very quickly, quicker than others. I heard that as if you've almost lived many lives. You have this experience that allows you to see the vision. So let me ask you on creativity, where does this creativity behind RZA come from, both musically and film wise? I don't know if I have the answer to that one, right? Seriously, where does it come from? Only thing I could say about that is that for some reason, it seems endless. And that's peculiar when I think about it myself, because I was taught a lot of things from the JZA. He introduced me to mathematics. He introduced me to hip hop itself, to break dancing. I got other cousins that introduced me to graffiti, cousins that introduced me to DJing. I realized that I had a lot of introductions, but the JZA definitely, my older cousin, gave me a lot of early inspirations. And not saying that he's not creative, as creative as he was then or now, the wide span of creativity, I don't see him doing that, right? And I don't see the cousins that taught me how to DJ. I didn't see them move from DJing to making the beats. My cousin who actually got me into instruments, I didn't see him leave funk and rock. I'm an orchestra composer now. So I just said to myself, I just accept myself as an artist, as a creative artist. That's what I am. I have to accept that. Now, where it comes from, I don't know. If I was to try to say where it comes from, like, hey, give me some type of answer, I would say from life itself. But what does it feel like? Because you mentioned during this pandemic, for example, for some reason, more came to you in terms of writing. And so do you feel like you're just receiving signals from elsewhere, or do you feel like it's hard work, or you're just waiting? Wow. It's not even waiting, nor is it hard work. It's almost like I said in one of my other lyrics, this is for the MC part of it. I said, MCing to me is easy as breathing. So it's like breathing. Yeah, it's just like, in fact, there's actually was a scientific thing I read about that. Now that you've said that. You heard this? I know you've had to hear this. They say that the atoms in our atmosphere, which seem to be infinite in number, are not infinite in the space they occupy. Because they're in our atmosphere. And so there's a chance that at least 1 million atoms that you breathe in your life was breathed by Galileo. You heard this before, right? Yeah. OK. It's very accurate. OK. How does your body digest it? Oh, let's start at the fact that most of the atoms that we're made of is from stars, right? Stars burst. So we're all really connected fundamentally somehow. And then the atoms that make up our body come and leave. And the same with the cells that are in our body, they die and are reborn. And we don't pay attention to any of that. That all just goes through us. I don't know. That makes me feel like I'm not an individual. I'm just a finger of something much bigger, some much bigger organism. Well, because you're drinking the coffee there, right? You're going to digest that. You're going to digest those atoms, whether you're going to put them through the bowel or through the urination, it's coming out. Or maybe you'll sweat it out. Yeah. You might sneeze it out. Yeah. But they're going to make their way out. How do you digest the atoms if you just breathe in Galileo? Right? And that's what I think an artist does. I think something in the artist, it's like some people eat things and they're going to gain weight. Some people ain't going to gain weight. They're going to gain muscle. I'll just give you an analogy here. I'm thinking that the artist breathes in and translates it into the art. First, they got to hear it. I think most of us don't hear that. We receive it, but it just doesn't come out. Yeah, we not have the frequency. I said this to a lot of artists. And even we all can consider ourselves artists in a certain way. But let's just say there's only one million artists in the world. Good. Because it's probably 10. If you divide that into the population, what part of the table would it be? The tiny part. It might be that, right? And yet, it's that that inspires that. And you know what's so crazy about that, though? There's also a chance. I'm just going numbers and I'm just hypothesizing with you. But there's also a chance that all of this is actually informing that. Yeah. The artist is just watching this, all of this, all the chaos of this. Yeah, so it's hard to know where the beauty comes from. Is it the artist or the chaos from the? So I just say I don't have the answer. But if I was to be forced to say an answer, and you're not twisting my arm, but I'll say. I can if you want me to. No, thank you. I'll say life. Yeah, life. In Tao of Wu, you write something about confusion, which I really like. Confusion is a gift from God. Those times when you feel most desperate for a solution, sit, wait. The information will become clear. The confusion is there to guide you. Seek detachment and become the producer of your life. So I got to ask you advice. If a young person today in high school, college is looking for some advice, what advice could you give them to be a producer of a life that can be proud of? Read the Tao of Wu. Let's start with the Wu Tang manual first. Yeah. No, you could do that second. Second? Yeah. I think you could read the Tao of Wu first and then do the manual. Because the manual is not to put the two books against each other, but the manual is talking about things that is so deeply connected to the music. And the people in the Tao of Wu goes beyond that. So I would actually start there, which is not normally what I would prescribe. I always tell people, start in knowledge, then go to wisdom. But since the Tao of Wu. Skip ahead to the wisdom. I like it. Yeah, I think for a young man in high school, go to the Tao of Wu and then go back. It's just like sometimes you have my son's generation, they have to watch the second round of Star Wars. Yeah. And then they go back. You know what I mean? This generation is watching The Force Awakens. And then they go back. Yeah. But what, because if you just look at your life as an example, that's one heck of a life. There's very few lives like it. You've created some of the most incredible things artistically in this world. Like if somebody, you talk about that like 1 million, right? At the corner of the table. If somebody wants, strives, dreams to become one of those, how do they do it? Well, the beautiful thing is that there are footprints left by those who've done it. And the best way is to study that. To study those who've already done what you want to do. We live on a civilization. As we said, this is the greatest country in the world. But our seal is a pyramid with an I on it. You know what I mean? Because they did it before. And they may have failed for some reason or something happens. But it was just a strong enough example to take us further. Elon Musk is sitting here trying to do better than what the rocket builders did before. He's not the first one to build the rocket. He's not the first guy to think of with the electric car. He's doing it better. He's advancing it to the point that whoever picks up after him, maybe they'll get to that flying car. So that's the beauty. There's a good verse. I love finding verses to say things to confirm. Because this way, people could take it verbally, physically, and then maybe even spiritually. But Christmas has said a verse. He said, the fastest way to heaven is by spending time or studying the wise people. Meaning the wise people who are living and those who live before you. Study the masters. Let me ask you a big, perhaps ridiculous question, but give it a shot. What is the meaning of this whole thing? What's the meaning of life? Big question. I'm not going to rush into the answer. I'm going to give you somebody else's answer first, and I'll give you my answer. I remember asking this when I was 15, 16 years old. One of the brothers was studying in mathematics. And the letter I itself means I Islam. I meaning the individual being in total accord with Islam. And let me finish this. Then they took the word Islam, and they defined it as Islam is an Arabic word for peace. Then they said, peace is the absence of confusion. OK? So then they took them. This is something that really hit me when I never forgot it. And I'm going to decipher it. But then they took the word Islam, and they broke it down by the letter into an acronym, like cash, with everything around me. And they broke it down to I stimulate light and matter. And I was like, what? Because what hit me is that if you're not here, then light and matter don't exist to you. So you're stimulating it, or it ain't here for you. So anyway, taking all that. But then I said, so what's the meaning of life? And the brothers just said, love Islam forever. Right? Yeah. And I said, I ain't saying the religious point of it. I'm just saying all those other elements I just spoke about in front of it. I stimulate light and matter. I love that. That's powerful. And let me give you my definition of life. I think life is simply for each and every one of us to add on to. Build. Like you said, the masters. Build on top. Life gave you life. Give life back. I don't think there's a better way to end it than talking about the meaning of life. RZA, I'm a huge fan. It's such a huge honor that you spend your valuable time with me. Thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me. Peace. Thanks for listening to this conversation with RZA. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from Plato. Poetry is nearer to vital truth than history. Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time. It's much more than the technical moves. It's much deeper. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, when I see the Kung Fu movies, because I love martial arts, all martial arts, and competitive ones too, like the actual competitions and so on. It just seems like Kung Fu movies go much deeper than just like the techniques. Yeah, they start, I mean, if you see it, right, even I watched the great MMA fight recently, just interesting because he was on top of the guy, and the way he got from under him, it had to be his spirit got from under him. It's some like mixture of crane and whatever. Snake, ill, with the slippery ill technique. Yeah. No, I love that when people become artists in the cage or that's much bigger than just like winning, much bigger than particular techniques. It's just art, especially at the highest level competition where millions of people are watching. Which is pressure within itself. Yeah, that's art under pressure is even more beautiful art. You know, you look at some of these fights and you wonder like why somebody wins and lose. And sometimes the less talent guy could win because he could deal with the pressure. But the other guy, he could have beat them if they were somewhere else, but not in this arena. So you're a scholar of history, including hip hop history. I've listened to so many of your interviews. You've spoken brilliantly about some of the big figures in hip hop history, Tupac, Biggie, Nas, many others. Maybe let's look at Tupac and Biggie. What made them special in the history of music? Mm, that's a good question. So I don't know if I'm the authority to answer it, but I'll just speak my piece on it. And maybe I could just add on. Cause I'm sure it's a lot of people that spent a lot of time with them that could speak on it. But just as a fellow artist, I think not only was B.I.G a dope lyricist, I think he had a voice that was really immaculate. In a sense that some rappers get on top of music and you gotta get used to them when you gotta vibe with them. But he make a record sounds like a record immediately. If you go back and listen to his music, you could take his voice and put it on anything. And for some reason, it sounds like a record. You know what I mean? You mean just like the raw voice of the man? Yeah. So you could just listen to it raw and it sounds like a record. Yeah, but if you put a beat, take his voice and put it on any beat, he just has a voice, it's immaculate, you know? So his lyrical skills and all that was great. And you gotta think once again, he's doing all this, he's not even 25 years old. Yeah, yeah. And then you go to Pac, once again, immaculate voice. But what Pac had, I think, was a way of touching us on all of our emotions. And especially on, like Pac had the power to infuse your emotional thought. Like Brenda has a baby, their mama. But then he had the power to arouse the rebel in you. You know? Yeah. And those two things, actually, he was probably more dangerous than Big, Notorious B.I.G. Like Notorious B.I.G., we could party with him. To this day, we are still, but Pac was probably going to a point, he was more going into the Malcolm X of things and society fears that. Yeah, so he was really good at communicating love and at starting revolutions. Yeah. And that's dangerous. Very dangerous. And they communicated love, but he wasn't starting revolutions. Well, it's interesting to think about what the world would be like if they were still with us. But it's the way of the world. Hendrix, a lot of those guys just go too soon. Yeah, it's a peculiar thing. Now, you asked me earlier, am I scared of death? And I answered, you know, I'm not scared of death. I'm not trying to see it, though. You know what I mean? It's like, that was the block of death. It's like, I'm not really going right there right now. I'm making a left or right turn. You know what I mean? Unless it was mandatory for some greaterness, greater good. It's like, okay, I got to drive through that. You know what I mean? Yeah, but it can still happen. That's the meditation on death part, where you could die at the end of today. Yeah, you could die. Well, dying and death, I think, is two different things, personally. The process you mean of death or just? Yeah, I mean, you could die. Like I said, you could die every day. You could die and not be yourself. You know what I mean? Which is crazy. But to get to a point of no return, you know, that's a whole nother chamber. I mean, there's some sense in which RZA, the producer, becomes somebody else completely when you're making a film, becomes somebody else completely when you're, I don't know, playing chess, becomes completely something different when you do kung fu or watch kung fu or when you're a family man. All of those are little deaths when you transition from one place to another. So it's not like you're one being. You're many things. Yeah. I would describe, now I would describe that as all life, dawg. Yeah, it's fun. Outside of you and anybody on Wu Tang, who is the greatest rapper from a lyrics, like a Wart Smith perspective in hip hop history or some of the greatest, maybe some candidates? Let's name a few. I mean, you're gonna have to start with Rakim. You know? You're gonna have to pick Coogee Rap in there. You know what I mean? So going back. Yeah, you're gonna have to pick up with those brothers first. You might have to, if you want to get, technically you might have to start with Grandmaster Cass. You know what I mean? Who you might not even heard of. Nope. You know what I mean? But you may have sung his lyrics every time you sang Sugar Hill, Rapper's Delight. That's his? Yeah, they copied his and they made it theirs. That's my point being made, but I'll name a couple more. I gotta pick Nas in that category. You know, we got a chess board in front of us and one of the greatest chess players, the youngest Grandmaster, you know, before I think Carlson, was Bobby Fisher. All right, so let's use Bobby Fisher as American. One of the greatest American chess players. Of course, Susan Polgar may have tied his record as the youngest Grandmaster and she's the youngest female Grandmaster, I think to date. But he was a master at what, 14? Yeah, something like that. Right? So now to me, I met Nas when he was 15. He was already a master lyricist. It takes about 10 years to become a master lyricist. So by the time the world heard Wu Tang, most of us had 10 years of rapping in us already. So that's why you met us at mastery level. The Jizzer was already a master when Nas was a master, but Jizzer was 21, Nas was 15. Nas is like the Mozart of rap. Or the Bobby Fisher. Just Bobby Fisher, just born something in him. Or maybe those early years, just because he's not just good at the lyrics. He's also, he goes deep with it. Just like you. So he's like, there's depth. It's not just like mastery of the word smithing. It's just the message you actually get sent across. It's information. Yeah. Into a small phrase, right? That's the whole thing of energy. How do we condense all that energy into this so that it could fuel that? And he's definitely one of those artists, MCs that does that. And he was doing it at 15. Like I said, I think I'm five years or four or five years older than Nas. So I was always feeling my confidence of what I was doing. But I was like, this kid is only 15. I gotta step up my game. When he turned 19, then we got Illmatic. Yeah. From you, what are the best and most memorable lyrics you've ever written? Well, that's a hard question for me. The stuff stand out? Like stuff you're really proud of that was like important in your career? Yeah, I mean, I think I did a song called Sunshower. I don't know if we put it on the Wu Tang Forever double CD, but only on the international version. But if anybody could go get those lyrics and write those lyrics down, you could just put that in your pocket. And I'm sure that it'll answer at least about 25% of your life's problems. Well, that's a good one. Sunshine, where you talk about religion and God, that's good. I think it's on A Diagram. I'm not a record guy. Yeah. I'm a song guy. Might have been A Diagram. Do you have a lyric from it? Yeah, the answer to all questions. You're talking about God. Yeah. The spark of all suggestions, of righteousness, the pathway to the road of perfection, who gives you all and never asks more of you, the faithful companion that fights every war with you. Before the mortal view of the prehistorical historical, he's the all in all you searching for the oracle. That's a good line, man. This is so good. A mission impossible is purely philosophical, but you can call on your deathbed when you're laying in the hospital. You will call on your deathbed. I had a big, I have a scientist friend. Well, my wife's best friend, Rebecca, she married a scientist. They both scientists. They both were scientists, and she married Dr. Neil. I ain't going to say their last names. But Neil and Rebecca, my wife's best friend, so they come over. And me and Neil, we go through the longest debates of science and religion. We just go. We could go break day with it. And before he had a child, he was more adamant. And I don't believe in God. You know what I mean? After a child, he still kept his thing. But I just hit him with the question. If you was about to die, because now you got a child to think about, right? It's different when you're thinking about yourself. If you was about to die, you don't think you're going to make that call. He's like, I'll make that call. And it kind of inspired my lyric, because it was like, yeah, you're going to. And I just want to say, as far as you mentioned lyrics, that is one of my favorite lyrics. But that's part two to Sunshower was the prequel to Sunshine. So if you ever get a chance to check out Sunshower, start us off with, trouble follows a wicked mind. 2020 vision of the prism of life, but still blind because you lack the inner. So every sinner could end up in the everlasting winter of hellfire. But thorns and splinters prick your eye out. You cry out. Your words fly out. You remain unheard. Suffering internal and external, along with the wicked fraternal of genitals and kernels, letting off thermal nuclear heat that burns you firmly and permanently upon the journey through the journal of the book of life. For those who took a life without justice will become just ice. It's been taught your worst enemy couldn't harm you as much as your own wicked thoughts. But people ought to be not unless in war. So they find themselves persecuted inside their own universal court. So it's a long one. It's like a three pager. Wow, that is about life. That's like character integrity, how to be in this world. And that ultimately connects to God. Yeah. Who's God to you? I'm glad you just asked that question because I actually, I'm going to have to make a distinguishable separation here. All right. And it's funny because I heard recently, I heard a rabbi was debating with this historian, Dr. Ben. I can't pronounce Dr. Ben name, but it was debating. And in the debate, they started going back through the etymology. They went way back beyond antiquity because they was debating. And so there was some things that was going deep. And they really went far, far back to kind of the first word of God. And when they pronounced it on this particular debate, it was Allah. And they said from that, they got Elohim. I've already agreed in my heart and my life that the father of this universe, proper name is Allah. And of course, in Allah, I get all. And I don't think that God is the same as that. I think Allah gives birth to God. In fact, if you take the word Allah, A L L A H, and you take it through numerology or numbers, the number letter A being 1, L being 12, and you add it all up to the last denominator, you're going to get the number 7. And the number 7 is going to bring you right back to that letter G. So Allah borns God, but God don't born Allah. How does that guy, how does Allah, connect to the oracle that you're going to be calling for when you're laying in the hospital? Well, what I was saying in that particular verse was that we're looking for the oracle. We're looking for somebody else or something to help us that nobody can really help you at the end of the day. So now that we, I don't want to say we're speaking on religion, but we're speaking on a way of life and a way of thinking. And I've read many books, of course. And I could say there's no book that my, the book that is the most strongest book I've ever read is actually the Holy Quran. It's stronger to me than the Bible, which I've read. It's stronger than quantum physics, which I've read. It's stronger than the Bhagavad Gita. It's just, and I read once a British scholar said it's the most stupidest book ever written. And it doesn't make sense. And so I said, oh, I see why he says that. I understand exactly why he said that as well. Why is that? Because the structure of the words are just, it's peculiar. You know what I mean? But it's almost like how some people's songs, you don't really know exactly what they say until years later. Yeah, you have, actually with Joe Rogan, I think you talked about how a joke of Dave Chappelle's hit you like a long time after this. So this is kind of like the Quran. I tend to believe that we human beings cannot possibly understand anything as big as these ideas. So just, I don't know. Did you think that, like are you humble in the face of just the immensity of it? To be honest, yes. I'm humble in the face of the, if you could say the word again, I pronounce words funny. The omnipotence, the omnescence, the magnitude, I'm humble in the face of Allah. The problem that I may have had was that I wasn't humble in the face of God because it's just a definable thing. And that's why I think a lot of us, and I'm not saying that, you know, I know when we say God we're trying to say Allah. Like people are saying that, but you're actually not saying the same thing because you're actually putting something beside him. And that's the reason why you can have as many gods. You can find a whole bunch of them, you know what I mean? But you're not going to find many. There's no body beside Allah. Allah is one. So I know it's a whole thing, but that's my heart is there. I'm humbled by it. I'm at peace with it. And it doesn't take nothing or demerit anything from myself. That's the beauty of it. It doesn't take nothing from me from being who I feel. So if I say, if somebody woke up, yo, peace, God. I could take that because they're telling me that, yo, I'm a man of wisdom. I'm a man of strength. I'm a man of beauty. Or some attribute of that, you know what I mean? So Wu Tang, they the gods of rap. There's wisdom there. There's strength there. There's beauty. They will take that. Yeah. So Wu Tang is one of the greatest musical, artistic, philosophical groups ever. Let's look hundreds of years from now when humans or robots or aliens or whatever that's left here, they look back. What do you hope they remember about Wu Tang? What do you hope the legacy is? Well, even if it's thousands of years, I hope we don't get rid of the humans. But you know, look, whatever happens is going to happen. But I think that my philosophy on it is that we're going to continue to advance and continue to advance things around us. But I don't see us becoming extinct. Well, I mean, the reason I bring up Wu Tang in that context, and this is a special moment in human history. It's like 100 years, and we've created all of this music. Just if you think of all the richness of music that's been created over 100 years, it's not obvious to me that that's not going to stop. There's a flourishing here. So it's funny because I could see where the book of human history is written. There's a chapter on this period of time. And one of the things we did well is all the technological innovation with the rockets and with the internet. But then there's also the musical innovation and film innovation. Just so much art that's being created. And Wu Tang's a huge part of that. So I just wonder if there's a few sentences written about Wu Tang, it just makes me wonder how they remember. I would hope that people, no matter how many years, are inspired by us. But I will say, if I could just use Wu Tang as itself. So we first started off the witty, unpredictable talent and natural game. Natural game meaning natural wordplay. And then we went to the wisdom of the universe, the truth of Allah for a nation of God. Wisdom, universal, truth, Allah, nation, God. So let's just go back to a nation of God. Let's just take the last two letters. A nation of wisdom, strength, and beauty. And I'm going a little political here, but not going political. As we'll say, we're the greatest country in the world. What makes us the greatest? That should be a question we ask. Is it our wisdom? Is it our strength? Is it our beauty? Now, let's just say, off the easiest answer, you know it's our strength. We got the nukes. Nobody can really, between America and Russia, they say, that's the argument. Who could beat them? But where's the wisdom? Then they can argue, well, we got the technology. But then where's the beauty when there's so much suffering in the people? So it's not complete. The hope is that the wisdom is in the founding documents, in the imperfect but wise founding documents that celebrated freedom, that celebrated all the ideas, sort of having a lot of nukes, having a lot of airplanes and tanks. That's not important. And the hope is whatever we're doing here with this, quote, greatest country on Earth, that we preserve the ideas and help them flourish, just like you said. Well, that's what I mean. So if you go back to the Wu Tang, that's what we're striving for. We're striving for that. But you started unpredictable and just like, yeah. But got deep pretty quick. I got to talk to you about Bruce Lee. Who's Bruce Lee to you? Who is he to the world? What ideas of his were interesting to you? You talk about Hendrix and music. Bruce Lee is that in martial arts. He just seems to have changed the game. I don't know if the word bold is the right word to say, but I wouldn't as bold as to say that he was a minor prophet. And I got that concept from the Holy Quran where it says that we send prophets to every nation, every village. We don't let nobody not hear the word in some form because it won't be fair. And so if a law is merciful, even a man who's deaf has to somehow get a sign. I don't know if Moses saw a burning bush. There was nobody else to talk to, so he had to talk to the bush. I don't know. It could have been the bush this way too, right? But point being made, it says that they are minor prophets. And I see Bruce Lee as one of them because what he brought to the world through martial art was a whole shift in the dynamic of thinking. And that happens when certain entities are born. But he didn't do it only in a physical sense. He was also for the philosophizing in the same process. And he was also striving to be the best of himself. So you got three things going on. I studied Bruce Lee multiple times. And first, of course, when I saw my first Kung Fu movie, it wasn't really Bruce Lee. It was a few Green Hornet clips cut together. And then I saw Black Samurai. Then my following Kung Fu movies was like Fearless Fighters, the Ghostly Face, the Fist of Double K. But basically, in Fearless Fighters, the lady put the little kid on her back and flew across the ocean, across the lake, right? So Bruce wasn't doing that. And then I went on to Five Deadly Venoms, and Spearman, and 36 Chambers. And these movies are beautiful, and yet they're all heightened. Bruce, they're heightened beyond doable. You're not going to. Yeah, it's surreal. They play with the world that's not of this world. Yeah. Bruce played with this world. So when I first saw Bruce, I actually didn't think he was as good as these guys. He can't fly. He's not flying in the movies, right? But then when I saw, because the first one I saw was The Big Boss, which they retitled Fist of Fury. But then when I saw Chinese Connection, which is the real Fist of Fury, right? I saw something different there. And I got enamored. And then, of course, Enter the Dragon, right? Just really complete. That's why my first album was Enter the Wu Tang, 36 Chambers of Shaolin. So it's Enter the Dragon and 36 put together, because those are the two epitomes. So what happened is that's young me. Then teenage me studies him again. And I realized, wow, look at his physicality. Look how he's really moving for real. And then I studied him again. Wow, look at what he's saying. Then I studied him again. Wow, look at what he stands for. Which do you like in the realm of martial arts, the real or the surreal, or the dance between the two? Yeah, I like the dance between the two, because a movie, to me, is to entertain you. So I'm cool with Obi Wan Kenobi disappearing out of the cloak when Vader strikes him down. And then I'm like, yo, what happened? And he's like, run, Luke, run. I'm cool with that, right? Because that's the imagination. And the imagination gets stimulated to the point to where as things that we saw imagined by an artist, we strive to create in our real world. Thus, Star Trek, to me, is just a precursor to our cell phones. So for me, I like to mix the two. Yeah, it's funny how science fiction pushing into the impossible actually makes it realize eventually. We humans, once we see an idea on screen, no matter how wild it is, we're trying to make it. Yeah, we're trying to make it. Some weird young kid, he gets inspired and watch that. Be like, I'm going to build that. Exactly. So I don't know who's going to come with the Back to the Future time machine. But do you have any classmates that you think this is going to be a time machine? I thought you were going to Back to the Future, like the, what is it, the hoverboard? Or like the, uh? Yeah, at least. Somebody, they got, you see the one on the water? No. No, you know the surf hover? It's dope. Nice. It's dope. It actually, if you are a Back to the Future fan, you feel like you made it to, you made it there. Yeah. Well, now we just got to work on the time trial. And it was cool to hear you talk about the Master of the Flying Gaijin today, that that inspired the lyric for the Wu Tang client, Nothing to F with. Yeah. How does that go again? What, the curse word or the lyric? Nothing. OK. No, I remember the curse. I am Russian, but the lyric. I said, I be tossing and forcing. My style is awesome. I'm causing more family feuds than Richard Dawson. And the survey said, you're dead. The fatal flying guillotine chops off your head. Yeah. Yeah. And it was interesting to see the guillotine in the movie today, how, I don't know. That's surreal, right? But it's not. It's like, it's engineering. It's both surreal and it just, and it adds this chaos into this real world that, and then challenges everybody to think what you're going to do with that. Yeah. How are you going to beat it? Yeah. How are you going to beat it? Both when you have like the good and the evil and the mix of the bad guys and good guys and you're not sure who the bad guys are. It's the old question of good versus evil, right? Yeah. Like you said, then the question of who was good, who was evil. But they all had a similar problem when the guillotine came. But in terms of the real, you mentioned The Godfather, good and evil. That's your favorite movie. Yeah. What makes it great, do you think? The characters, the study of family, of justice, of power. What connects with you? Oh, oh, I mean, every one of those themes connects in the real and it connects in a cinematic way as well. The difference, I think, with me and The Godfather was I've seen it during a period of time when my father was absent. And therefore, family structure and family values was actually adopted in my family because of that. Me and my brother Devon, we actually took so much heed to that movie and our family life. And we kind of mimic that family in its structure of somebody has to be the leader of the family, even if it was the younger. Michael was younger than Sonny and Fragile. You know what I mean? But he was worthy. And my brother Devon is older than me. My brother King is older than me. And it's funny, sometimes Devon calls King Fragile. And I know King wants to. King was actually, he actually was, he said he could beat our ass, to use my language. But you're Michael. Yeah. And not by choice, just by definition of that's what I am. You know what I mean? And it's just a blessing for me to have my older sister, my older brothers, and my younger brothers look to me as, just as a good light in the family. And like I said, that movie helped us. My sisters, too, we, the cool thing about my family, I don't know if I share this a lot, it's a big, we all watched these movies together. And so the A Diagram, Pole Fighter, Master Killer, Five Deadly Venoms, my family knows these movies. It's not just I know them. And then you extend it further, my friends know them, too. So there's a language that we all can have that actually film has informed our communication. So The Godfather, which also is still a fictitional story of something, but since it was based in reality, based on something real, and it was human, it wasn't so heightened, I think the purity of it resonates. And the purity of it is something that resonates with me. You got to plan ahead. He didn't want to deal with the drugs, but that time of business was upon him. It's like, it's almost like, this is a tough one, like sometimes when the Muslim brothers come from the Middle East to America and they open up delis, they would sell ham. And we would go in there and complain to them, and make them like, they used to get mad at us when we came in. But that's as a kid. But as a man, I'm like, yo, he's here to sell. Now, he still don't have to sell to him. Vito Corleone didn't want to sell the drugs. He didn't have to do it. He didn't do it. And it cost him some bullets to eventually, somebody in the family ended up doing it. What about this idea that it's family before everything else? So there's different laws you live according to in this world, and family is first. Yeah. That's mathematically correct. I like that. I mean, there's a certain sense of you look at powerful people. You look at Putin. There's a certain sense in which the people who are in the inner circle, that's who you take care of. That's family. And anyone else that crosses you, that there's a different set of ethics under which you operate for those people. Well, Jesus said the same thing. When he said, love thy neighbor and thy brother, he was talking about that community. When that other lady, the Samaritan, say, hey, Jesus, my brother not feeling so well, and he said, give not that which is holy unto the dogs. If you're going to tell a woman, give not that which is holy unto the dogs. And she's a woman. He just called her a dog. If I translate that into hip hop, she's a female. He called her a dog. I know how that goes. But she said to him, but even a dog is allowed to eat the crumbs that falls from the master's table. And he went and helped. He helped her. Now, let's go back to what you just said about Putin or Vito Corleone or myself and my family. Of course, the family is first. But once the family is good, it has to then spread to the community, then to the state, country, world. The problem we have sometimes is that, and this is the reason why a lot of powerful families was overthrown, like why do they behead their own king with the guillotine, right? Because once the family was strong, they didn't let the wealth, the opportunity expand out. You look at Wu Tang, yes, our family was made strong first. But then all the Wu members were able to form their own corporations. And they had their own subfamilies. It has to grow out. And they took over the world. You've talked about being vegan. I don't think I heard you explain this, because it connects somehow about how you think about life. So you talk about when your family's good, you grow that circle of empathy. You grow the community. Is that how you think about being vegan, that just the capacity of living beings on Earth to suffer, that you just don't want to add suffering to them? Yeah, I mean, you said it clear. It's like nothing, in all reality, I came to a realization that nothing really has to die for me to live. No animal. The plants themselves, right? So let's just say you want a steak, which is probably the most, I don't know, the most expensive piece of meat. But let's just say the steak is top of the line, nice steak. And you're eating the steak for the protein to help build your muscle. And I don't know if you got it from a cow or a bull, but whether it's a cow or a bull, they grow to about 1,500 pounds. And if it's a bull, it's all muscly muscle. And it's only eating grass. Yeah. Yeah, it's possible to, both as an athlete and just as a human being, to perform well without eating meat. That's something, especially in the way we're treating animals, to deliver that meat to the plate. I think about that a lot. So I do, I'm a robotics person, AI person. And I think a lot about, I don't know if you think about this kind of stuff, but building AI systems as they become more and more humanlike, you start to ask the question of, are we okay? If we give the capacity for AI systems to suffer, first to feel, but then to suffer, to hate and to love, to feel emotion, how do we deal with that? It starts asking the same question as you ask of animals. Are we okay adding that suffering to the world? Right. And I don't think we should add the suffering because it's not necessary. Like, look, if it's necessary, right, because we're survival or the first law of nature, self preservation, if you are in a desert and there's nothing else to eat, but that lizard, yeah, okay, you gotta do what you gotta do. Lizard's gotta go. Yeah, you gotta go, you gotta do what you gotta do. Because at the end of the day, man is, when they say man has dominion over these things, his dominion is almost like a caretaker. The way we do our dominion, we dominate it, eat it, cook it. Like who's the first guy that looked at the lobster? He was like, I'm gonna eat this thing. Like, first of all, it's hard to eat it. You gotta go through a process to get that. A crab, I remember we used to eat crabs when we was kids and I didn't know why I was always getting itchy throats and all that, you know, you don't know, just eat. But at the end of the day, a crab didn't provide no more than a finger worth of meat maybe. And it was hell getting that thing, getting it out. It's like, it's not worth it in all reality. You could have gave me a banana and did better for my body and my appetite and my being fulfilled as full. Like, look at the blessings of life, right? If you take a seed or you get an apple and you eat it, in that apple is multiple seeds in it. If you plant that seed, it'll give you a whole tree with a whole bunch of apples with all multiple seeds. But if you kill a fish, it can't reproduce, it's done. If you kill a, it's done, it's nothing coming back. But when you deal with the plants, even after you eat the apple and then you defecate, your defecation is what feeds the ground to cause the apple to grow more. Yeah, it's a circle of life. And especially there's a guy named David Foster Wallace, he wrote a short story called Consider the Lobster. If you actually think philosophically about what, from a perspective of a lobster, that's like symbolic of something because you're basically put in the water, like cold water, and then it heats up slowly until it's no more. It's torture, yeah, it must have been like, do you think they started eating lobsters in the Inquisition? Yeah, they just enjoy, they would probably enjoy torturing animals and they realize they're also delicious after the torture is finished, that's probably how they discovered it. Let me ask you a question, I know you're asking me the questions, but I just wanna talk a little bit about the AI, and you said something about trying to

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