第 421 期·中文精讀
達納·懷特：UFC、格鬥、哈比布、康納、泰森、阿里、羅根、馬斯克與扎克伯格
Dana White: UFC, Fighting, Khabib, Conor, Tyson, Ali, Rogan, Elon & Zuck
UFC 總裁達納·懷特回顧綜合格鬥的發展歷程，講述哈比布、康納、泰森等拳手往事與名人跨界格鬥的設想。
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中文精讀由 AI 基於原始訪談改寫，非官方翻譯，可能存在偏差或錯誤；表述以原音訊與官方文稿為準。說明
世界上權力最大的一批人，有不少都痴迷於看兩個人打架。
達納·懷特（Dana White）坐在辦公室裡，隨手就能報出一串名字：特朗普當總統時、卸任後，都盯著每一場比賽，看完還要打電話過來討論。哈比布（Khabib）擊敗康納（Conor）那晚，普京在他走進更衣室之前就打來了 FaceTime。瓦倫蒂娜·舍甫琴科每次回國，都要和本國總統見面。馬斯克、扎克伯格，名單還在往下延。
“全球最有權勢的人，全都對格鬥著迷。”（達納·懷特）
這話聽起來像自我吹噓，但他給出的解釋很樸素：格鬥寫在人的 DNA 裡。不管你來自哪個國家、說什麼語言，街邊突然有人打起來，所有人的眼睛都會轉過去。他自己在墨西哥辦賽時就幹過這事，場邊貴賓席有人打起來了，保安遲遲不到，他乾脆從自己的桌子後面站起來，走過去看這場“賽中之賽”。
這場對話從他人生中第一場比賽講起，一直聊到 UFC 怎麼從一家快倒閉的公司，變成一項全球運動。
祖母家的客廳，和一屋子發瘋的叔叔
懷特記得的第一場比賽，是在祖母家看的阿里（Muhammad Ali）。一屋子叔叔圍著電視又叫又跳，那種能量感讓他一個小孩子都覺得興奮。他說自己很確定，那就是他看的第一場格鬥。
聊到阿里，他沒有把話題停在拳擊技術上。
“我會把阿里評為史上最偉大的人，而不只是最偉大的拳手。作為一個拳迷，你很容易只盯著他的拳頭。可當你把他當作一個人來看，想想他在那個年代、那個處境下說過的話、寫過的詩，那種整體的光芒。他有那個膽量，在那個時候逆著潮流走。對他而言，做自己是件很危險的事。”（達納·懷特）
他補了一句：你哪怕全球最種族主義的人，只要和阿里坐在同一個房間裡，也很難不喜歡他。
真正讓懷特愛上拳擊這項運動的，是 1987 年那場哈格勒對倫納德（Hagler vs Leonard）。他當年 17 歲，把錄影帶錄下來看了無數遍。他是哈格勒的鐵桿粉絲，覺得哈格勒被裁判偷走了勝利，氣得不行。就是這股氣，讓他開始認真研究拳擊。
之後美國電視臺每週二晚有《週二之夜拳賽》（Tuesday Night Fights），他一期不落。多年後 UFC 裡的很多東西，不只是製作，還有那種氛圍、風格，都來自他當年對拳擊的愛，以及他對拳擊的恨。
他恨透了 HBO 的解說，於是自己造了一套
訪談裡有個很好玩的段落。懷特讓工作人員把手機拿過來，開啟 YouTube，現場給主持人放了一段泰森（Mike Tyson）出場的舊影片。泰森伴隨著 DMX 的音樂走向擂臺，那是史上最狠的出場之一。結果 HBO 的解說員在旁邊一路潑冷水：
“他今晚能嚇住對手嗎？這真的有意義嗎？就算贏了，只要贏得不夠壓倒性，那些批評者依然會跟著他。和霍利菲爾德的兩場之後，他的身價暴跌，評論員們覺得自己被騙了，覺得他的 KO 都是打二三流拳手刷出來的。”（HBO 舊比賽解說片段）
懷特邊放邊罵。他的邏輯是：你花錢買了付費點播，就為了看你崇拜的拳手，結果整場比賽聽這些人在旁邊拆臺。
“你花錢進場看泰森，結果從頭到尾聽這幫混蛋說他壞話。首先，那是史上最酷的出場之一，那是所有人第一次聽到 DMX。”（達納·懷特）
他說自己年輕時就這樣，會逐幀分析電視上的每一處製作細節，雖然當時根本不知道為什麼要這麼做。後來他做 UFC，標準就一條：不用僱傭來的“嘴”，只用真正下過場的人。喬·羅根（Joe Rogan）練過、打過，對這項運動有極大的尊重。丹尼爾·科米爾（Daniel Cormier）自己是前世界冠軍，真經歷過這一切。這兩個人坐在解說席上，觀眾能感覺到他們是真的愛這項運動，而不是拿錢來點評。
反過來，他提到當年 HBO 的拉里·默錢特（Larry Merchant），說有一次默錢特在採訪裡和梅威瑟（Floyd Mayweather）當場吵起來，還放話“我要是年輕 30 歲，現在就揍你”。懷特的原話是：我們看一場拳賽，就得聽這種採訪？
他甚至說，如果當年 HBO 沒把泰森那場出場搞成那樣，UFC 可能都不會是今天這個樣子。這話有玩笑成分，但邏輯成立：正是那些讓他憤怒的細節，塑造了他後來做產品的標準。
200 萬美元，買下一家沒人要的公司
UFC 起源故事的關鍵人物是約翰·劉易斯（John Lewis）。有天晚上懷特和弗蘭克·費爾蒂塔（Frank Fertitta）在 Hard Rock 碰到劉易斯，弗蘭克說一直想學地面技術，於是約了週一去練。洛倫佐·費爾蒂塔（Lorenzo Fertitta）也跟著去了。這就是“終結的開始”，他們開始練柔術，開始認識大量拳手。
當時的輿論環境對這項運動極其不友好。外界覺得這些打拳的都是些卑劣的人，事實完全相反：大部分拳手讀過大學，很多人因為大學摔跤拿的學位。查克·利德爾（Chuck Liddell）留著莫霍克髮型，看著像斧頭殺人犯，實際是加州理工州立大學會計專業榮譽畢業生。馬特·休斯（Matt Hughes）是個真正的農場男孩。這些人的故事和外界想象完全對不上。
轉折點是一場合同談判。懷特當時在跟 UFC 的老老闆鮑勃·梅羅維茨（Bob Meyrowitz）談蒂託（Tito）和查克·利德爾的合同，對方連利德爾都不想要。談著談著，梅羅維茨情緒失控，說公司沒錢了，不知道還能不能再辦一場比賽。
掛了電話，懷特立刻打給洛倫佐：我覺得他們出問題了，我們可能買得下來，應該買。洛倫佐聯絡了梅羅維茨。兩個月內，他們以 200 萬美元拿下了 UFC。
“費爾蒂塔兄弟投了 200 萬，後來又投了 4400 萬。你看看這筆投資在過去 25 年裡改變了多少人的生活。”（達納·懷特）
第一次上柔術墊，像吞了紅藥丸
訪談裡懷特講了自己第一次練柔術的感受，這段是全場最有畫面感的部分之一。
他和洛倫佐、弗蘭克一起跟約翰·劉易斯上課。第一次被人按在地上控制住，他腦子裡只有一個念頭：我都 28 歲了，居然是第一次知道，另一個人可以在地面上這樣對我。
“第一次練柔術，就像《駭客帝國》裡的紅藥丸和藍藥丸。你是想繼續相信你原來以為的那個世界，還是想看看真實的世界長什麼樣？”（達納·懷特）
他的形容是：被徹底支配，對方像對待一個小孩一樣對待你。之後他們一週練三四天，幾個人互相“往死里弄”，就是這麼愛上這項運動的。
他還講了一個細節。弗蘭克·沙姆羅克（Frank Shamrock）有一次把他壓在側壓位，胸口的壓力讓他直接認輸。那種感覺像胸口壓了一輛車，而對方完全沒費力氣。他說，和一個水平遠高於你的人對練，是最讓人謙卑、最顛覆認知的體驗，對一個男人尤其如此。
他承認自己早期有個還不錯的小腿絞（guillotine），也習慣待在下面。但他不喜歡道服（gi）：穿上道服還能抓東西，一脫道服就覺得自己什麼降服技都沒有了。從那以後他只練無道服（no gi）。
話題延伸到女子防身。他說如果要把女兒送去學一門武術，答案百分之百是柔術，再加一點泰拳。
“柔術最大的賣點是什麼？一個女人，不管高矮胖瘦，都能在三分半鐘內把一個男人勒睡過去。”（達納·懷特）
狂野西部：有人每天發簡訊說要殺他
買下公司只是開始，接下來七八年是真正的混亂期。懷特的原話是“每天在跟各種人打仗”。
他提到，綜合格鬥推廣人這個圈子裡傳統上就有很多不乾淨的人。他講了荷蘭或阿姆斯特丹的一個例子：那邊的推廣人之間互相汽車炸彈，另一夥人用機槍掃射對方房子。
還有一個他自己經歷過的：一家叫 Affliction 的服裝品牌進軍綜合格鬥，其中一個股東（他記得叫託德·比爾德，Todd Beard）每天給他發簡訊，說要殺了他。“你個混蛋，我要弄死你，你不知道我是誰、我幹過什麼。”懷特說他每晚大概是喝多了或者嗑了，天天打電話、發簡訊威脅他的命。懷特的回應是：滾你媽的。
付費點播渠道那邊也不乾淨。他提到 In Demand 當時基本是壟斷，負責的人“不是好人”。後來這個人跑去管 DirecTV，而 UFC 和 DirecTV 一直關係不錯，正是因為這個人，他們最終離開 DirecTV，轉向了流媒體。
還有一次製作團隊的衝突。當時他們沿用了收購前的製作班底。有場比賽前，他們採訪了菲爾·巴羅尼（Phil Baroni），巴羅尼在採訪裡突然爆發，懷特覺得太棒了，要求把這段保留、剪進去。製作團隊反對，說這太不專業。結果當晚比賽開始，他湊到洛倫佐耳邊說“等著看這段採訪”，播出來根本沒有。懷特直接起身，衝到轉播車，一腳踹開門，對著裡面的人說：你們再敢這樣，我把你們全開了。最後他還是把這批人全換了。
這些故事說明一件事：在一個沒有規則的行業裡，創始人必須親自下場打每一場仗，包括和轉播車司機的那種。
他成功的秘密，說出來只有兩個詞
被問到為什麼那麼多格鬥推廣公司都失敗了，只有他成功了，懷特的答案很直接：熱情和堅持。
“2016 年我們賣掉公司，很多人賺了一大筆就退休了。除了費爾蒂塔兄弟，我是賺得最多的那個。我還在這兒。我每天早上 9 點半到，昨晚 8 點半才走。”（達納·懷特）
他說自己現在和當年一樣拼。區別只是：現在他不用再參加預算會議了。
當年那些預算會議是噩夢。公司一年虧幾百萬美元，他坐在會議室裡一行一行過數字，錢花到哪去了、哪裡能省、哪裡能做得更好，一週好幾次，極其殘酷。也正是這些會議，讓他對成本有刻骨的認知。
他對想創業的人有一段很衝的話：如果你想著“我要為自己工作、我要自己安排時間”，那你永遠不會成功。早期你必須關注每一個細節，沒有休息日，沒有生日，沒有聖誕節。他第二個兒子出生時，為了不撞上一場查克·利德爾的比賽，他讓醫生提前做了剖腹產。
“全押上了。”（達納·懷特）
他說自己破產的時候在幹這行，不破產的時候還在幹這行，原因只有一個：他真的愛這件事。現在要辦拉斯維加斯 Sphere 的比賽，成本高、難度大，很多人覺得根本做不成。他偏要做。
“為什麼？因為它牛逼，因為它難，因為它有挑戰。如果這件事有人能做成，那就是我們。那為什麼不接？”（達納·懷特）
Sphere 那場比賽定在墨西哥獨立日，要把墨西哥格鬥史整個編織進這場賽事。八角籠背後是全世界最大的螢幕，拍攝成本極高，格式、角度全是新問題。他的原話是：這場要解的謎題很多。有些是商業上的，有些是創意的，他暫時不公開具體目標。
Joe Rogan 白乾了 13 場，只因為那是“全場最好的座位”
聊到羅根，懷特先給了一個事實：羅根為 UFC 免費解說了前 13 場。
“他說，等一下，你讓我去解說？你是說我能坐在全場最好的位置免費看比賽？行，我來。”（達納·懷特）
後來公司好轉，他們把這些補給了羅根。但懷特講這個故事的重點不在錢，而在他怎麼發現羅根的。
收購 UFC 後，公司從紐約搬到拉斯維加斯。他飛到紐約辦公室清理資料，屋裡有一臺 VHS 錄影機和堆積如山的錄影帶。他只能一盤一盤看。其中一盤是“象牙·基南·韋恩斯秀”（Ivory Keenen Wayans Show，韋恩斯家的大哥），那期嘉賓是《恐懼元素》（Fear Factor）的主持人羅根。羅根上節目宣傳《恐懼元素》，卻全程只聊 UFC，說人們以為功夫片裡的演員很能打，真讓 UFC 選手抓住會怎樣怎樣。
懷特當場認定：這就是我要的人。不怕說真話、懂這項運動、而且是真的熱愛。
早期沒有媒體願意報道 UFC，懷特只能花錢買電臺時段。他安排“電臺巡演”，把拳手丟進各個市場的早間節目。拉斯維加斯凌晨 3 點半起床，對應紐約、波士頓、佛羅里達早上 6 點半的檔期。拳手們表現極差：困、沒精神、明顯不想說話。電臺節目最怕的就是這個。
能撐起這些電臺巡演的只有兩個人：懷特自己和羅根。兩人輪流飛遍全美。
羅根還有另一個貢獻，懷特講得很細：早期沒人看得懂地面技術，羅根能在動作發生之前就把接下來的走向講清楚，把鋪墊、下一步、所有細節拆解得明明白白。觀眾在家慢慢就看懂了。
“羅根對這項運動的影響，無法估量。他是全球最大的播客，一年 14 次出現在 UFC 付費點播的解說席上，而且他一直在聊這項運動。”（達納·懷特）
訪談裡主持人提到一件事：羅根某次被輿論圍攻，有人不想讓他繼續解說，懷特在電話裡提出，如果羅根不能留下，那他自己辭職。主持人說聽到這件事時眼眶溼了。
懷特的回應很乾脆：
“跟我站在一起的人都知道。你跟我站一起，我就跟你站一起。這是雙向的，不是單向的。疫情的時候，我手底下有些人跟了我 20 年，我一家都沒裁。要裁他們，先讓這公司燒掉。”（達納·懷特）
兩個性格相反的人，湊成了最好的合夥人
聊到洛倫佐·費爾蒂塔，懷特的評價是：我們倆能配合，是因為性格完全相反。
他自己是那種情緒永遠在波峰波谷的人，洛倫佐是那種你走進房間告訴他“你剛虧了 1000 萬”或者“你剛賺了 1000 萬”，表情都不變的人。
“我們幾乎互相平衡。他擅長的很多東西，和我擅長的東西，正好在光譜的兩端。”（達納·懷特）
這種平衡在 UFC 早期虧錢、生死未卜的時候價值巨大。還有一個運氣成分：當年拉斯維加斯的賭場生意正火，Station Casinos 賺得盆滿缽滿，是賭場的錢在養 UFC。到了 2008、2009 年金融危機，反過來了：UFC 在 08、09 年爆發，賭場生意受重創。時間點卡得不能更好。
傳奇是怎麼被製造出來的
主持人提到懷特在 UFC 299 賽後釋出會上說過的一段話：拳手常抱怨配對不公平、賠率不利，但傳奇恰恰是在這種時候誕生的。他舉了達斯汀·普瓦里耶（Dustin Poirier）的例子。
懷特的回答先講了他對自身角色的定位：
“我們不決定誰贏誰輸。如果我們決定，那就成 WWE 了。是你（拳手）決定的。我是負責花裡胡哨那部分的人：我確保儘可能多的人知道你在週六打比賽，你是誰，你跟誰打，以及別人為什麼要關心。”（達納·懷特）
比賽夜，他把直播節目做到最好，把現場做到最好。八角籠的門一關，剩下全是拳手的事。
問題出在偏執。拳手是一群非常多疑的人，總覺得自己被針對。一旦這種偏執發展到“我要避開某些比賽”，公司就開始被拳手綁架。懷特說，別的組織就是這樣，拳手不想打，公司就不推。
UFC 的做法相反：安排能安排的最好對陣。你可能是老將，但只要還在前十，就有年輕的殺手衝著你來。普瓦里耶對聖丹尼斯（Benoît Saint Denis）那場，外界一致覺得普瓦里耶要完。結果普瓦里耶打出了那樣的表現。
“這就是造傳奇的方式。”（達納·懷特）
他舉了一串例子：伊斯雷爾·阿德薩尼亞（Israel Adesanya）對肖恩·斯特里克蘭（Sean Strickland），百分之百的人都認定阿德薩尼亞贏，結果斯特里克蘭爆冷。康納對奧爾多（José Aldo），賽前所有人說他不會摔、防不住抱摔。康納對哈比布，他是劣勢方，但如果贏了，關於“史上最偉大”的討論就沒有爭議了。
關於康納對哈比布那場的宣傳片，懷特說他當時被罵得很慘。片子裡有大巴車那一段，媒體說他是在迎合暴力、消費衝突。他的回應是：我在講故事，講我們是怎麼走到這一步的，講這兩個人之間的血仇有多深。他認為 UFC 最擅長的就是這件事，講清楚“為什麼”。
他描述了 UFC 的一週節奏：週一進入比賽周，一系列固定動作，週四釋出會，週五稱重，週六比賽。週日他的團隊飛回家睡覺，週一一切重來。一年五十二個週六，週而復始。而在週六晚上，任何能搶走你注意力的東西，都是他的競爭對手。
史上最偉大：Jon Jones，沒有討論空間
被問到 GOAT（史上最偉大）的候選，懷特的答案沒有任何猶豫：喬恩·瓊斯（Jon Jones）。
他的論證有三層。
第一，沒輸過。瓊斯在輕重量級摧毀了所有人，而當時的輕重量級是公司、也是這項運動裡最難的量級。之後升到重量級，輕鬆奪冠。
第二，如果你把八角籠外發生的事也算進來（懷特說本來不該算），結論只會更沒爭議。
“沒人能爭論誰是史上最偉大。絕對、肯定、百分之百是喬恩·瓊斯。他從沒輸過，他在八角籠裡從沒被擊敗過。”（達納·懷特）
第三層論證更有意思：統治力有兩種，一種是碾壓，另一種是被拖進深水區還能贏。懷特說，他對瓊斯的看法真正改變，是古斯塔夫松（Alexander Gustafsson）那場。古斯塔夫松打中了瓊斯從來沒被打中的東西，把瓊斯拖進了深水區。懷特的原話是：如果你去採訪瓊斯，問那場打到後面回合時他在想什麼，他當時大概覺得自己要死了。
“但他繼續往前。他願意做任何事來贏下那場比賽。”（達納·懷特）
他也為丹尼爾·科米爾（DC）抱不平，認為 DC 因為和瓊斯同處一個時代，沒有得到應有的評價。瓊斯贏了他兩次，這件事沒法辯。
關於哈比布，懷特的評價是：他有潛力進入 GOAT 討論，但他沒待夠。哈比布早期傷病太多，本來應該更早到達巔峰。不過毫無疑問，他是史上最偉大的選手之一。
康納唯一的缺點：不準時
被問到和康納關係裡的“好、壞、醜”，懷特的回答出人意料地乾淨。
“真的沒有‘醜’。康納·麥格雷戈是一個不可思議的合作伙伴。如果康納能準時出現，我對他一個字的壞話都說不出來。”（達納·懷特）
他說，就算拿槍頂著他腦袋讓他說康納的缺點，答案也只有一條：這人遲到。有時候不遲到。
他講了兩件康納從沒幹過的事。
第一，從沒拒絕過臨陣換人。奧爾多退賽那次，他們半夜去康納在拉斯維加斯租的房子，康納剛睡醒，穿著內褲聽他們講情況，只回了一句：我去訓練館，練完告訴我打誰。不問對手是誰，不要更多錢，上場，交付。
第二，從沒在臨陣換人時坐地起價。懷特說有些拳手會在這個節骨眼上說“我可以打，但我要再加 20 萬、再加 100 萬”。康納從來沒幹過這種小雞賊的事。
“康納是我在這項運動史上最好的合作伙伴之一。他從領救濟金的管道工，變成了一個非常聰明的商人。”（達納·懷特）
他還補了一句：康納是 UFC 第一個真正的超級巨星，他點燃了歐洲、澳大利亞、加拿大和世界上很多地方的市場。
特朗普：我見過的心理素質最強的人
聊到特朗普，懷特先給了一個時間線。UFC 剛買下來的時候，這項運動爛到場館都不願意接。他們第一場在亞特蘭大城辦，地點是特朗普泰姬陵。那時候特朗普品牌如日中天，UFC 品牌低到不能再低。特朗普讓他們在自己的場館辦了兩場背靠背，而且每場都從第一場看到最後一場。
之後凡是懷特職業生涯裡的好事，特朗普都會主動聯絡。有一次 UFC 上了《紐約時報》頭版，特朗普打電話來說：恭喜，我一直知道你們能成。
2015、2016 年，特朗普邀請他在共和黨全國代表大會上發言。所有人都勸他別去。他的邏輯很簡單：這個人對我很好，我為什麼不去。
“我把他看作我非常非常好的朋友之一。”（達納·懷特）
他講了幾個細節。特朗普當選後，他在辦公室走廊盡頭的配對室裡，秘書會喊“總統線上上”，他一路小跑過去接電話，特朗普要聊即將到來的比賽或者剛打完的比賽。或者他在車裡接到電話：“您好，這裡是白宮，總統想和您通話。”
關於特朗普的心理素質，懷特給了一個極高的評價，也是全場最私人的一段：
“他是我見過最有韌性的人。你看著他每天在公眾面前經歷那些東西。我以朋友的身份打電話問他，你還好嗎。毫無波瀾。只有一次，我這輩子只見過一次，他狀態很差。伊萬娜去世那天。我聽到訊息就聯絡了他。不管外界怎麼攻擊他、想毀掉他，他都沒被撼動。那天我打過去，是我第一次看到這個人垮掉。”（達納·懷特）
被問到特朗普會不會贏下大選，懷特沒有給預測。他說這要看事情怎麼發展，政治是地球上最髒、最下作的東西，然後補了一句：沒有什麼比政治更髒。
馬斯克對扎克伯格：那場差點成真的比賽
主持人問，馬斯克和扎克伯格那場比賽，真的能成嗎？懷特的回答毫不含糊：會成為史上最大的一場比賽。
“全球最有權勢、最富有的兩個人。很多人打嘴炮、來回互噴、互相起訴。這兩個人是真的在討論進八角籠對打。他們所在的行業被認為很 geeky，是技術宅。結果這兩個人願意脫了衣服幹一場。”（達納·懷特）
他反覆強調，自己是真投了時間，做了測算，手裡有數字，在看場館，電話打到了義大利的鬥獸場。他說這兩個人是認真的，這件事本來真的會發生。在那段短時間裡，他玩得非常開心。
被問到泰森對傑克·保羅（Jake Paul），他的態度是：我愛泰森，我不喜歡任何我們這個年紀的人去打比賽。但他是成年人了，他知道自己在幹什麼。幾天前他和泰森的妻子聊過，泰森這次很認真，在系統訓練。
為什麼泰森還要打？懷特給了一個和多數人不同的解釋。他說泰森是極少數跨界成功的拳手，同年代的其他拳手除了打拳沒有別的賺錢方式，泰森在場外能賺很多錢。他還有那種氣場：你在一家餐廳坐著，泰森走進來，你心裡會想“我操，泰森來了”。所以他總會收到無法拒絕的報價。
順著這個話題，他講了自己對拳手動機的分類：
“為了正確理由進入這行的人，是為了偉大。你想成為最強的那個。當你為了這個理由而戰，你熱愛它，你想被看作史上最強，而且你有天賦，錢自然會來。另一種人只是想出名、想賺錢。這也沒問題，那是你的人生。但被記住的、被愛的是前一種人。”（達納·懷特）
Forrest 和 Stephan：一場免費電視上的比賽，救了一家公司
《終極鬥士》（The Ultimate Fighter）第一季決賽，福雷斯特·格里芬（Forrest Griffin）對斯蒂芬·邦納（Stephan Bonnar）。懷特說，那天晚上整場秀其他地方都是災難。副主賽迭戈·桑切斯（Diego Sanchez）幾秒鐘就解決了肯尼·弗洛裡安（Kenny Florian），之前的比賽也沒什麼可說的。
然後這兩個人上場，在免費電視上打了一場難以置信的對攻戰。懷特說當時他聽到的說法是，觀眾開始拿起電話打給朋友：“你在看這個嗎？”收視數字一路往上爬。最後是分歧判定，全場跺腳，聲音像一列火車穿過場館，所有人喊“再打一回合”。他和費爾蒂塔兄弟當場決定，兩個人都給合同。
“那是在最完美的時間，出現的最完美的一場比賽。所有東西湊到了一起。幾乎像是命中註定。”（達納·懷特）
背景是：那季《終極鬥士》播出中途，Spike TV 的總裁被解僱了。原本承諾的所有推廣資源全部落空，沒有廣告，沒有廣告牌，沒有洛杉磯和紐約的公交車車身廣告。他們連第二季會不會有都不知道。
比賽結束那晚，他們還沒走出場館，Spike 的人就在小巷子裡，在一張餐巾紙上跟他們把合同簽了。
還有個細節：那場比賽的獎品是一輛起亞（Kia）。福雷斯特把那輛車開到了 20 萬英里。懷特說，起亞犯的最大錯誤，就是沒找福雷斯特拍一支廣告。他們主動聯絡過起亞，對方沒理。
為什麼那場比賽重要？懷特給了一個所有人都能理解的定義：
“打到後面回合，疲勞上來，疲勞會讓你開始懷疑自己，讓你想我還能不能撐過這一回合，然後你會想，我現在是不是要死了。這些孩子往深處挖。所有別的東西都飛出窗外，他們進入自動駕駛，只剩下戰鬥和贏。那絕對是你在任何格鬥運動裡能看到的最好的比賽。”（達納·懷特）
主持人接了一句：疲憊讓所有人都變成懦夫。他自己打過很多柔術比賽，知道那種大腦開始找藉口、開始懷疑的感覺。真正英雄式的行為，就是在那個瞬間說一句“去他媽的”，然後繼續往前。
一晚輸掉 300 萬美元，第二天才知道
懷特喜歡賭博，他自己承認得很坦然。最大的贏：有一晚在曼德勒灣贏了一手 100 萬美元的牌；有一個夏天，他從凱撒宮贏了 1200 萬。
最大的輸，故事性更強。
有一晚他在 Rio 的套房裡和朋友吃飯喝酒，然後下樓去高額區玩牌，繼續喝。他記得自己那晚輸了 8 萬美元，回家睡覺。第二天上班，酒店的主機打電話來問還要不要房間。他說不用了，但別對我的 8 萬塊太舒服，我會回來贏回來的。
電話那頭沉默了幾秒，然後說：懷特先生，你昨晚輸了 300 萬美元。
懷特的反應是：你說什麼？我的信用額度只有 150 萬。
對方說：是您叫我們打電話給酒店總經理的，然後您開始罵他是慫包。
懷特的回應：對，這聽起來確實像我會幹的事。
這件事之後，他打牌時再也沒喝過酒。
他對賭博心理有一套自己的框架：他住在拉斯維加斯，所以 2024 年對他而言是一場戰爭。每一次上桌，都是這場戰爭裡的一場小戰役。年底結算所有小戰役，看勝負。
“贏了很棒，輸了一點都不好玩，但這是遊戲的一部分。你想在這個遊戲裡，不管是體育、商業還是什麼，就一定會有贏有輸。你得兩者都承受得住。”（達納·懷特）
他補了一句很硬的話：如果你賭博輸了就陷入深度抑鬱，那賭博不適合你。如果你在社交媒體上被人罵幾句就抑鬱，那你也不該上社交媒體。
他喜歡混亂，甚至吃負面情緒當早餐
訪談裡有一段關於生活哲學的表述，密度很高。
“每天你從床上起來，生活就站在那兒等著踹你的臉。可能是你下樓發現車胎爆了，上班遲到，可能是任何事。生活會把各種瘋狂的東西扔向你，你得準備好，你得處理。你不能縮成一團，不能逃跑，不能躲。你得正面迎上去。”（達納·懷特）
他說自己每天早上起來就像在綁裝備準備上戰場。他知道到了公司會有一堆爛事等著他處理。處理完離開公司，他大機率還要去賭場打另一場仗。
“我在混亂裡如魚得水。我其實喜歡混亂。所有人都在聊退休。退什麼休？我退休了幹什麼？我喜歡打仗，喜歡戰鬥，喜歡贏。有時候輸，但輸了就得從失敗裡爬回來。”（達納·懷特）
他拿 Power Slap 舉例。這個專案被罵得比 UFC 當年還慘。他的說法是：13 個月裡，這是我參與過的最成功的專案。我喜歡它的每一分鐘，尤其是那些負面聲音。我喜歡負面。
主持人說：你幾乎是靠它供能。懷特回：我拿它當早餐吃。
訪談裡還有一個很柔軟的畫面。他說自己每週有三四個晚上會發同一張照片：開車回家，拐上 Summerlin Parkway 那個彎，天已經黑了，
整個拉斯維加斯的燈光在眼前鋪開。他通常是在一個不可思議的一天之後開過那個彎，那一瞬間只有感恩。
“每次拐過那個彎，我都會想，天啊，我愛死這座城市了。每天晚上回家，我都特別開心，特別感激我擁有的這種生活。”（達納·懷特）
改變他一生的那部電影
被問到哪部電影改變了他的人生軌跡，懷特給了一個很多人沒聽過的答案：1985 年的《凌雲壯志》（Vision Quest）。
電影講一個高中裡沒什麼存在感的男孩，不是風雲人物，也不受歡迎。他決定就在這一年留下自己的印記。他本來在 178 磅是個不錯的摔跤手，為了挑戰最可怕的對手，他降重到 160 多磅。
懷特說這部電影裡藏著很多關於生活的隱喻。有一段是課堂上老師講一首詩：一個女孩走過公園，樹葉落下，她意識到自己有一天也會死。很多人以為自己有很多時間，於是揮霍掉，從來沒有去做真正想做的事。
另一段是他打工地方的那個中年男人，一直罵他：你為什麼要這樣折騰自己？把這東西拿起來像個男人一樣吃掉。可當這個男孩練到想放棄的時候，他去找的還是這個人，因為他知道這個人會跟他說真話。
最經典的一段是那個男人講球王貝利：一個人類可以把自己倒過來翻過去，把球踢進網裡，整個體育場為之瘋狂。而我一個人坐在這間破公寓裡，我開始哭。對，我開始哭。
“這部電影在太多層面上跟我對話。你把它真正想說的東西拆開來看，它可能是史上最被低估的電影。它真的跟我說上了話。”（達納·懷特）
他說劇組在拍攝地華盛頓州斯波坎辦過一場三十週年放映，主創到場，他事後才知道，氣壞了。他說如果知道，他三十秒內就會飛過去。
主持人說，這大概是關於一對一對抗的最偉大的電影。懷特同意。主持人還提到，這部電影讓他想練摔跤，可能也是他愛上摔跤的原因。
有意思的是，懷特說自己當年根本不喜歡摔跤，也不需要懂摔跤才能被這部電影擊中。電影打動他的是那個核心故事：一個沒人看得起的普通人，用一年時間把自己逼到極限，去挑戰一個所有人都說不可能贏的對手。這套敘事，後來成了 UFC 宣傳片的基本語法。
他不怕死，甚至不喜歡睡覺
訪談接近尾聲，主持人問：你會想到死亡嗎？
“我不怕死。一點都不怕。我不知道真到了那個時候，躺在醫院的病床上，看著槍口對著自己，還會不會是這樣。”（達納·懷特）
他補了一句更具體的：他連睡覺都不太願意。
“我的生活太他媽好了，晚上都不想上床。我不想睡。我想一直醒著，要是能二十四小時不睡就好了。我就是這麼愛我的生活。”（達納·懷特）
這句話放在一個 54 歲、每天工作到晚上八點半、還要去賭場再打一場仗的人嘴裡，不像雞湯。他前面剛說過，自己每天起床就像在綁裝備準備上戰場，生活隨時會踹你的臉。兩句話放在一起，邏輯是通的：他並不覺得生活輕鬆，他只是真的享受這種強度。
他提到健身房裡牆上貼著的一句臺詞，出自《洛奇 3》：沒有明天（There is no tomorrow）。他的用法很粗暴：別扯那些以後，今天就把所有事幹完。
主持人問他，你會不會規劃退休。他的反應是反問：退休了我幹什麼。他喜歡打仗，喜歡戰鬥，喜歡贏，有時候輸，但輸了就要從失敗裡爬回來。他喜歡建品牌，喜歡設定短期和長期目標，然後一個一個把它們砸倒。這些東西讓他興奮。
他也不全是工作。他說自己喜歡當粉絲，喜歡現場音樂，發現一支喜歡的樂隊就會興奮地去看演出。他愛波士頓凱爾特人，愛去現場看球，還順口說了句今年希望他們能贏。這些事都讓他開心。
幾萬場架看下來，他得到的結論很簡單
主持人最後問了一個很大的問題：看了這麼多年、這麼多場比賽，你對人性有什麼理解？
懷特的回答沒有任何學術包裝。
“我不管你是什麼膚色、來自哪個國家、說什麼語言，我們都是人。格鬥在我們的 DNA 裡。我們天生就懂它，就喜歡它。”（達納·懷特）
他描述了一個幾乎所有人都見過的場景：不管你在哪，只要有人打起來，那個地方就會立刻產生一種能量，一種躁動，還夾雜著恐懼。人的情緒會同時湧上來好幾種。但有一件事永遠成立，所有人都在看。所有的眼睛都盯著那場架。
這也是他當年敢買下 UFC 的底層判斷。他相信這件事在任何地方都能成。他的原話是：感謝上帝，我們賭對了。
回頭看，這個判斷的準確性有點嚇人。一項在 1993 年還被認為野蠻、上不了檯面的運動，三十年後成了全球性的生意，從地球上幾乎任何一個地方都能找出選手。懷特說這句話的時候語氣很平靜，但這句平靜的話本身就是這項運動最硬的成績單。
他還講過一個對比，值得停下來想一想。綜合格鬥這項運動，在過去三十年裡的進化速度，超過了之前三百年。原因不神秘：UFC 把全世界不同流派的人放進同一個八角籠，逼著所有人互相學習。拳擊手發現必須練防摔，摔跤手發現必須練站立，柔術選手發現地面技術再強，被打一拳也會睡過去。三十年的高強度對抗篩選，抵得上過去幾百年的分散演進。
這也是為什麼懷特反覆強調配對的重要性。他可以為瓊斯安排一串沒名氣的對手，讓瓊斯一路碾壓，戰績表會非常漂亮。但他明確說了：那樣的話，我們今天坐在這裡就沒什麼可聊的了。
“我可以給喬恩·瓊斯排一堆無名小卒讓他刷。別的組織就是這麼幹的。那樣的話，我們今天什麼話題都沒有。”（達納·懷特）
這句話解釋了他對“完美戰績”的態度：在 UFC 裡保持全勝當然驚人，但你跟誰打、怎麼打，比那張戰績表更重要。傳奇不會被保護出來，它只會被一次次推到懸崖邊上逼出來。
還有一個更細的觀察。懷特說，這項運動裡真正的頂尖只有極少數人。能進前五的，是極其獨特、極其特殊的人類。這句話聽上去像老闆在誇員工，但它其實解釋了他為什麼對那批人如此忠誠。他見過太多人在第五回合、在體力耗盡、在腦子裡開始想“我是不是要死了”的時候，仍然往前壓。這種時刻他看過幾千次，還是會覺得震撼。
為什麼這個故事值得看完
這場訪談表面上在聊格鬥，實際上聊的是怎麼把一件沒人看好的事做成。
懷特講的所有細節都指向同一個結構：先有一個極其具體的品味判斷，然後不計成本地執行，最後靠時間把它變成壁壘。他討厭 HBO 的解說，這個私人偏好變成了 UFC 解說席的用人標準：只用真正下過場的人。他在祖母家看阿里時感受到的那種能量，變成了他對現場體驗的執念。他第一次被壓在柔術墊上感受到的謙卑，變成了他理解拳手的入口。
這些判斷在當時都沒有資料支撐。200 萬美元買下一家沒人要的公司，靠的是洛倫佐和他在柔術墊上滾了幾個月之後形成的直覺。
另一件值得注意的事：他對“負面”的態度。Power Slap 被罵得比當年的 UFC 還狠，他的反應是我拿它當早餐吃。這裡面有嘴硬的成分，也有別的。他早年被 Affliction 的股東天天發簡訊威脅要殺他，被媒體指責消費暴力，被 Spike TV 放鴿子，被起亞無視。在一個長期被主流鄙視的行業裡活下來的人，對負面評價的耐受度是被反覆錘鍊出來的。
還有一點容易被忽略：他對人的方式。羅根被圍攻時他提出辭職，疫情時不裁一個跟了二十年的員工，康納臨陣換人從不加價他就記了一輩子。這些事在商業教科書裡不算策略，但在一個高度依賴個人關係和信任的行業裡，它們是真正的資產。UFC 最難的那幾年，留在他身邊的都是這種人。
他還有一層很多人沒注意到的能力：把私人情緒轉化成產品標準，而且轉化得非常徹底。他討厭的東西，他會記二十年，然後在自己做的產品裡一條一條反著來。這種“記仇式的產品感”，比任何使用者調研都更細。
如果你只能從這場對話裡拿走幾件事
- 先有品味，再有生意。懷特做 UFC 的所有標準，都來自他當拳迷時愛過和恨過的細節。把你對自己所在領域的“愛”和“恨”各列一張清單，那些讓你看不下去的地方，往往比任何行業報告更接近機會。
- 早期別談工作生活平衡。他的說法很絕對：想著自己安排時間的人，永遠不會成功。這話不必照單全收，但要承認它的核心，創業前幾年沒有休息日，得先接受這個前提再決定要不要開始。
- 把團隊當成核心資產，成本項排在後面。他說自己二十五年做對的一件事是搭團隊。判斷標準裡，簡歷的分量很輕，這個人是否真的熱愛這件事分量很重。羅根免費解說十三場，就是這個標準的極端案例。
- 別保護你的戰績，去挑最強的對手。這條對拳手成立，對其他行業同樣成立。你在什麼級別的對手面前贏過，決定了別人怎麼評估你。安全的選擇會讓履歷變漂亮，也會讓你的故事變得沒人想聽。
- 把負面評價當燃料，先確認它不會傷到你。他的判斷標準很實用：如果你輸了就陷入深度抑鬱，那這件事不適合你；如果你被網上幾句罵就睡不著，那社交平臺也不適合你。先測自己的耐受度，再決定要不要進入高對抗的領域。
- 給生活留一個固定的感恩時刻。他每週有三四個晚上會開過 Summerlin Parkway 那個彎，看整座城市的燈。不管當天多爛，那個瞬間他都在感恩。這個習慣比任何時間管理方法都更能解釋他為什麼五十四歲還每天九點半到公司。
- 想清楚你在合作裡最怕對方做什麼，然後自己永遠不做。他記了康納一輩子的好，理由只有一條：臨陣換人時不坐地起價。這種“不作惡的小事”在長期合作裡的價值，往往超過能力本身。
訪談最後，主持人唸了一段阿里的話作為收尾：不可能只是小人物掛在嘴邊的一個大詞，他們寧願待在給定的世界裡，也不願去探索自己改變它的力量。不可能不是事實，是觀點。不可能不是宣告，是挑釁。
這段話放在懷特身上不算違和。一個在 2001 年用 200 萬美元買下瀕死公司的人，一個被告知 Sphere 那場比賽做不出來的人，一個每天起床都覺得生活要踹他臉的人，信的就是這套東西。
文稿來自 Lex Fridman 官網公開發布的官方 Transcript（含說話人與時間戳）。
Dana White (00:00:00): Khabib beat Conor. Putin was on FaceTime before he even made it to the locker room. Trump sitting president, ex-president, watching all the fights calling, wants to talk about the fights. Valentina Shevchenko, every time she goes home, she meets with the president of the country. The list goes on and on and on. Elon Musk, Zuckerberg, I mean, the list goes on and on and on. The most powerful people in the world are all obsessed with fighting.
Lex Fridman (00:00:30): The following is a conversation with Dana White, the president of the UFC, a mixed martial arts organization that revolutionized the art, the sport, and the business of fighting. And Dana is truly the mastermind behind the UFC. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here’s Dana White. Do you remember when you saw your first fight?
Dana White (00:01:00): I think so. I remember being at my grandmother’s house and I think it was an Ali fight, and all my uncles were going crazy during the fight, and there was just this buzz and this energy in the house that I liked at a very young age, and I’m pretty sure that was my first fight.
Lex Fridman (00:01:17): Ali was something special.
Dana White (00:01:18): Yeah, incredible. I mean, when you look around, not just here in the office, but at my house, Ali and Tyson are everywhere.
Lex Fridman (00:01:27): Would you put Ali as the greatest of all time boxing?
Dana White (00:01:30): Well, I would put Ali as the greatest of all time human being. I mean, it’s easy as a fight fan to focus on him as a fighter, but when you focus on him as a human and you think about what he meant at that time and place, the things he said, the poems he came up with, just the overall brilliance of Muhammad Ali. The guts to have the strength mentally, physically, and emotionally to go against the grain at the time that he did it. It was a very dangerous time for him to be who he was. Yet, because of how smart he was and because of his personality and how if you sat down with him, you could be the biggest racist on the planet, it’s hard to get in the room with Ali and not like Ali.
Lex Fridman (00:02:26): Yeah, he’s all love, humor, all of it.
Dana White (00:02:29): 100%
Lex Fridman (00:02:30): And had the guts in the ring and the guts to take a stand.
Dana White (00:02:34): 100%
Lex Fridman (00:02:34): When it was hard.
Dana White (00:02:35): He might be one of the all time greatest humans. Just an impactful, powerful human being who happened to be a great boxer.
Lex Fridman (00:02:47): And sometimes the right moment meets the great human being. That’s important.
Dana White (00:02:52): I agree with you. And he was the right guy in the right place at the right time. And he’s also a guy who used his platform for all the right things.
Lex Fridman (00:03:03): So that might’ve been your first fight, but when did you fall in love with fighting? The art of it? The science of it?
Dana White (00:03:09): Yeah, I would say I really fell in love with it, so I was a senior. It was 1987 and Hagler Leonard happened, and I watched that fight and I taped it and I watched that fight like a million times. I was a huge, huge Hagler fan, and I like Sugar Ray Leonard too, but I was a huge Hagler fan. And I just remember I watched that fight a million times because I was pissed off and I felt like Haggler got robbed in the fight. But that was really what made me start to love the sport of boxing.
Lex Fridman (00:03:49): The battle of it.
Dana White (00:03:50): Yeah. I was 17 and then after that, USA’s Tuesday Night Fights came out on television. It was on every Tuesday night. Religiously, never missed Tuesday Night Fights. I was there, watched all those fights. And a lot of the things you see in the UFC, not necessarily just the production, but I would say the feel and the style and all those things are all things that I loved about boxing and things that I hated about boxing, right down to the commentary.
Lex Fridman (00:04:31): You loved and hated?
Dana White (00:04:34): Yeah.
Lex Fridman (00:04:35): Hated the commentary.
Dana White (00:04:36): Certain things that I loved about boxing, I incorporated into the UFC. Things that I hated about boxing, I made sure that the UFC stayed far away from. I can’t stand Larry Merchant. Can’t stand Larry Merchant. And I used to watch HBO Boxing and mute the commentary so that I didn’t have to listen to them. Lampley too. You would spend this money for the pay-per-view to watch these people that you idolized to hear these idiots rip them apart while the fight was happening.
Lex Fridman (00:05:09): Oh they were criticizing them?
Dana White (00:05:09): 100%.
Lex Fridman (00:05:10): Or taking them apart. I’ve gotten used to the UFC, so I’m trying to remember looking back.
Dana White (00:05:17): It was bad.
Lex Fridman (00:05:17): It was bad?
Dana White (00:05:18): It was really bad.
Lex Fridman (00:05:20): But the sweet science, the art of boxing was beautiful still.
Dana White (00:05:24): 100%.
Lex Fridman (00:05:25): Like the stories you told.
Dana White (00:05:25): I want to do this with you right now. Hey, will you bring your cell phone over here and pull up YouTube? I want to do this for you so that you can understand this and understand where I was coming from.
Lex Fridman (00:05:36): For the commentary?
Dana White (00:05:37): Yeah, at this point in time.
Lex Fridman (00:05:39): I have all good memories. You’re going to ruin it for me.
Dana White (00:05:41): Yeah, no, there are nothing but great memories about boxing, but the presentation and a lot of the things, but how fucking weird is it that I even cared about this shit at that point in my life and that time in my life? What impact could I possibly have on it? So think about Tyson and how much everybody loved Tyson at the time, and listen to this entrance.
Speaker 1 (00:06:04): …Of the former undisputed heavyweight champion. And here he comes, Mike Tyson, as he heads toward the same ring he made his disgraceful exit in June of ’97.
Lex Fridman (00:06:12): Wow.
Speaker 1 (00:06:14): …But proud.
Dana White (00:06:15): One of the baddest motherfucking walk-ins of all time, by the way.
Lex Fridman (00:06:15): Look at that.
Dana White (00:06:19): So what this guy should be doing, and this is one of the Albert brothers, shut the fuck up. Stay out of the way.
Lex Fridman (00:06:26): Yeah, maybe build them up.
Dana White (00:06:30): Or that. Or don’t say anything. Just let the fans… That’s why we watch it. That’s why we paid our money.
Lex Fridman (00:06:38): You don’t need to say anything.
Speaker 1 (00:06:40): Scary imposing music. Will he be able to intimidate his opponent tonight? Will it even matter? I really thought that’d be more of an explosion by the crowd here, but very mixed. Even with a win tonight, no matter how one sided, he will still have his detractors following the two fights. With Holyfield, his stock plummeted, the pundits came down hard feeling they were duped, that his knockouts were over second rate fighters. Now the crowd erupts more as he gets into the ring, but it’s certainly nothing overwhelming.
Lex Fridman (00:07:27): What a dick. You’re right. I don’t remember that. You’re right.
Dana White (00:07:32): Imagine.
Lex Fridman (00:07:33): You’re right.
Dana White (00:07:34): Imagine you paid your money to watch Mike Tyson and you got to listen to these fucking jerkoffs talk shit about him the whole way to the… First of all, one of the coolest walk-ins ever. The first time anybody had heard DMX.
Lex Fridman (00:07:48): Yeah, that’s right.
Dana White (00:07:51): He’s walking into some scary imposing music. Will it even matter? It’s just all that stuff. I literally used to analyze every ounce of the production that would happen on television and at a time when I didn’t even know why I was doing it, but-
Lex Fridman (00:08:10): But it was in there somewhere. You were thinking about it.
Dana White (00:08:12): Right? So yeah, I hated HBO commentary. I thought at the time, HBO Boxing was obviously the gold standard, but when you really think about boxing at that time, their production, the only thing that changed over 30 years was HD. I mean, even the commentators were the same for 30 years. And then you had the time when Larry Merchant gets up and literally starts fighting with Floyd Mayweather during the interview and says, “If I was 30 years younger, I’d kick your ass right now.”
Lex Fridman (00:08:43): Oh yeah, I remember that.
Dana White (00:08:44): I mean, these are the interviews that we have to listen to when we’re trying to watch a boxing match?
Lex Fridman (00:08:49): The level of boxing was good.
Dana White (00:08:51): Think about a fighter. A fighter has been gone for months away from their families and away from everything, training, cutting weight, sparring. Then they go in and they have to fight that night? And then if you watch your fight back, you got to listen to this bullshit from these guys? And then you get interviewed and your interview is this? It’s just…
Lex Fridman (00:09:13): And it’s not just about the pay-per-view money. It’s about these are legends of humanity.
Dana White (00:09:18): 100%.
Lex Fridman (00:09:18): We should celebrate the highest form of accomplishment.
Dana White (00:09:21): 100%.
Lex Fridman (00:09:22): Because these are Mike Tyson.
Dana White (00:09:23): So you know who goes in there and interviews fighters? Joe Rogan, who has trained and done everything and has the utmost respect for the sport and the athletes. Or you got Daniel Cormier who was a former world champion himself and has actually been through it, done it, knows. And those are the type of people that we put in the booth, people that are actually experienced in it, not these people who’ve never been in a fight in their fucking life.
Lex Fridman (00:09:52): But they’re also, both DC and Rogan are big kids. They love it.
Dana White (00:09:52): 100%.
Lex Fridman (00:09:56): They really love it.
Dana White (00:09:58): Well, everybody does. I mean, it’s the difference between our commentary and what I feel their commentary was. We don’t hire paid talking heads. We hire people that have actually been in it, done it, love it, and are super passionate about the sport. And I would say that none of them that ever covered the sport back then were. I don’t know if that was Marv Albert or what Albert brother that was, but he sounded like he’s a fan of the sport or? Anyway, you got me on this, and once I get on this, I lose my mind.
Lex Fridman (00:10:34): Maybe we wouldn’t have a UFC if they didn’t fuck it up so bad for the Tyson walk-up.
Dana White (00:10:39): It would be different. You’re not wrong. You’re not wrong. It would be different. There’s no doubt about it. All those experiences growing up being a boxing fan help create what the UFC is today.
Lex Fridman (00:10:49): It’s interesting because humans have been fighting for millennia, and it seems like with the UFC, the rate of innovation is just insane. In these last three decades, it seems like we’ve discovered how to do unarmed combat faster and better than any time in human history.
Dana White (00:11:09): I agree with you 100%. The first UFC happened in 1993. Martial art versus martial art. And now over the last 30 years, martial arts has evolved faster than… And like you just said, combat sports, fighting, whatever you want to call it, martial arts, it has evolved so much in 30 years more than the last 300 years.
Lex Fridman (00:11:35): What did you think when you saw UFC 1 with Hoist?
Dana White (00:11:39): I remember everybody talking that this fight was going to happen and there was going to be no rules and all this other stuff. And we’re like, “There’s no way. That’s bullshit.” And then we ended up at some guy’s house that night in Boston and watching it and it was happening and it was fun and it was exciting and everything else. And then I fell off after that. The first one I watched, but I was too big of a boxing fan. Plus once grappling started taking over, and by grappling meaning the wrestling and the jiu-jitsu guys had just laid there, I completely lost interest. It’s funny that I’m having this conversation with you right now because I was out last night with my friends and we were talking about, because one of my buddies who’s a host here in town, just did jiu-jitsu for the first time.
Lex Fridman (00:12:25): Nice.
Dana White (00:12:25): …Yesterday. And he was like-
Lex Fridman (00:12:27): Did he get his ass kicked?
Dana White (00:12:28): Yeah, yeah. But when you first go in, our first jiu-jitsu lesson, me, Lorenzo, and Frank was with John Lewis, and I remember thinking, “Holy shit, I can’t believe that I’m 28 years old and this is the first time I’m experiencing this, that another human being could do this to me on the ground.” It is such an eyeopening, mind blowing experience when you do it for the first time and then you become completely addicted to it. And we were training three, four days a week trying to kill each other, me and the Fertittas, and that’s how we fell in love with the sport. I think that first time that you do jiu-jitsu, it’s like the red pill and the blue pill in The Matrix. Do you want to believe that this is the world that you live in, or do you want to see what the real world looks like?
Lex Fridman (00:13:22): Just is a real red pill.
Dana White (00:13:24): It really is.
Lex Fridman (00:13:25): You realize, “Holy shit, all that shit talking I’ve been doing about me being a badass,” you realize you’re not. You get dominated by another human being, you realize, “No.”
Dana White (00:13:35): And I mean dominated. I mean completely treats you like you’re a little kid. And then we had the opportunity to roll with a lot of different guys at the time because of the whatever, and we don’t have a good relationship at all. But I’ll tell you this, Frank Shamrock came in one day and Frank Shamrock had me in side control. The pressure that this guy put on my chest made me tap. It felt like there was a car on my chest. And with zero effort from him, it was absolutely effortless. And when you train with somebody that’s at such a level when you’re not, it is the most humbling, mind blowing experience you can have, especially as a man, but as a human being.
Lex Fridman (00:14:26): Just for fun, do you remember what your go-to submission was?
Dana White (00:14:30): Yeah, so when we first started out and started doing it, I had a pretty good guillotine in the beginning. So I’d catch a lot of people in guillotines.
Lex Fridman (00:14:37): So you’re okay being on bottom? So the guard was pretty good?
Dana White (00:14:40): Yeah, I was okay with the bottom. I was comfortable there. But you know what I never liked? I never liked gi. We started fucking around with a gi in the beginning, that’s how we started. And then once I took the gi off, I felt like I had no submissions because I couldn’t grab onto anything. So after that, I went all no gi and I never wanted to wear a gi.
Lex Fridman (00:15:01): That’s fascinating because no gi has become big now and there’s a lot of interesting people. I got trained with Gordon Ryan, and the level there is just fascinating. It’s become the science and it looks like fighting now. It looks more like fighting as opposed to with the gi, sometimes it doesn’t quite look like fighting. And I feel like it’s transferable to actual MMA fighting, no gi stuff.
Dana White (00:15:24): Or street.
Lex Fridman (00:15:25): Street, yeah.
Dana White (00:15:27): I mean, if you start off in your first year you’re in a gi, man, you better hope guy’s got winter jackets on or something if something happens in the street because, I know all the jiu-jitsu fucking people are going to go crazy over this, but in my opinion, no gi is way better than gi.
Lex Fridman (00:15:44): That said, I also do judo. So in the street scenario, if you’re comfortable on the feet and you can clinch and you can throw, because most of us wear clothing, especially in Boston in the winter setting, so if you’re comfortable on the feet, you could still do well. The problem with jiu-jitsu is most people are not comfortable on the feet, the sports jiu-jitsu. Most people want to get to the ground as quickly as possible. So what’d you think of Hoist at that time in the early… Because it blew a lot of people’s minds that there’s more to this puzzle.
Dana White (00:16:17): 100%, and the fact that you had these guys like Ken Shamrock that were jacked and you had all these wrestlers or the big massive guys that they had in the different weight classes, and this skinny little dude like Hoist was out there beating everybody. I mean, if you look at the way the Gracie’s played that, you couldn’t have had a better advertisement for Gracie Jiu-jitsu at the time.
Lex Fridman (00:16:42): But also for MMA, because there’s just a lot of surprising elements. A lot of people’s prediction was wrong. They didn’t think the skinny guy would win. And they’re like, “Oh shit, there’s more to this.”
Dana White (00:16:56): What’s the real beautiful thing about jiu-jitsu? It’s like when you talk about if you wanted to get your daughter into a martial art, “Should I put my daughter into karate or should I put her into this?” You put your daughter into jiu-jitsu 100% because it’s not about size or strength, it’s about technique. And you give your daughter a bunch of jiu-jitsu and a little bit of Muay Thai.
Lex Fridman (00:17:19): Yeah, she becomes dangerous.
Dana White (00:17:21): It’s like the perfect combo. Because you can put your son into anything. Your son can get into some… Boys are going to learn how to fight and they’re going to do whatever. But girls are different. And the other thing, I mean, this is the biggest selling point for jiu-jitsu for women. I mean, when a woman, no matter how big, how small can put a guy to sleep in three and a half seconds.
Lex Fridman (00:17:39): What’s the origin story of the UFC as it is today as you’ve created it and you and Lorenzo and Fertitta brothers built it?
Dana White (00:17:48): It started with John Lewis and seeing him. Frank and I were out one night at the Hard Rock and John Lewis was there and he’s like, “Oh, that’s that ultimate fighting guy.” And I was like, ” I know him.” And Frank’s like, “I’ve always wanted to learn ground fighting.” And I said, “Yeah, I’m interested in it too.” So we went over, we talked to John Lewis and we made an appointment to wrestle with him on Monday. And we told Lorenzo and Lorenzo came with us. And that was the beginning of the end. I mean, we started doing jiu-jitsu and started to meet a lot of the fighters.
Dana White (00:18:25): At the time, there was a stigma attached to the sport that these guys were despicable, disgusting human beings, which was the furthest thing from the truth. These kids had all gone to college, had college degrees, most of them because they wrestled in college. And we started to meet some of them. We loved the different stories. You had Chuck Liddell who had this mohawk, looks like an ax murderer, but graduated from Cal Poly with honors in accounting. Then you had Matt Hughes who was this farm boy, literally lived on a farm. And so there were all these cool stories with all these good people that weren’t what people thought they were. And Lorenzo and I always felt like there’s something here. If this thing was done the right way, this could be big.
Dana White (00:19:15): And what was crazy was I was in a contract negotiation with Bob Meyrowitz, the old owner of the UFC over Tito’s contract and Chuck Liddell. They didn’t even want Chuck Liddell in the UFC.I was trying to get Chuck in the UFC and they didn’t even want him. And we got into this contract dispute over Tito’s contract and Bob Meyrowitz said, “You know what? There is no more money, okay? I don’t even know if I’ll even be able to put on one more event.” And he flipped out. When we hung up the phone, I literally picked up the phone and called Lorenzo and I said, “Hey, I just got off the phone with Bob Meyrowitz, the owner of the UFC, I think they’re in trouble and I think we could buy it and I think we should. You should reach out to him.” So Lorenzo called Meyrowitz, and I don’t remember the timeline, but within the next two months, we ended up owning the UFC for $2 million bucks.
Lex Fridman (00:20:07): And you’ve said that you fought a lot of battles during that time.
Dana White (00:20:11): I mean, the early days of building this company and building the sport, it was the wild, wild west, man. It was crazy back then. I was literally at war every day with all different types of people. Plus traditionally, there’s bad people that are involved in fighting, man, there’s lots of bad people. And we had to sift our way through that for the first seven, eight years.
Lex Fridman (00:20:36): So in general, there’s corruption that people steal money. They’re thinking just about themselves, not the bigger business.
Dana White (00:20:42): Let me tell you about this. I mean, I want to say it was the Netherlands. I don’t remember exactly where. It could have been Amsterdam. I mean, MMA promoters were like car bombing each other, and then the other guy shot up the other guy’s house with machine guns and that’s the kind of shit that was going on. I’ll tell you the story. So Affliction, do you remember Affliction?
Lex Fridman (00:21:04): Yeah.
Dana White (00:21:04): So there was a guy, I want to say his name was Todd Beard or something like that. This guy used to text me every day when they started their MMA thing telling me he was going to kill me.
Lex Fridman (00:21:05): Legitimately, that’s what-
Dana White (00:21:19): Legitimately going to kill me. “You punk motherfucker. I’m going to fucking kill you. You don’t understand who I am and what I’ve done,” and this and that. I think this guy would get drunk or do drugs every night or whatever his deal was. This guy would call me, text me, and threaten my life every day. I used to go, “Fuck you,” and this and that.
Lex Fridman (00:21:38): You said, “Fuck you” to that guy?
Dana White (00:21:39): Oh yeah, man. Especially back then. But I mean, this is the type of shit that went on in the early days. This guy who was one of the owners of Affliction was not a good human, let’s put it that way.
Lex Fridman (00:21:53): What about the business side of it? It’s tough to make money in this business.
Dana White (00:21:57): Yeah, we weren’t making money, so trying to build this thing corrupt. The guys that worked for In Demand pay-per-view at the time were not good dudes and that thing was a fucking total monopoly. God, I wish I could remember his name right now. He used to run In Demand and he was a fucking bad guy. Then he comes over and starts running DirecTV, who we always had a great relationship with and he’s the reason we left DirecTV and said, “Fuck it. We’ll just go streaming then.” I don’t remember his name. I’d have to ask Lorenzo.
Lex Fridman (00:22:38): So in general, just in this whole space, there’s a lot of shady people?
Dana White (00:22:42): Everybody you deal with, you’re dealing with a lot of different forces and your hands are in a lot of different businesses. From the venue business to the merchandise business to the video game business, the pay-per-view business, the list goes on and on of all the different types of… The production…
Dana White (00:23:00): The list goes on and on of all the different types of the production business, of all these different… When I first started this, we had a production team that was the production team that was in it before we bought it. So there was this incident with Phil Baroni, where Phil Baroni, we did an interview with him, and Baroni flips out in the interview when they’re interviewing him and goes crazy. And I thought it was awesome. So I’m like, “We’re going to leave this in. We’re going to leave this interview in.” And the production guys were arguing with me. They’re like, “We can’t leave this in. This is totally unprofessional.” I said, “I don’t give a shit. This is what we’re doing. We’re going to do this and clip it like this and do it like that.”
Dana White (00:23:46): We’re sitting in the venue that night, and I lean over to Lorenzo because the fight’s coming up. I go, wait till you see this interview with Baroni. They didn’t fucking do it. They didn’t do it. These guys were guys that were freelance guys that worked for Showtime at the time or something like that.
Lex Fridman (00:24:03): [inaudible 00:24:03].
Dana White (00:24:03): I literally got up from my fucking seat, went back there, kicked the fucking door of the truck open, and I said, “You motherfuckers. You ever do that again and I’ll fire every one of you.” Let’s just put it this way. I ended up firing every one of them anyway and going with a whole new crew. But these were the type of things that early on… There’s so much stuff. I mean, I could sit here for three days and walk you through all the stuff that used to go on back in those days. But it was the Wild Wild West, man.
Lex Fridman (00:24:30): But how’d you figure out, how’d you know how to deal with all this mess? First of all, to fire people, to fire people that aren’t doing a good job, all of that. How to be a leader, how to be a…
Dana White (00:24:38): Well, that’s the thing too.
Lex Fridman (00:24:40): … business leader.
Dana White (00:24:41): In the early days, there was two employees, me and another girl that worked for me, for my company before I started doing this, and then we slowly started to bring people on and you started to build a team. And then before you know it, we had 10 people. We used to do our Christmas parties back then too. There’d be eight to ten people at our Christmas party. But a lot of it is, you’ll learn as you go. You know what me and the Fertittas knew about production when we bought this UFC? I want to say we had two or three weeks to pull off an event. This is what we knew about production.
Lex Fridman (00:25:15): Really?
Dana White (00:25:15): Jack shit. So we had to dive in and we had to learn it. We had to figure it out, and we knew what we wanted. We knew what we liked. We knew what we were looking for. It’s just about building a good team, and I think that’s one of the things, if you want to talk about what I’ve accomplished in the last 25 years of my life, I’ve been really good at building teams.
Lex Fridman (00:25:39): Already have a vision of what you want the final thing to look like, and then build a team that can bring that to life.
Dana White (00:25:43): A hundred percent. Well, you have to have the vision. Without the vision, there’s nothing. So that’s sort of what I do. I am the vision part of this thing. We’re going to open a PI in Mexico, we’re going to do this, we’re going to do that. And then you build the team to come in and help execute.
Lex Fridman (00:26:09): A lot of people that do fighting promotions fail. You succeeded against the long odds. What’s the secret to your success, if you would, just looking back over the years?
Dana White (00:26:20): Well, the secret to success, I would say, first of all is passion and consistency. You have to love what you do. You have to get up every day. And I get here every day at 9:30 in the morning. When we sold in 2016, a lot of people in the company made a lot of money, and they all took off and they retired. Other than the Fertittas, I made the most money. I’m still here. I get here at 9:30 every morning. Last night I left here at 8:30. And I don’t know how late I’m going to be here tonight, but I love what I do. We get up every day and grind. I work just as hard now as I did back then.
Dana White (00:27:03): The difference between back then and now is I don’t have to do a bunch of the that I don’t really like to do, like budget meetings. I don’t like budget meetings. I sat through enough fucking budget meetings and… Horrible budget meetings. Horrible. We’re losing millions of dollars a year, and I’m in these budget meetings. So I get to pick and choose what I do these days. Back in the early days, you don’t get to pick and choose. You have to be involved in everything.
Lex Fridman (00:27:33): So cost, you’re just looking at cost and stuff.
Dana White (00:27:35): A hundred percent. You literally go through line by line, every fucking number in the company and where did the money go and how can we save costs? How can we do this better? How can we… They are brutal, and there are multiple times a week and-
Lex Fridman (00:27:53): Probably helps to deeply appreciate how much this shit costs though.
Dana White (00:27:56): A hundred percent. Well, you have to know that. In the early days when you start your business, you have these people, who, when I hear them say, “You know what? I want to work for myself. I want to create my own schedule, and I want to do all the…” If that’s your thought process going into it, you’re never going to be successful. You have to pay attention to every single detail of the business early on. You’re involved in everything. There’s no days off, there’s no birthdays, there’s no Christmas, there’s none of that shit. I literally moved the birth of my second son for a Chuck Liddell fight. We had a Chuck Liddell fight coming up and they’re like, “Yeah, your son’s going to be born on this date.” And I’m like, “Yeah, that’s not going to work. We’re going to have to take him earlier. So they literally gave my wife a C-section and took my son early.
Lex Fridman (00:28:44): You were all in.
Dana White (00:28:44): All in. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (00:28:46): And the fascinating thing, like you said, you’ve said that you could care less about money. You’re doing this for the love of it.
Dana White (00:28:55): Yeah, I was doing this when I was broke, and I’m doing this now when I’m not broke. I’m doing this because I love it. And I feel like there’s so much more to do, and this is truly my passion in life. It’s like the Sphere. We’re doing the Sphere? Why? Why would I do the Sphere? It’s going to cost me a bunch of money. It’s really challenging. Most people think it can’t be pulled off, and you’re looking at weird angles, different things going on inside other than the fight and all this other stuff. But yeah, I’m doing it because it’s awesome and it’s challenging and it’s hard, and I think that if anybody can do it right, it’s us. So why not take that challenge?
Lex Fridman (00:29:37): It’s actually why I’m here. I’m going to the Sphere for the first time because I’m hanging out with Darren Aronofsky who put together the thing that’s in there now, and I can’t believe you’re thinking of… I don’t know how you’re going to solve that puzzle.
Dana White (00:29:48): There’s many puzzles to solve for this one. Many puzzles.
Lex Fridman (00:29:53): Can you speak to that? What are interesting challenges that you’re encountering?
Dana White (00:29:59): Yeah, so there’s a lot. So you have the octagon and then behind it is the world’s biggest screen, ever. So what is the theme? How do you program it? First of all, it’s super expensive to shoot, and the format for the Sphere, angles. We were talking about today. I just had a big meeting today about the Sphere this afternoon, and making sure that all my departments, all the details that I want all start to come together here in the next two weeks. I want the creative, the commercial. I have some goals. I will tell people as we get closer what I’m looking to achieve with this other than putting on one of the greatest, most unique sporting events of all time, and probably the greatest combat sporting event of all time. But yeah, there’s challenges. There’s a laundry list of challenges for this thing, and not to mention the fact that it’s on Mexican Independence Day, and we’re going to weave in the whole history of combat in Mexico-
Lex Fridman (00:31:09): Yeah. Nice.
Dana White (00:31:10): … into this event.
Lex Fridman (00:31:12): But the production, this is hilarious, because you were just talking about knowing nothing about production, so many years ago.
Dana White (00:31:17): And now tackling the Sphere, yeah.
Lex Fridman (00:31:19): The hardest production effort.
Dana White (00:31:20): Ever.
Lex Fridman (00:31:21): And that will be live?
Dana White (00:31:23): It’ll be live. It’ll be live on pay-per-view, it’ll be live in the arena, and it’ll also be in movie theaters.
Lex Fridman (00:31:31): Nice. So it will be shown at the Sphere later too? Will you try to create an experience?
Dana White (00:31:37): ESPN’s doing a doc on it.
Lex Fridman (00:31:38): Nice.
Dana White (00:31:39): The making of the Sphere. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (00:31:41): Well, you’re feeling good about it?
Dana White (00:31:42): Oh, yeah. I feel incredible about it. I can’t wait. It’s going to be fun.
Lex Fridman (00:31:47): I can’t wait to see how you solve the puzzle.
Dana White (00:31:50): Thank you.
Lex Fridman (00:31:50): Another guy that I feel like could care less about the money is Joe Rogan. How important is he to the UFC, to the rise of the UFC, and what in general do you love about Joe?
Dana White (00:32:02): It’s a fact, he doesn’t care about money, and he did the first 13 shows for free for us. You know what I mean? That was at a time when we were hurting and he’s like, “Wait a minute, you want me to do the commentary? You’re saying that I get to sit in the best seat in the house and watch these fights for free? Yeah, I’m in.” And then obviously, when we turned things around, we made it up to Joe. But Joe is one of the things that I loved early on about…
Dana White (00:32:30): So I’ll tell you the story. So we buy the UFC. They’re based in New York. We’re moving the corporate offices to Vegas. So I have to fly out to New York, go into the offices and start going through everything and figuring out what needs to come back to Vegas and what we can just throw away. So they literally had a VHS machine and a TV, and there were a million tapes in this place, man. So I didn’t know what tapes were these definitely we have to keep, or these we don’t need. So I had to sit there and go through every single tape. And I popped in a tape and there was an interview on the Ivory Keenen Wayans show, the oldest Wayans brother, and he had a talk show at the time, and he had Joe Rogan, the guy from Fear Factor on the show, and he was promoting Fear Factor, but all he would talk about was UFC.
Lex Fridman (00:33:23): Yeah, that’s Joe.
Dana White (00:33:24): And he was talking about how people think that these guys in the martial arts movies are tough, and he was talking about what UFC fighters would do to these martial arts guys if they ever got their hands on them. And I was like, this is exactly what I need. A guy who isn’t afraid to speak his mind and knows the sport inside and out, but more importantly, is super passionate about it and loves it.
Dana White (00:33:53): So when you see Joe Rogan on camera, and I was talking about the paid talking heads that they had in HBO boxing that were terrible, Joe Rogan does not come off as a paid talking head. He comes off as a guy who loves this. And so early on, no media would cover us. So I had to buy my way onto radio. So we’d do these radio tours, and they would drop us in. You’d have to get up at 3:30 in the morning in Vegas, on the west coast, because they’re at 6:30 in the morning in New York and Boston and Florida and all these other places. So they drop you into these markets to do radio, and the fighters were horrible at it. Fighters getting up at 3:30 in the morning, especially leading up to a fight, never good. They sound like they’re tired, they act like they’re tired, and they definitely act like they don’t want to be on there, and it’s bad radio. What you can’t have is bad radio. So the only two people that could pull off these radio tours were me and Joe Rogan. So me and Joe Rogan would alternate doing these radio tours all over the country.
Lex Fridman (00:35:04): Just talking about fighting, talking about-
Dana White (00:35:04): Exactly.
Lex Fridman (00:35:05): … what this whole thing is,
Dana White (00:35:06): A hundred percent.
Lex Fridman (00:35:07): … getting people excited.
Dana White (00:35:08): Two guys that are really into it and passionate about it and love it. And it’s one of the things about Rogan too, when early on, nobody understood the ground game. Joe Rogan would walk you through what was happening literally before it would happen. He would tell you the setup, what was going to come next and everything. He’d just absolutely articulate it perfectly, brilliantly, and people at home started to understand. And the impact that Joe Rogan has had and continues to have on this sport is immeasurable. He’s the biggest podcaster in the world, and he is on the UFC pay-per-views 14 times a year, and he’s always talking about the sport. It’s immeasurable what this guy has done for this company and the sport.
Lex Fridman (00:36:00): Yeah, still to this day, like I’ll have dinner with him offline, he’ll just talk fighting. He just loves it.
Dana White (00:36:05): It’s true.
Lex Fridman (00:36:06): Loves every aspect of it.
Dana White (00:36:07): Yep. Joe Rogan is one of those guys. I saw that early on. Why would you go after the Fear Factor guy to be such a key component, to not only the company, but to the sport? I saw it in the fucking interview on Ivory Keenen Wayans.
Lex Fridman (00:36:28): I value loyalty a lot, and I remember there was a moment not too long ago, maybe a year ago when I was sitting with Joe and he had a phone call with you. Joe was getting canceled for something, and they didn’t want him commentating the fights, and you on the phone offered your resignation over this. I got teary-eyed over that. That’s such a… You’re a good man. You know?
Dana White (00:36:58): Thank you.
Lex Fridman (00:36:59): That was powerful.
Dana White (00:37:01): Anybody who is with me, has been with me, knows. When you’re with me, you’re with me. It’s a two-way street. It’s not a one-way street. I’m not one of these guys that is going to roll over and… It’s like going through COVID. I wasn’t laying any of these people. Some of these people have been with me for 20 years. We’re going to lay them off. This will motherfucker will burn, burn, before I would do that to my people. None of that type of stuff is ever going to happen while I’m here. I can’t say what’s going to happen when I leave, but when I’m here, the people who are with me and have been with me, they know exactly what’s up, and Joe knows what’s up. And again, it’s a two-way street. Joe Rogan has been very loyal to me, and I’m very loyal to Joe Rogan.
Lex Fridman (00:37:57): Lorenzo, another guy you have close friendship with, you seem to have been extremely effective together as business partners. What’s the magic behind that? How can you explain that?
Dana White (00:38:07): I love him. Lorenzo and I work really well together because we have two different personalities. I’m the guy that always… I’m going here. Lorenzo was always here. You could walk in a room and say, “Lorenzo, you just lost $10 million. Lorenzo, you just won $10 million.” It never changes. And I’m a guy that goes like this, right? So we almost balance each other out. There’s a lot of things that he’s really fucking good at, and there’s a lot of things that I’m really good at, and they’re both on the opposite sides of the spectrum.
Lex Fridman (00:38:41): So that level headed thing was useful when the UFC was losing money and it was unknown whether it’s going to survive those low points?
Dana White (00:38:50): Yeah. A hundred percent. What’s incredible when you think of the story of the UFC, at the time the casino business was cranking, and station casinos was killing it. And stations, their money from stations is what was funding the UFC. Then in the ’08, ‘9 crash, the UFC was killing it in ’08 and ’09, and the casino businesses were hurting. So timing on everything, the way that it all worked out couldn’t have worked out better for them, and obviously for all of us. When you think about the UFC and how big it is and how far it reaches and how many people it touches, the Fertittas Brothers made a $2 million investment, then put in another 44 million, and look at how many lives that investment has changed over the last 25 years. It’s fascinating.
Lex Fridman (00:39:55): And it’s also crazy. Just forget the business of it. Just the effect it has on the history of humanity in terms of this is what we do, we’re descendants of apes that fight. And this is like the organizations that catalyze the innovation in how we fight. It’s crazy.
Dana White (00:40:13): [inaudible 00:40:13].
Lex Fridman (00:40:13): You created a whole new sport.
Dana White (00:40:15): That people all over the world participate in now. Literally, there isn’t a place on earth that we can’t get a fighter from now.
Lex Fridman (00:40:23): You said in the UFC 299 post-fight press conference that sometimes fighters might complain that they get matched up, uneven odds, but that’s actually when legends are made. I think you gave Dustin Poirier as an example. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? What makes a legend, what makes greatness in a fight?
Dana White (00:40:45): So behind the scenes, fighters are a very paranoid bunch of people. They’re very paranoid, and there’s been this theme with fighters where they’re trying to get me beat, right? We don’t determine who wins and loses. If we did, we’d be the WWE, okay? You do. I’m the bells and whistles guy. I make sure that as many people that we can possibly let know that you’re fighting on Saturday know that you’re fighting on Saturday. Who you are, who you’re going against, and why people should give a shit. That’s what I do.
Dana White (00:41:26): Then the night you show up, I put on the best live event that I possibly can, and I put on the best television show that I possibly can. Once that door shuts, it’s all up to you. You determine whether you lose or not. And if you get into a position where you become so paranoid that you think that the powers that be here are against you, and you try to steer yourself away from certain fights… That’s one of the big things that happens in these other organizations. In these other organizations, the inmates run the asylum. So if they don’t want to fight bad enough, these other companies don’t push and they don’t do this and they don’t… We put on the best possible matchups that we can make.
Dana White (00:42:22): And in this business, you might be an older fighter, but if you’re still ranked in the top 10, there’s young guys coming for you. Killers. Young killers are coming out and they want your position. So you being the veteran that you are have to prepare yourself to go in. And everybody was saying, when we made that fight with Saint-Denis that Poirier was in big trouble, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. That’s awesome. That helps build the entire thing that Poirier, and then Poirier goes out and does what he did that night. That’s what makes fucking legends.
Lex Fridman (00:43:06): It’s interesting because sometimes being the underdog is a really good thing for the long-term story of who you are as a fighter.
Dana White (00:43:13): Especially when you’re a big name and a name that people recognize and a name that people know. And they’re like, “Oh man.” I remember Israel Adesanya and Sean Strickland. A hundred out of a hundred people knew for a fact that Israel was going to win that fight, and here comes Strickland. And we could go on for days with this. You know what I mean? That is what creates legendary moments, legendary fights, and it’s what builds stars and legends.
Lex Fridman (00:43:42): Arguably, Conor McGregor with Jose Aldo.
Dana White (00:43:45): Yep. Conor McGregor with a bunch of people in the beginning. People said he couldn’t wrestle, people said he wouldn’t be able to defend a take down, blah, blah, blah, blah. Nate Diaz against Conor McGregor, you know what I mean?
Lex Fridman (00:43:56): Mm-hmm. And Conor McGregor against Khabib, underdog, probably. But if he won, there’s an opportunity to win. If he won, that’s the legend forming. He’s now in the conversation for the greatest of all time without argument.
Dana White (00:44:11): And if you look at the way that Khabib ran through so many people, Conor hung in there-
Lex Fridman (00:44:17): Yeah. It could have been.
Dana White (00:44:18): … and made a fight of it.
Lex Fridman (00:44:19): It could have been. What do you think about that matchup? It’s one of the greats, one of the great matchups that you’ve made, Conor McGregor versus Khabib.
Dana White (00:44:28): Yeah. At the time, I was incredibly criticized for putting together the spot that had the scene with the bus in it. The fucking medias, but they were saying that I was pandering to the violence that happened and trying to… I’m telling you a story, telling you a story of how we got here and how big this fight is, and how bad the blood is between these guys. And I mean, I think that’s what we do the best job at, is telling the fucking stories of why.
Dana White (00:45:09): We go into Monday. It’s fight week. We got a whole list of things that we do fight week. And then you get right down to the press conference on Thursday, the weigh-ins on Friday, and then the fights on Saturday. Now my people fly back home, they go to bed on Sunday night, and it’s Groundhog Day. We wake up again on Monday and it starts all over again. Every weekend, every Saturday, for a year. So there’s lots of stories that need to be told, there’s lots of… When you think about what I compete with, whatever takes your attention on a Saturday night is my competitor.
Lex Fridman (00:45:47): So you’re always trying to build a foundation for great stories, and if the fighters step up, they step up and they can together create greatness.
Dana White (00:45:56): That’s it. That’s exactly right. So when we are aligned, like when you get to the UFC, I mean, you just saw it with MVP, you’re going to see it with Kayla Harrison.
Dana White (00:46:00): You just saw it with MVP, you’re going to see it with Kayla Harrison and so many others that have come from other organizations, and they get here. They notice immediately the difference between fighting here and fighting wherever they were before. It’s not even comparable to the impact it has on you when you leave whatever organization you’re with and you come to the UFC. And I think that it gives them a sense of, holy shit. MVP when he came, I mean there were probably more people at the press conference than any fight he’d ever fought in, in Bellator. You know what I mean? And you feel that energy and you feel the difference of the impact of being here, and I think it takes a lot of these guys to another level.
Lex Fridman (00:46:49): Yeah. Just the aura of it.
Dana White (00:46:51): 100%.
Lex Fridman (00:46:51): This is where you’re supposed to step up. Yeah, it’s the way people feel about Ted Talks, giving lectures.
Dana White (00:46:57): Right.
Lex Fridman (00:46:57): This is your moment. You get 15 minutes and you better say some interesting shit. And Kayla Harrison, by the way, is a badass. I can’t wait to see what happens there.
Dana White (00:47:05): She was walking around with this sleeveless shirt the night of the fights and holy shit, she’s jacked, man. It’s crazy.
Lex Fridman (00:47:12): Two time Olympic gold medalist.
Dana White (00:47:13): Right.
Lex Fridman (00:47:14): You don’t fuck with those people. You win a medal, you’re made of something special.
Dana White (00:47:18): So true. Especially in judo.
Lex Fridman (00:47:20): Yeah, especially in American judo where you don’t have many training partners that are great.
Dana White (00:47:24): That’s what I’m saying.
Lex Fridman (00:47:25): So you better fucking work for it. Ridiculous question, but who’s in the conversation for the greatest of all time?
Dana White (00:47:32): Jon Jones.
Lex Fridman (00:47:34): You’ve talked about Jon Jones, but what are the metrics involved here?
Dana White (00:47:38): He’s never been beat. He destroyed everybody at light heavyweight, which at the time was the toughest weight class in the company, in the sport. And then he moved up to heavyweight, won easily at heavyweight. When you look at a guy and you look at what he was doing outside the octagon at the same time, which shouldn’t be part of it, shouldn’t be part of the equation, but when you do, wow, there’s no debate. Nobody can debate who’s the greatest of all time. It’s absolutely positively Jon Jones. He’s never lost. He’s never been beat in the octagon ever.
Lex Fridman (00:48:21): So that’s one of the metrics, pure sheer dominance. But there’s others. Losing sometimes is a catalyst for greatness.
Dana White (00:48:33): I don’t disagree. But when you’ve never lost, you’ve never lost. We’ve never found somebody. And the other thing that you have to factor in too is longevity. Because sometimes with a lot of these guys, the sport passes them by. You get younger guys that are faster, this, that, and the sport evolves. Nobody’s been able to beat Jon Jones. Oh, and the other thing that you measure is, when you said dominance, it’s true, if you’re this guy that has unbelievable power and you’re just going in and you’re just fucking knocking everybody out and nobody’s ever pulled you into the deep water before, that was when my opinion of Jon Jones started to change.
Dana White (00:49:18): Gustafsson took him into the deep water. Gustafsson hit him with some shit he’d never been hit with. Gustafsson tested him and put Jon Jones in a place where, I bet if you sat down and interviewed John Jones, going into the deep rounds of that, Jon Jones thought he was going to die. You know what I’m saying?
Lex Fridman (00:49:36): And he’s willing to go there.
Dana White (00:49:37): And he kept going. He was willing, willing to do whatever it took to win that fight.
Lex Fridman (00:49:44): And it breaks my heart because he beat DC, and DC is one of the greatest of all time.
Dana White (00:49:48): That’s the thing too. And I believe that DC doesn’t get the credit he deserves because of the Jon Jones thing. When you look at DC and what he’s accomplished, and Jon Jones beat him twice.
Lex Fridman (00:49:59): Yeah.
Dana White (00:50:00): It’s undeniable. You can hate all you want. Jon Jones is the greatest of all time.
Lex Fridman (00:50:05): Do you think Habib was tested enough?
Dana White (00:50:09): I think that Habib had the potential to be in the running for that. He just didn’t stick around. First of all, he had injuries that he should have been where he got a lot sooner had he not had the injuries that he had and the setbacks in his career. But there’s no doubt, Habib is one of the all-time greats.
Lex Fridman (00:50:29): What’s the good, the bad, and the ugly of your relationship with Conor?
Dana White (00:50:33): There’s literally no ugly. Conor McGregor has been an incredible partner to work with. If Conor showed up to things on time, there wouldn’t be one fucking bad thing I could say about Conor. You know what I mean?
Lex Fridman (00:50:45): It’s only being late to shit?
Dana White (00:50:46): If you put a fucking gun to my head and said, “Don’t lie, mother-fucker. Tell me all the bad things about Conor McGregor.” I’d say the guy doesn’t show up on time. That’s it.
Lex Fridman (00:50:57): That’s it.
Dana White (00:50:57): If Conor McGregor showed up to shit on time, and sometimes he does. Sometimes he does. He’s been a great partner. If you look at what a huge superstar he became, the fights that he was involved in, let me tell you what Conor McGregor never did. We never walked in a room and said, “Conor, this guy just fell out. We want you to fight this guy.” And he was like, “No way. I’m not taking this fucking risk. I’m at this point in my career where my money, my this, my that,” he was like, “Fuck it, let’s do it.” He’d always say, “Let’s do it.”
Dana White (00:51:28): The other thing that Conor McGregor never did, no matter how big he was or whatever it was, and we were heading into a fight, “Oh, Conor, this guy just fell out. Aldo fell out. We’re looking for another,” “Yeah, I’ll do it, but I’m going to need another 200,000. I’m going to need another $1 million.” Conor McGregor never did that chicken shit, bullshit kind of stuff. He never did any of that. Conor was as solid a guy as you could possibly work with.
Lex Fridman (00:51:54): Just fuck it, I’ll do it.
Dana White (00:51:56): I’ll do it. There’s actually a scene, because we were filming something, I don’t know if it was embedded or what we were filming at the time. Me and Lorenzo walk into his house that he rented here in Vegas, and I’m pretty sure it was when Aldo fell out, and we’re telling him this, that, and we’re looking at some options. He says, “I’m going to the gym. When I’m done working out, let me know.” He just woke up out of bed, he is in his fucking underwear, and he gets hit with this and he is like, “All right, I’m going to the gym. Let me know when I get out who I’m fighting.” Doesn’t care. Doesn’t want to know. Doesn’t want any more money. Nothing. Fucking shows up and he delivers. Conor has been incredibly successful, he’s made a lot of money, and he’s had his ups and downs outside and inside the octagon. But as for a guy who was on the dole and was a plumber, he’s actually a really smart businessman and he has been one of the best partners that I’ve ever had in the history of the sport.
Lex Fridman (00:52:55): And an important part of the history of the UFC.
Dana White (00:52:57): Big.
Lex Fridman (00:52:58): He opened it up to all kinds of new eyes.
Dana White (00:53:01): Yep. He literally set Europe, Australia, Canada, and many other parts of the world on fire, man. He was our first legit megastar.
Lex Fridman (00:53:15): And I personally think he doesn’t get enough credit for just how good he was as a fighter. People love to talk shit about Conor.
Dana White (00:53:22): So true.
Lex Fridman (00:53:23): I suppose that’s part of his magic.
Dana White (00:53:25): But it comes with success. When you’re successful, there’s always people out there that are going to talk shit. You always have a bunch of know nothing, do nothing fucking losers that love to talk shit.
Lex Fridman (00:53:37): You think if you were to do it all over again, Habib is the right matchup?
Dana White (00:53:41): Yeah. Listen, the thing that you can’t do is avoid match-ups. You know what I mean? This is what we’re talking about when you talk about being a legend. Conor McGregor needed Habib. Habib needed Conor McGregor. You can hate each other as much as you want, but you have to fight these other legendary bad mother-fuckers to yourself. Become a legend. I mean, it’s like Jon Jones needed Cyril Gun and Cyril Gun needed Jon Jones, because if Cyril could have beat Jon, the first guy, if anybody can ever figure it out and beat Jon Jones, it’s a big deal. And it’s almost like your obligation as a fighter. And when you think about Jon Jones became who he is today, and the reason I’m sitting here telling you how great he is, because all these other guys gave him the opportunity to beat them. Or they beat Jon. It’s all about giving these other guys the opportunity. Saint Denis, Poirier gave him the opportunity to come in and beat him. That’s how this all works.
Lex Fridman (00:54:51): It’s the two of them together, the two fighters together.
Dana White (00:54:54): You have to have them both. Listen, I could line up a bunch of no-name bums that Jon Jones could run through. That’s what they do in all the other organizations. We would have nothing to fucking talk about right now.
Lex Fridman (00:55:08): That’s why, luckily, a perfect record in the UFC is not as important as who you fought, how you fought.
Dana White (00:55:13): So true. But when you have a perfect record in the UFC, holy shit, right?
Lex Fridman (00:55:21): Yeah.
Dana White (00:55:23): When you can have a perfect record in the UFC, you are absolutely one of the most special athletes on planet earth.
Lex Fridman (00:55:31): You and Trump are friends. I just talked to Ivanka last night about her experience in the Miami event. She loves it. She’s training too. You’re talking about getting girls to train. She’s trained.
Dana White (00:55:43): And the kids are training, yeah. Her father’s the biggest fucking fight fan on the planet. Calls me all the time to talk about the fights. And Don Jr. said that I’m the only guy on earth that he bros out with. It’s funny when you talk about how powerful fighting is. This last Miami event, the President of Ecuador and the President of Spain both posted about the fights. Habib beat Conor. Putin was on FaceTime before he even made it to the locker room. Trump, sitting President, ex-President, watching all the fights, calling, wants to talk about the fights. Valentina Shevchenko, every time she goes home, she meets with the President of the country. The list goes on and on and on. Elon Musk, Zuckerberg, the list goes on and on and on, the most powerful people in the world are all obsessed with fighting.
Lex Fridman (00:56:42): When did you first discover that Trump loves fighting?
Dana White (00:56:45): I first discovered that Trump was a big fight fan, obviously, you saw him, we were talking about how big boxing fans we were, he was a part of all the big fights back then. But when we first bought the UFC, this thing was so bad venues didn’t even want us. And we ended up doing our first event in Atlantic City at the Trump Taj Mahal. Now, think about this. At that time, Trump brand here, UFC brand, I can’t go low enough. And he had us at his venue two times, back to back, showed up for the first fight of the night, and stayed till the last fight of the night. Then after that, any good thing that would ever happen to me in my career, Trump would reach out. Whether it was, we were on the front page of the New York Times at one time and he said, “Congratulations, Dana. I always knew you guys were going to do it.” Little things like that, but that are big things and mean a lot, especially coming from a guy like him.
Lex Fridman (00:57:44): He saw something in you like, this is going to be…
Dana White (00:57:46): 100%. He definitely saw it. And then comes ’15, ’16, whenever it was, I don’t remember, but he called me and he said, “Listen, if you don’t want to do this, I completely understand, but I would be honored if you would speak at the National Republican Convention for me.” And I’m not a very political guy, you know what I mean? And everybody told me not to do it. “Do not do this.” But I was like, why would I not do this? This guy’s been great to me. And I did it. And our relationship is just like, you know what I mean? I consider Donald Trump to be one of my very, very good friends.
Lex Fridman (00:58:31): Any favorite stories?
Dana White (00:58:34): There’s so many stories. Once he won the election, I’d be at work and I’d be down the hall in the matchmaking room, whatever, and my secretary would yell, “The President’s on the phone!”, fucking come running down the hallway and grab the phone, and he’d want to talk about the fight that was coming up or the fight that happened. Or I’d be in my car and I’d answer the phone and it’s like, “Hi. This is the White House. We have the President of the United States on the phone.” That’s a trip, when that first starts happening. And then just to sum him up, this is the kind of guy that you want to talk about a fighter, this is the most resilient human being I’ve ever met. If you see the shit that this guy’s going through publicly every day.
Dana White (00:59:26): And I’ll call him on the phone as a friend and be like, “Hey, you good? How you doing?” Unfazed, unfazed like nothing’s going on. And then he’ll start talking to me about this and that and all this other. One time, there’s only been one time, I’ve never talked about this publicly, but one time I called him and he was not good. He was a mess. I’ve never heard him like that and I’ve never seen him like that. When Ivana died, the only time I’ve ever seen him fucked up. Obviously, as soon as I heard it, I reached out. And I have never, look at all the stuff that’s gone on with Trump, all the bad stuff that they say, they’re trying to attack him, they’re trying to ruin him, unfazed. I called him that day and it’s the first time I’ve ever seen that guy busted up and not good.
Lex Fridman (01:00:25): But that says something that that’s the only time.
Dana White (01:00:27): 100%.
Lex Fridman (01:00:28): Because that that guy is, I mean, walking through fire.
Dana White (01:00:30): He does not get rattled. He will walk through fire. He’s an absolute savage.
Lex Fridman (01:00:34): You think he wins the Presidential election?
Dana White (01:00:36): I don’t know, man. It’s going to depend on how this whole… Politics is the most dirtiest, scummiest thing on planet earth, man, and who knows how this is all going to play out. It’s all dirty. It’s all ugly. And obviously I’m rooting for him and I’m behind him and I hope he does. But we’ll see.
Lex Fridman (01:00:56): What’s dirtier, the fighting game in the early days or politics?
Dana White (01:01:01): There’s nothing dirtier than politics, nothing. There’s literally nothing dirtier.
Lex Fridman (01:01:05): All right.
Dana White (01:01:06): It is the dirtiest thing on planet Earth.
Lex Fridman (01:01:08): I just wanted to get that on record. Another guy who doesn’t seem to be phased by the fire, I’ve gotten to know him, is Elon. I have to ask you, it’s a bit of fun. You were a part of thinking about putting together Zuck versus Elon. I trained with both. I did a phone call with Elon and you when we were training on the mat.
Dana White (01:01:29): I remember, yeah.
Lex Fridman (01:01:30): You really think that could have been a good fight?
Dana White (01:01:32): It would’ve been the biggest fight ever done.
Lex Fridman (01:01:34): The spectacle of it.
Dana White (01:01:35): Two of the most powerful, wealthiest men in the world. Lots of guys talk hit and go back and forth and sue each other and do all this stuff. These two guys were literally talking about facing each other in the octagon and fighting. And they’re in a business that’s looked at as geeky. You know what I mean? They’re tech nerds. They’re this, they’re that. These are two dudes that were willing to throw down and fight. And you know as well as I do, there’s a lot of public speculation about this. I was taking serious real time and working on this thing. I had projections, I had numbers. I was looking at venues. I was on the phone with the fucking coliseum in Italy. You name it, I was in it. These guys were serious. And this was something that was really going to happen. And I’ll tell you right now, in the short amount of time that it was going down, it was fun. I was having a blast with it.
Lex Fridman (01:02:30): What do you think about Tyson, Tyson fighting Jake Paul?
Dana White (01:02:34): I love Mike Tyson, and I’m not a fan of anybody fighting at our age. But he’s a grown man, obviously, and he’s going to do what he’s going to do. But at least I know, I talked to his wife a couple of days ago, and he’s taken this serious and he’s training for it. So we’ll see how it plays out.
Lex Fridman (01:02:59): Why do you think he fights though? What is that about? Is there a broader lesson there about fighters, about great fighters?
Dana White (01:03:07): I think that Mike Tyson is actually one of those unique guys who has crossed over. Any of these other boxers from his era, they have no way of making money other than fighting. Mike Tyson has made a lot of money outside of fighting. Tyson still has that aura. You could be at a restaurant and he walks in and you’re like, “Holy fuck. Mike Tyson’s here.” He still has that type of aura and energy in a room, and he makes lots of money outside of the ring. I think that he ends up getting these offers that he can’t refuse.
Lex Fridman (01:03:44): Oh, you think it’s financial? I mean, that’s a good question to ask. You work with a lot of fighters. For how many of them is it about money and for how many is it about the fact of the pure love of fighting?
Dana White (01:03:58): Well, the guys that get into it for the right reason are the guys who get into it for greatness. Because you want to be the fucking best. And when you’re in it for that reason, you love it and you want to be looked at as the best ever, and you have the talent, the money happens. Then you have other guys who get in, believe me, I’ve dealt with fighters who just wanted to be famous and just wanted to make money. You know what I mean? And listen, it is what it is. It’s your life and you live it the way that you want and do your thing. But the ones that are beloved are the guys who really want to be fucking great and they’re the ones that are remembered. When you look at Tyson in his early years, when he came up under Cus D’Amato, he was a student of the game.
Dana White (01:04:47): He loved everything. He became completely infatuated with the fight game. Then he became such a massive superstar, it’s almost like the whole thing starts to turn on you. All the things that come at you at a young age and that kind of money, it’s tough. It’s tough to navigate and get through. You say something like that and people are like, “Oh, poor him. He had fucking $100 million and couldn’t…” At that age and with all the shit that people talk and all the things that you got to put up with and the fame, a lot of people deal with fame, some people handle it really well and some people don’t. And the perfect example of that was Forrest Griffin and Stephan Bonner. They fought that unbelievable fight on the Ultimate Fighter. Everything blew up after that. Forrest dealt with fame really well and Stephan did not.
Lex Fridman (01:05:42): That was a special fight.
Dana White (01:05:43): It really was.
Lex Fridman (01:05:44): What do you think attracted people to that fight? That was a big leap for the UFC.
Dana White (01:05:50): It was everything.
Lex Fridman (01:05:51): It was everything.
Dana White (01:05:52): It was everything.
Lex Fridman (01:05:52): Why do you think people loved that fight? What attracted people to that fight? Why did it change everything?
Dana White (01:05:58): Well, what happened that night is that the rest of the show was a disaster. We had the co-main event and the main event. Diego Sanchez ran through Kenny Florian in seconds. Oh my God, that was terrible. And the fights that led up to that weren’t anything to talk about either. Then Stephan and Forrest got in there and just went toe-to-toe in this unbelievable slug fest live on free television when cable still mattered. And what I heard was at the time, you had people picking up the phone going, “Are you watching this show?” The numbers just started climbing. Then you got a razor-thin decision. Who’s going to win? You got the crowd stomping their feet. It sounded like a train was going through the place and everybody’s chanting, “One more round!” Me and the Fertitta brothers get together and we talk. We’re going to give them both contracts.
Dana White (01:06:52): So we give them both contracts and the place erupts. It couldn’t have been a more perfect fight at the most perfect time. It all came together. It’s almost like this was meant to be. You know what I mean? Yeah. So we had so many problems with Spike TV at the time, because halfway through the season, the president of the company got fired. All the things that we thought we were going to get that year, we had this runaway hit show. And normally at that time when you would see runaway hit shows, there’d be commercials. It’d be on billboards. It’d be on the side of buses in L.A. and New York. We got none of that. We didn’t even know if we were going to get a second season coming out of that. And when that fight was over, I swear to God, I was like, “I don’t even give a fuck. We’re going to end up somewhere now after this fight.” And we didn’t even make it out of the building that night. The Spike guys did the contract with us in the alley on a fucking napkin after the fight.
Lex Fridman (01:08:00): So you already saw the magic of the fight itself. It captured something.
Dana White (01:08:04): Once that happened and all the shit, and at that time, I didn’t know the ratings, it’s not like we were streaming and we could see, we had no idea, but I knew.
Lex Fridman (01:08:12): You just knew this was [inaudible 01:08:13].
Dana White (01:08:12): I knew .
Lex Fridman (01:08:13): What is that? It’s just two people being willing to stand toe to toe and just go to war.
Dana White (01:08:21): And when you think about what was at stake. There was a car. Remember the Kia? The winner got a Kia.
Lex Fridman (01:08:27): I don’t even remember that.
Dana White (01:08:28): That’s what was the fucking. And Stefan and Forrest, the will to win, they both wanted to win that fight so bad.
Lex Fridman (01:08:38): It was bigger than the Kia probably.
Dana White (01:08:40): Forrest drove that Kia to 200,000 miles. The biggest mistake Kia ever made was not doing a fucking commercial with Forrest Griffin about that car. Forrest Griffin loved that car so much, he drove it. I think he still has it. It’s got 200,000 miles on it, that car. You couldn’t have a better fucking commercial than that. And we reached out to them too. I said, “Kia should know about this.” They fucking…
Dana White (01:09:00): … and we reached out to them too. I said, “Kia should know about this.” They fucking blew it. You got a bunch of… You know how those guys are in the business world. They don’t fucking get anything.
Lex Fridman (01:09:09): Maybe it was about the Kia then.
Dana White (01:09:11): It was about winning. They both wanted to win the Ultimate Fighter so bad. It’s the Kia, it’s the win, it’s the contract you get, the whole thing.
Lex Fridman (01:09:22): But I think at that point, you even forget all of that. When you’re in there, you probably just, there’s a primal thing where I’m not backing down.
Dana White (01:09:31): Listen, they’re both bad dudes. They were both real fighters at the end of the day. That’s why the fight was so great. You know what I mean?
Lex Fridman (01:09:36): They just throw all the caution to the wind and just fight. Those are some of the greatest moments in the FC too when the technique is falls apart and you’re just like, well, fuck it.
Dana White (01:09:49): Well, it’s because you’re in those deep rounds. You’ve been through a war now it’s all about heart and dog, who can dig deeper and who’s got it and who wants it. I mean, we all know when that moment happens in a fight, when you see that both of these guys are fucking exhausted.
Dana White (01:10:06): And for people that are watching this, people that don’t know a lot about… Everybody thinks they know a lot about fighting. 99.9% of the people out there don’t know fucking jack shit about fighting or what it takes to do what these people do. But when you get into those later rounds and fatigue sets in, and then fatigue makes you start to fucking doubt yourself, and then you start to wonder, can I even make it through the rest of this round?
Dana White (01:10:30): And then you start to think, am I going to fucking die right now? And these kids dig fucking deep. And they just, like you said, all the other shit flies out the window and now they’re just on fucking autopilot to fight and win. Those are definitely the best fights you’ll ever see in any combat sport.
Lex Fridman (01:10:47): I mean, that saying is true. The exhaustion makes cowards of us all. I mean, there’s something about… Because I’ve competed a lot in jujitsu. There’s the violence of being hit too, but even just exhaustion, it makes you question everything.
Dana White (01:11:03): So true.
Lex Fridman (01:11:04): It just takes you to some weird place where your brain starts to think you’re going to die for sure. Your brain starts to think, why am I doing this? All these excuses, all this.
Dana White (01:11:16): I love that shit.
Lex Fridman (01:11:17): And then…
Dana White (01:11:18): I love that shit.
Lex Fridman (01:11:19): The truly heroic action is to say, “Fuck it,” in that moment and just get in there.
Dana White (01:11:24): When you think about these fights that you see in the UFC every fucking Saturday when these men and women get to this point where they’ve been in a dog fight, yet they keep fucking going and you keep trying to win. You can’t imagine what’s going on inside their heads. Self-doubt and all these other things that come into play when exhaustion sets in and they fucking power through it.
Lex Fridman (01:11:49): Yeah, those moments, sometimes they don’t have a glorious knockout at the end. But your decision in the third round or the fifth round to still keep pushing forward, not running.
Dana White (01:12:02): 100%.
Lex Fridman (01:12:03): That doesn’t matter what happened. That is a person winning a battle over themselves.
Dana White (01:12:09): So true. It’s so true, and it happens every fucking weekend. It’s so impressive. I say it all the time. The people that are involved in this sport are this much of the population. The people that make it to the top five are incredibly unique, special human beings, man. It’s fucking awesome.
Lex Fridman (01:12:31): You love gambling.
Dana White (01:12:32): I do.
Lex Fridman (01:12:35): What’s the biggest win of your gambling career, maybe psychologically, if not financially?
Dana White (01:12:42): Well, two things. I won $1,000,000 hand one night. It’s happened one time. $1,000,000 hand one night at Mandalay Bay. And then one summer I beat Caesars for 12 million throughout the summer.
Lex Fridman (01:13:02): Throughout the summer.
Dana White (01:13:03): Yeah. Then I’m on a pretty good run right now too.
Lex Fridman (01:13:07): Now this is blackjack?
Dana White (01:13:08): Yeah.
Lex Fridman (01:13:09): What’s the biggest loss?
Dana White (01:13:13): The biggest loss was… Here is… I would call this the biggest loss for many different reasons. This is what you live and you learn in life and you figure things out as you go along. One night I’m over at the Rio and they got big suites over there. I go over there with some buddies and we got one of the suites and we have some dinner and we start drinking. We’re having some drinks at dinner and blah, blah, blah. Starts to ramp up, having a good time.
Dana White (01:13:48): And I make my way down to the Thai limit room. We start gambling. And I continue to drink having a blast. I end up leaving and going home that night, and I lost 80 grand. I wake up the next morning, I’m like, fuck. Those motherfuckers got me for 80,000 last night and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
Dana White (01:14:15): I’m at work the next day and the host over there calls me and he says, “Hey, Dana, are you coming back? Do you still need the room that you guys had where you ate and all this shit you stay?” And I said, “No, I don’t need the room, but don’t get too comfortable with my fucking 80 grand. I’m coming back for it.”
Dana White (01:14:35): Dead fucking silence on the other end of the phone. And he’s like, “Dana, you lost $3 million last night.” I said, “What the fuck are you talking about? I only have a million and a half dollar credit line.” He goes, “Yeah, you made us call the GM of the hotel and you started calling him a fucking pussy and da, da, da, da, da.” And I went, “Yeah, no, that sounds like something I would do. Yeah.”
Lex Fridman (01:15:06): That’s the real number.
Dana White (01:15:08): That was the real number. And then there’s been a lot of cases where people are in Vegas and they’re like, “Oh, I lost all this money. And they were giving me free drinks and I drank too much, and I was taken advantage of.” No, you stupid motherfucker. Man up. You got fucking drunk. Alcohol is free, but you don’t have to fucking drink it. You know what I mean? And this was a huge learning lesson for me. I never drank again when I was playing cards after that night. But yeah, when you asked me, that’s the one that stands out…
Lex Fridman (01:15:08): That one came back right now.
Dana White (01:15:50): In my head the most as far as having a bad loss. And then of course I said, “Call the GM,” and I started calling him a pussy at three o’clock in the morning.
Lex Fridman (01:16:00): Of course you did.
Dana White (01:16:00): That is something I would absolutely do.
Lex Fridman (01:16:03): How do you deal with those psychologically? When you gamble, maybe this applies to fighting too, do you love winning or hate losing more?
Dana White (01:16:14): They go hand in hand. The way that I play is I live in Vegas, so 2024 is a war for me. I go to war in ’24. Okay. All these nights that I play are little battles inside the war that I will fight in ’24. Now, at the end of the year, we will tally up all these little battles and see where I stand on wins and losses.
Dana White (01:16:43): And there’s lots of talk out there about my gambling, places that I’ve been kicked out of and things like that. And I do pretty well. I do pretty well, but it’s what I like to do. I don’t gamble in a way that I would ever hurt myself or hurt my family. I’m sure you’ve heard the Norm MacDonald stories. Norm MacDonald lost his entire personal wealth four times or something like that. Yeah, that’s not going to happen to me.
Lex Fridman (01:17:20): You manage it, but just psychologically you’re able to be even keel.
Dana White (01:17:24): Yeah. When I win, it’s awesome. It’s always great to win. Winning is a great feeling in business, in sports, in life, and definitely in gambling. Losing is never fun, but it’s part of the game. You know what I mean? If you want to be in the game and it’s sports, it’s business or whatever, there’s going to be wins and there’s going to be losses. And you have to take them both in stride and you have to be able to…
Dana White (01:17:54): There’s a of people… When you gamble and you lose and you go into a deep, dark depression, I’ve seen this with guys that do it, get depressed. Gambling isn’t for you. If you are the type of person that’s on social media and people say horrible things to you and you get depressed and da, da, you shouldn’t be on social media. You know what I mean?
Dana White (01:18:17): These are all part of being in the game. When you’re in the fucking game, great things happen and really bad things happen, and you got to take it all in stride. And you got to pick yourself up the next day, strap your fucking shoes back on and get out there and go to fucking war again. That’s how it works.
Lex Fridman (01:18:33): That’s some goggin shit right there. All right. I love that motivational speech.
Dana White (01:18:38): It’s the truth though.
Lex Fridman (01:18:39): Yeah, it is.
Dana White (01:18:39): It’s the truth though.
Lex Fridman (01:18:41): It’s true.
Dana White (01:18:41): Listen, every day when you get out of bed, life’s standing right there to kick you in the fucking face, man. Could be anything. Could be you get up and you walk downstairs, you got a fucking flat tire, and you’re late for work, and you got this and that. Life is going to throw all kinds of crazy shit at you, and you have to be ready for it, and you got to fucking deal with it. You can’t curl up into a ball. You can’t run away from it. You can’t hide. You have to take all this shit head on. You have to get up…
Dana White (01:19:06): Every day when I get up out of bed, I strap up and I’m getting ready for fucking war. Because I know I’m coming in here. I know a bunch of bad shit’s going to happen that I’m going to have to fucking deal with. And if that’s not bad enough, when I finally get out of here, I’m probably going to go to the casino and I’m going to get into another fucking war. You know what I mean?
Dana White (01:19:24): I thrive in chaos. I actually love chaos. Everybody talks about retiring. Fuck that shit. What am I going to do when I retire? What would I do? I like to go to war. I like to battle. I like to win. Sometimes I lose, but then I have to come back from the loss. And I love to build brands. I love to set short term and long-term goals and then knock them all down. This is just the stuff that excites me.
Dana White (01:19:53): And whether it’s business or gambling. I like being a fan of things too. I like live music. When I find a band that I like, I get excited to go watch the band live or a Celtics game. I love the fucking Boston Celtics, and I love going to the games and watching them. This is the year. Hopefully we’re going to fucking win it this year. These are all things that make me happy and excite me in my life.
Dana White (01:20:20): And it’s funny because there’s this post that I post maybe three, four nights a week. I also love this city. I can’t tell if the city of Las Vegas was built for me or I was built for this fucking city, but I love it. And there’s this turn on Summerlin Parkway every night, and it’s dark. And from there you can see the entire city, and it’s all fucking lights and it’s badass.
Dana White (01:20:44): And I’m usually driving home after a fucking incredible day. This amazing day and this unbelievable fucking life I have, and I have this just moment of gratitude. Every time I take that turn and I’m like, God damn, I love this fucking city. And just every night when I go home, I’m just so happy and grateful for this life that I have.
Lex Fridman (01:21:06): You’re grateful, you’re celebrating. Even if the day is full of shit, full of problems, you have to solve all of this. You’re still able to put that behind you, just turn it off?
Dana White (01:21:14): I love that too. I love problem solving. I love taking things that seem impossible. Fucking what’s been shit on more than this company right here? Power Slap, right? This thing’s a fucking beast. It’s an absolute beast. In 13 months, that’s the most successful thing I’ve ever been a part of. And I love every fucking minute of it, especially the negativity. I love negativity.
Lex Fridman (01:21:45): You almost feed on it. That’s great. That’s great. You’re built for this.
Dana White (01:21:48): I eat that shit for breakfast, man. I love it.
Lex Fridman (01:21:51): What’s your favorite movie about Vegas, Casino?
Dana White (01:21:55): Yeah, it would have to be Casino. No doubt about it.
Lex Fridman (01:21:57): Yeah.
Dana White (01:21:58): You ever see a movie that changed your life, that actually impacted your life in some way, shape, or form?
Lex Fridman (01:22:05): Probably.
Dana White (01:22:06): Which one?
Lex Fridman (01:22:07): That’s a good question. I’ll have to think. Well, I have a lot, a lot. Casino could be one of them, probably taught me about women. Forrest Gump for me is a simple movie, but it was a really good movie to show. Because I’ve been really fortunate in my life over and over and over, and I don’t think I deserve any of it. I just always felt like Forrest Gump. When I finally saw it really connected with me. It was like, okay, this universe works in weird ways and stuff just materializes. And you just be good to people, put that good karma out there and it happens for you. That was a movie like that.
Dana White (01:22:46): I’m actually very superstitious about that. I believe that what you put out, you get back. And I believe that when you have, you should take care of other people and you should always try to bring people up with you and all that kind of stuff. But the movie that changed the whole trajectory of my life was Vision Quest.
Lex Fridman (01:23:08): Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. That’s a good one too. Yeah.
Dana White (01:23:10): Vision Quest, man, I fucking love that movie.
Lex Fridman (01:23:11): That’s a good one.
Dana White (01:23:13): It’s basically, it’s telling the story of a kid who really wasn’t anybody in high school, and nobody knew who he was. He wasn’t popular or any of that kind of shit. And he decided that that was the year that he was going to make his mark. And he was a good wrestler at 178 pounds, but he was going to move down to 160-something to take on the Shute, the scariest guy and the whatever.
Dana White (01:23:34): But there’s all these little things in the movie that really lay out what life is all about. One of the parts is he’s in a class and the teacher’s talking about some poem. And he says, “What does this poem mean to you?” Well, this girl’s walking through the park and all the leaves are falling off the trees, and she realizes that she’s going to die someday. And that a lot of people think they have all this time so they fucking waste it, and they never go out and do what they really set out to do or accomplish or do anything great in their life. That’s one meaning.
Dana White (01:24:11): Then he’s got the guy that he works with at work, he’s cutting weight and his nose is bleeding and all this shit. And this guy keeps going, “Why the fuck are you doing this? Pick that thing up and eat it like a fucking man. This is ridiculous. I don’t know why you’re doing this to yourself, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” Then when he meets the girl and he gets to the point where he feels like he wants to quit, where does he go? He goes to that guy’s fucking apartment because he knows when he shows up at this guy’s apartment, he’s going to go, “Yeah, fuck this shit.”
Dana White (01:24:37): No, he went to work. He went to work to talk to him, and he wasn’t at work. He took the night off. He shows up at the shitty little fucking apartment that the guy lives in and the guy’s putting a suit and tie on and shit. He’s like, “They said you called in sick. What’s going on?” He’s like, “Well, yeah. Aren’t you wrestling this guy tonight?” And he’s like, “Yeah, but why would you? You’re going to get docked a night’s pay and all this other shit.” He says, “You know what, man?” Then it all gets laid out. I get the goosebumps even telling you this fucking part of it.
Lex Fridman (01:25:04): Is that the Pele speech?
Dana White (01:25:05): Pele. Yeah. When he’s saying about, “I’m fucking cooking in an overnight hotel fucking thing, and I live in this shitty apartment. A human being can lift himself upside down and backwards and kick a ball into a fucking net, and the whole stadium goes crazy. And this guy runs around. And I’m sitting here in my fucking apartment alone and I start crying. Yeah. I start crying.”
Dana White (01:25:26): The guy who’s been shitting on him the whole fucking time actually really respects him for what he’s done and sees what this kid is capable of doing and all this shit. This fucking movie spoke to me on so many different levels. And I think it’s probably the most underrated movie of all time when you really break down the meaning of what this movie is about. And it really fucking spoke to me.
Lex Fridman (01:25:49): That’s probably the greatest movie on one-on-one combat…
Dana White (01:25:53): I would agree.
Lex Fridman (01:25:54): Ever made.
Dana White (01:25:55): I would agree. And especially if you can really hear the messages that it’s giving you in this movie, it’s excellent. You know it’s funny. They just did the… And I saw this after the fact, which completely fucking pissed me off. They did the 25 year or the 30-year thing. It was filmed in Spokane, Washington. They showed the movie at a movie theater there, and the cast members came out and spoke about it. I would’ve fucking flown there for that. Are you shitting me? I’d have been there in fucking 30 seconds to go up there and be a part of that. That movie literally changed my life.
Lex Fridman (01:26:30): Yeah, I suppose me too. It made me want to wrestle. I mean, probably the reason I was… Maybe it made me fall in love with wrestling.
Dana White (01:26:39): Well, you know what’s funny? I wasn’t even into wrestling at all, and I didn’t have to be for that movie to…
Lex Fridman (01:26:44): Yeah, it’s this basic human story.
Dana White (01:26:46): It’s such a great movie.
Lex Fridman (01:26:47): I mean, that’s what fighting does. It brings out the basic, the humanity of a person really, for the people that choose to step up and step in the ring. And then chase greatness and actually do it from against the long odds. That’s why it’s a beautiful game.
Dana White (01:27:03): And it’s so true. I mean, when you think about, I’m 54 years old right now, like that. I mean, it just fucking flew by. And you think when you’re young that you have all this time. You have no time. There’s no time. I mean one of the quotes on the wall in the gym in there is, “There is no tomorrow,” from Rocky III. There is no tomorrow. Fuck that shit. Let’s get all this shit done today.
Lex Fridman (01:27:33): Do you think about your death?
Dana White (01:27:35): Man, I’m not afraid of death. Not even a little bit. I’m not afraid of it. I don’t know if that’ll be the case when I’m facing it, when I’m looking down the barrel of it, laying in a hospital bed somewhere.
Lex Fridman (01:27:49): But for now, just squeezing as much as you can out of it.
Dana White (01:27:52): 100%. I literally, I don’t even like to sleep. My life is so fucking awesome, I don’t even want to go to bed at night. I don’t even want to go to sleep. I want to stay up fucking, I wish I could do fucking 24 hours and never have to sleep. That’s how much I love my life.
Lex Fridman (01:28:05): What has watching thousands of fights over the years taught you about human nature, about us humans?
Dana White (01:28:12): I don’t care what color you are, what country you come from or what language you speak, we’re all human beings. Fighting’s in our DNA. We get it and we like it. And it’s true. Fighting is in our DNA. It’s a part of who we are.
Dana White (01:28:23): And no matter where you are, if a fight breaks out, it creates this fucking energy, this buzz, this sense of fear. I mean, a lot of different emotions happen in people when fights break out. But one thing that is always the case, everybody’s watching, man. Everybody’s, fucking all of their eyes are on the fight.
Dana White (01:28:46): I mean, we were just in Mexico, fucking fight broke out in the good seats right here with these seats that are super expensive. And security never fucking came. They just let these guys fight until they gassed out. And then everybody put their chairs back together and snapped back down and fucking. I literally got up from my table, walked over, and was watching this fight at the fights.
Lex Fridman (01:29:09): At the fights. I mean humans fight and humans love watching fighting.
Dana White (01:29:14): Absolutely. And that was my thought process going into buying the UFC, and I believe that this would work everywhere. And thank God we were right.
Lex Fridman (01:29:23): Well, Dana, thank you for bringing this very human thing of fighting, the art of it, the science of it, the heroic stories, the vision quest stories of it all.
Dana White (01:29:34): Boom.
Lex Fridman (01:29:35): Really appreciate you talking today, brother.
Dana White (01:29:36): Thank you. Pleasure, buddy. Thank you for the kind words.
Lex Fridman (01:29:40): Thanks for listening to this conversation with Dana White. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from Muhammad Ali. “Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in a world they’ve been given than to explore the power they have to change it. Impossible is not a fact, it’s an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration, it’s a dare.” Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
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