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第 439 期·中文精讀

克雷格·瓊斯：巴西柔術、200 萬美元獎金、CJI、ADCC、烏克蘭與網路挑釁

Craig Jones: Jiu Jitsu, $2 Million Prize, CJI, ADCC, Ukraine & Trolling

柔術選手談職業賽事與高額獎金、ADCC 與 CJI 的競爭，以及對烏克蘭和網路挑釁言論的看法。

克雷格·瓊斯··官方文稿·精讀約 1.9 萬字 · 閱讀 42 分鐘
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中文精讀由 AI 基於原始訪談改寫，非官方翻譯，可能存在偏差或錯誤；表述以原音訊與官方文稿為準。說明

他帶著一百萬美金現金，上了一檔全球最火的播客。錢裝在一個袋子裡，沒有保鏢，沒有安保團隊，就他自己開著車，把袋子從某個從未見過面的陌生人家裡運到喬·羅根（Joe Rogan）的錄製現場。他還提前把現金照片發給了所有認識的人。事後被問起這算不算安全風險，他想了想，說：是挺大風險的。

這個人叫克雷格·瓊斯（Craig Jones）。澳大利亞人，職業柔術選手，拿過多次世界級無道服纏鬥冠軍，同時大概是整個格鬥圈最會講段子的傢伙。在這次和萊克斯·弗裡德曼（Lex Fridman）的對話裡，他的故事遠比「會耍嘴皮子的柔術運動員」這個標籤複雜。他把一場總獎金超過兩百萬美元的柔術賽事，硬生生安排在了柔術界最負盛名的 ADCC 比賽的同一個週末；他兩次跑去烏克蘭，一次比一次深入前線，最近的時候離俄軍陣地只有七百米；他被炮彈震到整棟樓搖晃，被友軍的跳彈擦過腿邊，然後笑著說，如果真被打死了，當地士兵都不知道該怎麼跟醫院解釋這具外國人的屍體。

這些荒誕敘事底下，藏著他對於一項小眾運動最認真的改造實驗。

先把鏡頭拉回哈薩克：一場馬背上的瘋狂冒險

故事的起點在哈薩克，不在烏克蘭。

瓊斯和攝製組在中亞拍一檔旅行紀錄片，撞上了當地一項古老運動，叫「科克博魯」（Kok boru）。規則大致是這樣：把一頭羊或山羊的頭和四肢砍掉，用它的軀幹當作「球」，最多上千名騎手騎著馬在場上瘋狂爭搶，誰把這具動物屍體丟進對方球門就算贏。老式的球門是水泥做成的，現在簡化成標記。當地富商會為獲勝者開出鉅額獎金。騎手和馬都是從很小的時候開始專業訓練。

瓊斯從沒騎過馬。攝製組原本只想拍一段「看起來像要進馬場」的鏡頭，結果那個喝過酒的替身演員在接過馬韁的時候，直接把他送進了馬群。他穿著 Biggie Smalls 那種鮮豔的 COOGI 花紋毛衣，在一群憤怒的哈薩克騎手中間顯得格外扎眼。有人認出了他，開始喊「波拉特」（Borat）。那部 2006 年的電影至今在哈薩克是一段創傷記憶。

他當時的確沒在講波拉特的笑話，但他承認自己那套幽默方式確實容易被這樣聯想。這群騎手顯然不太喜歡一個外國人跑來參加他們從小訓練的比賽，那筆獎金對他們意義重大；而馬群互相撞擊的瞬間，他感受到了一種非常具體的危險。

拍完這一段，他們準備換個地方。看著地圖，烏克蘭就在旁邊。瓊斯此前收到過在烏克蘭辦柔術研討會的邀請，但那是在全面戰爭爆發之前。他說，走，我們去那兒做一場慈善活動，和當地的人一起訓練，真正親眼看看那邊在發生什麼。

七百米，是距離前線最近的一次

他們最終辦成了烏克蘭歷史上規模最大的一場柔術研討會。在戰爭狀態下辦成這件事，瓊斯自己都覺得不可思議。

研討會結束後，一位正在前線服役計程車兵兼朋友問他：這本來是把收益捐給士兵的活動，可我們人就在前線，你要不要來看看？這位朋友的原話是：我不能保證你能活著回來，但我能保證你會玩得開心。瓊斯的回答是：「這就是我需要聽到的全部。」

他們去了。離前線最近的地方是七百米。

瓊斯描述在烏克蘭最日常的一件事：你會在手機上下載一個防空警報 App。任何時候都可能響起，可能是無人機飛過來了，可能有戰機升空，可能有導彈正在飛。導彈還會中途改變方向，所以警報響起來的時候，你根本不知道它到底是不是衝你來的。警報照發，所有人照常被提醒。整個國家就是這麼一種狀態：你生活在一個持續的恐懼之下，同時又必須繼續過正常的生活。

第一次旅行中，最震動的時刻發生在基輔一家酒店的健身房裡。瓊斯正在那兒練器械，一枚高超音速導彈被愛國者防禦系統擊落，墜落點離酒店只有大約五分鐘路程。整棟樓和連著樓體的健身房都在劇烈搖晃。一部分人開始驚慌，大多數人跑到外面去看發生了什麼，儘管那並不是被建議的做法。

事後，當地士兵帶他去看了其中一個彈片落點：地面上留下一個巨大的凹坑，主要碎片已經被清理掉。瓊斯說他不知道這合不合法，但他還是偷偷帶走了一小塊導彈殘骸。他到現在都不記得扔哪兒了，但當時想著這玩意兒可能觸發機場安檢警報，還是照拿不誤。

關於愛國者系統，他講了一句挺重的話：「那一刻我腦子裡想的是，看看它擊落的是什麼。萬一沒有它，會是什麼樣？」那段時間美國國會還沒有透過新一輪對烏援助，所有人都在心裡盤算同一個問題：這些防空導彈什麼時候會打完？

真正讓他成為網路攻擊靶子的，是他在基輔拍的那段影片。評論區出現了大量指控：「你被烏克蘭政府收買了。」瓊斯的反應是，人們不明白生活必須繼續。基輔大部分時候是正常的，前線很遠，城市如果不努力照常運轉，那些村莊和城市裡的生活就真的會停止。

萊克斯在對話中補了一句，這不是基輔獨有的現象。哈爾科夫、頓涅茨克，甚至克拉馬托爾斯克，人們都會很快適應戰爭。人無法長時間忍受痛苦，所以會自動調整，並開始珍惜自己仍然擁有的東西。

切爾諾貝利：一個不宜前往的地方是如何被撬開的

如果說前線還算「可以理解的冒險」，那去切爾諾貝利就完全是另一個性質的事了。

瓊斯說，戰爭初期俄軍有部隊從白俄羅斯方向穿過切爾諾貝利，那段時間全世界都在擔心輻射洩漏。如今俄軍撤回，但切爾諾貝利周邊幾乎被地雷鋪滿。以遊客身份，或者說以他這種「白痴身份」，本來根本不該出現在那種地方。

他去了。過程是：四個人，兩個安全崗哨，失敗一次，才最終成功。

第一次嘗試由一個特種部隊出身的朋友帶著，闖過了兩道檢查站，第三道被攔下來，直接被威脅逮捕。瓊斯說那次攔截完全正當，他們本來就沒有任何理由去那裡。第二次，一位他不願透露姓名的聯絡人出手了。這位聯絡人聽說了他的慈善活動，幫忙打通了渠道。最終他們進入切爾諾貝利，當然帶著一堆拍攝限制，因為切爾諾貝利曾經的軍事衝突仍然是個敏感話題。

他描述那個地方：完全的荒蕪。曾經切爾諾貝利在旅遊時代是有團的，會擠滿遊客，但他們得到的是私人導覽，所以那種廢棄感是真實的、完整的。瓊斯對切爾諾貝利的興趣源頭挺有時代感：使命召喚，加上 HBO 那部《切爾諾貝利》劇集和一堆紀錄片。

萊克斯提到烏克蘭如今有一個更黑暗的雷區問題：戰爭結束後，幾十年的排雷工作依然是個巨大難題。瓊斯補上一句更具體的判斷：如果一個區域一旦觸發地雷就可能導致輻射洩漏，那它在排雷優先順序列表上的位置一定會非常靠後。切爾諾貝利的旅遊時代，不知道要等到什麼時候才能回來。

赫爾松：五百米外的爆炸，和那個把頭盔扔回皮卡後座的人

第二次去烏克蘭，瓊斯走得更深。

他們先去了敖德薩，那是一座被反覆襲擊的城市。拍攝素材裡有一段讓他印象深刻的畫面：黃昏時分，一位中年男人穿著內褲、挺著啤酒肚，在海邊跳一種奇怪的舞蹈。瓊斯形容那畫面「刺眼，但我欣賞它」。

這趟行程裡更硬核的部分，是一位當地警察局長親自邀請他去赫爾松。局長的原話是：如果你想看真正的激烈場面，我可以親自陪你去赫爾松。

瓊斯做了個決定：他沒有對攝影師說實話。他告訴攝影師這是一趟安全行程，好讓攝影師轉告未婚妻時，對方不會擔心。

結果如何？

他們長途南下，中途在一個城市換乘裝甲車。來接他們的人開玩笑說：「給我一個能幫你收屍的人的電話號碼吧。」瓊斯說，那語氣是在開玩笑，但他覺得對方是認真的。瓊斯的回應是：不用了，真被擊中大概也剩不下什麼可收的。

赫爾松戰前人口約二十五萬，如今降到五萬左右，大部分是軍人。他們去了當地警局，那棟樓的上半部分已經被摧毀，辦公搬到了地下掩體。然後一位當地人帶他們做城市導覽。當然，有拍攝限制：任何最近被毀的建築畫面都不能流出，因為那會幫助對方校準下一發炮彈的落點。赫爾松幾乎在所有俄軍武器的射程之內，無人機、炮彈、導彈，全都夠得著。

出發前，那個人做了一件事：在車頂裝上反無人機裝置，看著就不怎麼讓人放心。然後他從後備箱裡拿出一個頭盔。瓊斯以為那是給他的，結果對方把頭盔往後鬥裡一扔，說：「你不需要這個，反正你也會死。」

瓊斯當時的內心活動是：「我剛做出來的人生決定真棒。」

他們沿著第聶伯河開，最近處離前線一公里。就在這時，他們聽到炮擊。瓊斯說，坐在裝甲車裡，聲音被車體隔絕，聽起來比實際距離遠。他們看到遠處有煙，但看起來還很遠。司機把車開到一棟大樓的背角，避開可能的彈道。瓊斯以為一切安全。然後又是兩發，落得很近，聲音非常大。司機開始用無線電確認路況，接著他們全速撤離。瓊斯說，他是在司機猛踩油門、開始做規避動作的那一刻，才真正意識到自己身處危險。

事後翻譯告訴他：那輪炮擊造成一人死亡、數人受傷，落點離他們不到五百米。無線電裡的指令是：結束行程，立即返回警局。

一把火箭筒和一輛拉達，構成了本次採訪最荒誕的營銷

關於這段烏克蘭之行，還有一個必須講的段落：他們是怎麼用戰爭現場來做比賽營銷的。

瓊斯搞到了一輛蘇聯時代的拉達（Lada），把它拖到靶場，車身上刷滿了對手賽事 ADCC 的 logo，然後用火箭筒對著它開火。他說這是一次「非常有創意，也非常危險的營銷活動」，順帶調侃一句，可口可樂和百事應該不會這麼幹。

細節是：他們先用火箭彈打，有一枚卡在車底沒爆，隨時可能被觸發。他們得想辦法讓車燒起來，好拍到「對手賽事的 logo 在燃燒」這個鏡頭。先是往車上澆汽油，對著油箱開槍，沒成功。後來把一個浸了汽油的布條點著，從被炸開的後車窗扔進去。扔完之後兩人往遠處跑，那個特種部隊的朋友突然喊停：「等等，沒炸。」他們又靠回去繼續點火。等他們再往車走的時候，車子突然轟然著火。朋友喊：「跑，跑，跑。」

然後是更危險的橋段。他們跟靶場的人說好，留出大約十分鐘讓他們在燃燒的車前拍照。結果要麼是對方沒等滿十分鐘，要麼是他們自己超時了，靶場開始射擊其他靶，子彈的跳彈從頭頂飛過，其中一顆落在瓊斯腿邊。他說：「行吧，撤。」

回頭看這一幕，瓊斯注意到當地士兵事後說的一句更冷的話：「兄弟，你要是被打了，我們只能把屍體丟到醫院，根本沒法解釋你為什麼在這兒炸車。」

戰爭教會他的事：士兵不是另一個物種

萊克斯問他，親眼看到戰爭之後，這些經歷改變了他什麼。

這是這次採訪裡最不耍嘴皮子的段落之一。

他說，過去自己會不自覺地把軍人想成「某種不同的人」。在烏克蘭真正交談之後，這個距離感被摧毀了。他的朋友羅曼（Roman），八年沒在烏克蘭生活，人在法國，有妻子、有女兒，生活安穩。戰爭爆發後，羅曼自願回國，為的是保護仍留在烏克蘭的母親和弟弟。

瓊斯說，澳大利亞和美國現在沒有強制徵兵，那邊的人看戰爭的方式完全不同。烏克蘭有大量被徵召的普通士兵，他們就是日常生活裡的普通人，只是被塞進了一個瘋狂的處境裡。像羅曼這樣主動回去的，出於一種他很難從澳大利亞視角理解的責任感：俄羅斯軍隊已經在國境之內，保護家人和土地成了某種不可能逃避的義務。

關於士氣，他給的畫面並不樂觀。有「戰鬥疲勞」，也有士兵們自己說的那句話：所有英雄都死得早。真正願意犧牲自己的人，往往是最先被帶走的。他們對戰爭長度的判斷是：前線移動兩百米可能需要六個月。感覺這場仗會一直打下去。

另一面更讓他震動：當烏軍截獲俄軍無線電通訊時，會發現有些俄軍士兵知道自己正在被派往某個必死的位置，無線電裡說得清清楚楚，但他們還是向烏軍陣地走過去。這種場面讓他想起二戰的描述，士兵被源源不斷送上去。他也看到過大量士兵自己拍的第一人稱戰壕畫面，很多不會流到網際網路上，因為裡面有重要的戰術細節。

關於裝備自籌，他描述得很具體：美國提供武器，從老式蘇聯裝備到美製裝備都有。到了個體士兵層面，如果你想要好一點的裝備，那可能就是能不能熬過這個冬天或者夏天的區別。這些錢他們得自己想辦法。所以你會看到大量士兵在社交媒體上經營賬號，透過漲粉來給營隊募捐。這在同時還是心理戰，私密的 Telegram 群組裡雙方都在展示自己對敵方做了什麼、敵方對自己做了什麼。

無人機戰爭：三百萬美元的坦克被三百美元的飛行器打掉

萊克斯把話題轉到他最關心的技術層面：FPV 無人機。

瓊斯給出的細節很具體。一架大約三到五百美元的無人機，碳纖維機身，3D 列印部件，下面掛載不同形式的武器，可以扔破片彈，也可以扔地雷。他聽說還有能燒穿車輛和坦克的液體武器，裡面的人會被活活熔化。這個描述很殘酷，更讓他震動的是經濟賬：一輛三百萬美元的俄軍坦克，可以被一架三百美元的無人機摧毀。戰爭變化的速率快得驚人。

他認為烏克蘭在「低成本無人機」這個領域是世界領先者。他們沒有預算搞那些大型精密無人機，所以 FPV 就成了絕大多數戰鬥的進行方式。無人機的攝像畫面會實時傳回，一架自殺式無人機追著人跑，整個過程都有錄影。

那位送他無人機的警察局長說過一句話，瓊斯反覆引用：「炮擊很可怕，但無人機會追著你進到建築物裡。」

萊克斯從更長遠的技術路徑延伸了這段討論：現在所有 FPV 無人機都是人操控的，但防守無人機最有效的方式，是讓 AI 來控制無人機。用 AI 指揮一群五百美元級別的無人機蜂群，技術上完全可行。他提到那些無人機燈光秀，飛行控制本來就是自主完成的，只是編排是硬編碼的。在這個基礎上疊加智慧，讓無人機能識別另一架無人機、跟蹤它、自我防禦，戰場就會變成雙方 AI 無人機群的對決。誰先掌握這項技術，誰就獲得軍事優勢。接著雙方都有了這項技術，一群對殺人毫不在意、看見什麼殺什麼的自主無人機在互相廝殺。萊克斯說，這是最讓他恐懼的可能性，尤其是把時間軸拉到十年、二十年、三十年後看。

瓊斯補充了一個戰場觀察：赫爾松的天空幾乎全是無人機。它們可以在空中等待很久，等你從建築物裡出來。如果窗戶開著，它們可以直接飛進去。室內的安全也靠不住，沒有地方可藏，它們可以等非常長的時間。

還有一個細節挺讓人不安：烏克蘭有營隊把短航程的 FPV 無人機掛到更大的無人機上，加裝訊號增強器，打擊距離能延伸到三十到四十公里。擊中你的無人機，操作者可能在很遠很遠之外。這套玩法如果被用在非戰場環境，比如針對某個公眾人物，追查來源會極其困難。

瓊斯提到特朗普遇刺未遂事件時說了句：「我當時想，下一個針對公眾人物的襲擊，可能就會以無人機的形式出現。」萊克斯接過話頭：如果真發生那種事，後果的瘋狂程度很難想象。人們對「一個持槍的人射殺目標」有既定理解框架，一架無人機呢？誰在操控？從哪裡起飛？陰謀論會瞬間爆炸。

被戰爭重塑的日常：那個被無人機聲音觸發的人

有一個畫面瓊斯描述得特別真實。

他和羅曼在烏克蘭西部城市莫爾申（Morshyn）。羅曼因為是自願入伍，獲准短暫離境。兩人在海邊，有遊客在放無人機。羅曼聽到那個聲音的瞬間，身體本能地做出反應，那是戰場條件反射的回閃。

戰爭留下的痕跡就長在這裡。它不在新聞裡，不在戰報裡，在一個人的神經系統裡。

然後他飛回美國，去辦一場兩百萬美元的比賽

如果說前半段訪談是關於戰爭與人性，後半段就是關於一項運動如何被一個人用最不講規矩的方式推著往前走。

CJI，全稱 Craig Jones Invitational，2024 年 8 月 16 日和 17 日在拉斯維加斯托馬斯·馬克中心舉行。總預算三百萬美元。兩個重量級別，兩場超級戰。每個級別的冠軍拿一百萬美元。所有參賽選手出場費一萬零一美元，外加一個「+1」名額。免費直播，YouTube、X、Meta 全平臺同步。門票收入全部捐給慈善機構，主要是癌症研究。

它的舉辦日期，和柔術界歷史最悠久、最有聲望的 ADCC 完全重疊。

起因特別瓊斯。今年早些時候，很多粉絲問他：你去不去打 ADCC？他的回答是：備戰一場大機率會輸的比賽，需要投入大量時間、精力，還有「加了類固醇的」花費。如果第一天就輸，收入是零。如果打進決賽，他進過幾次，收入是六千美元。第三名三千，第四名一千。也就是說，只有打進第二天才有錢拿。而 2022 年那屆 ADCC，他站在場上，看到的是售罄的一萬名觀眾，賽事在 FloGrappling 平臺付費直播，流媒體版權賣了多少錢他不清楚，但肯定不少。然後他回家，帶著六千美元。官方的說法是：你得到了曝光。瓊斯的回應是：曝光的方式有很多種，這只是其中一個平臺。

更讓他介意的是，ADCC 宣佈比賽場地從托馬斯·馬克中心搬到 T-Mobile 競技場。座位數從一萬一漲到一萬五六，場館升級了，運動員的獎金一分沒漲。瓊斯說他能透過自己的教學影片銷量追蹤這項運動的增長，因為買這些產品的主要是白帶和藍帶，也就是最容易被網路營銷打動的那批人，而這批人正是看 ADCC 這類賽事的主力觀眾。

於是他錄了一個影片，說不打了，順便列了一堆獎金更高的運動，包括哈薩克的科克博魯，村莊級別的比賽獎金都比這高。

回應來了。不是來自 Sheikh Tahnoun 那邊的人，而是來自現在實際運營 ADCC 的人。在夾雜著死亡威脅的回覆裡，對方說：「T-Mobile 場館要兩百萬美元，你根本不懂商業和製作。」瓊斯承認對方可能說得對，他的判斷是：兩百萬美元砸在一場柔術賽事的場館上，純屬浪費。那是 UFC 辦賽的級別，柔術還沒到那個階段。

兩人在網上吵了幾句。對方說：你要是不滿意，你自己去搞兩百萬辦一場啊。

瓊斯說：我可能真會。

然後他真的辦了。一位不願透露姓名的朋友給了三百萬美元預算。瓊斯在賽前給這位投資人發訊息說，我們不會公開你的身份。原因很簡單：任何有錢人一旦曝光，就會被人要錢，或者被人要更多錢。這位投資人唯一的訴求是：享受這種挑釁的樂趣，同時為柔術這項運動做點貢獻。

他們找到了托馬斯·馬克中心，也就是 ADCC 原來的場地，恰好同一個週末還空著。

接下來的操作是這一整套敘事裡最有意思的部分。瓊斯說：「ADCC 給冠軍一萬美元，那我們給所有出場選手一萬零一美元。來我們這兒露個面，拿的比贏 ADCC 還多。而且我們免費直播。」

當獎金撞上獎金：女子組獎金是怎麼被拉平的

瓊斯用了個很微妙的措辭：「以下內容，出於法律原因，我要說『據稱』。」

據他的說法，CJI 公佈之後，ADCC 做的第一件事，是把女子組獎金拉平到和男子組一樣。此前女子冠軍獎金是六千美元左右。CJI 一宣佈 Ffion Davies，也就是當時的女子冠軍，要來打超級戰，ADCC 立刻把女子獎金提到了和男子相同的水平。瓊斯自嘲說，他作為一個「多年來的女權主義活動家」，就這樣順手把柔術界的女子獎金拉平了。而那位賽事運營者此前一直說，獎金不是他能決定的，只有 Sheikh 那邊能決定，結果他一夜之間就做到了。

第二件事，據稱是開始給運動員發「出場費」。瓊斯說這在 ADCC 歷史上從沒發生過，現在為了留住運動員，他們開始這麼做了。

他特別提到一個巴西經紀人，形容對方長得像神奇四俠裡的那個角色，抽成比例是 20%。這位經紀人的操作方式是：瓊斯邀請某位運動員，他就跑去 ADCC 說，你願意出什麼價留住他？用 CJI 的報價去談更高的出場費，然後自己抽走兩成。CJI 這邊，所有人一萬零一美元，冠軍一百萬美元，統一規則，沒有談判空間。所以這位經紀人有充分的動機把人往 ADCC 送。

瓊斯看來，這件事對柔術整體是好事。CJI 從 ADCC 那裡「偷」或者「借」了一批運動員，ADCC 必須填滿自己的級別，於是很多原本沒有機會打 ADCC 的選手得到了位置。

兩個賽事的日程其實可以錯開觀看：CJI 是週五週六，ADCC 是週六週日，CJI 週六的比賽下午五點才開始。瓊斯說得很直白：所謂「逼粉絲二選一」本身就是一個營銷策略，實際上你可以兩天都看。他還順帶吐槽了 ADCC 的名人堂演講環節：你會聽到各種關於苦難的故事，就像每場柔術研討會的開場或結尾一樣，一位黑帶可能會給你講四十五分鐘他如何比醫生和律師更懂人生，會講獅子，會講做一隻謙遜的獅子。你週五看我們，週六看 ADCC，晚上回來看我摔一個巨大的女人。

Gabi Garcia、一個賭約和「三年追求」

這場超級戰是 CJI 最出圈的噱頭。對手是 Gabi Garcia，女子纏鬥史上最傳奇的人物之一，身高大約一米九，體重在 220 到 275 磅之間浮動。瓊斯當時 179 磅，身高一米八。他形容兩人合起來大概有十五到二十個世界冠軍頭銜，區別是那些冠軍都在對方那邊。

關於這場比賽的賭約，是採訪裡最荒誕的段落之一。瓊斯說：如果她贏，我個人給她一百萬美元。如果我能用足鎖降服她，我們合作拍一部 OnlyFans 的性愛錄影。萊克斯問：她同意了嗎？瓊斯說：她握手了。

萊克斯順勢問他是不是正在慢慢愛上對方。瓊斯的回答是：「這是三年的引誘，很長時間了。」他說這對那些在 Instagram 上給女孩發了好幾年私信的男性是個勵志故事：也許三年之後，你也有可能。不管對方的身高體重，堅持是關鍵。

這段對話當然是玩笑，玩笑的密度和節奏本身就是瓊斯的武器。萊克斯在採訪裡多次點出這件事：他的調侃底下有真實的尊重，他攻擊的物件必須「值得被攻擊」。瓊斯自己的解釋是：你需要一個配得上的對手。口才比你好的人不行，那樣你會輸；得挑那種本身知名度足夠高、攻擊起來不會顯得你只是在欺負弱者的人。

「巷道」：一個為纏鬥重新設計的競技場

CJI 在規則和場地上的創新，是這次訪談裡技術含量最高的部分。

場地叫「巷道」（The Alley），靈感來自空手道格鬥（Karate Combat）的斜牆擂臺。區別是空手道格鬥用的是方形坑，CJI 用的是長方形。

斜牆對纏鬥為什麼特別重要？所有纏鬥賽事最煩人的環節之一，就是「復位」。裁判把選手拉回場地中央，重新擺一個大致接近的位置。他舉了個例子：一場十分鐘的比賽裡，可能有九十秒是裁判在拉人、復位、嘗試還原一個已經滾出界外的位置。有些特別油滑的選手會專門利用這一點，在邊界附近打邊緣防守，或者專門在邊界發動抱摔，逼裁判中斷。瓊斯說，這種事在他自己身上也發生過，裁判喊停，他已經停了，對方又多挪了一點，然後復位的位置有偏差。他說這某種意義上算作弊，更多是煩人。

斜牆能緩解這個問題。被推到斜牆邊上是劣勢，很容易被摔倒。為什麼不用八角籠？籠邊摔跤可以很慢，垂直的籠網容易讓場面停滯，選手非常擅長用分腿蹲防住那個位置。他個人也不喜歡籠子用在纏鬥上，他想讓纏鬥和 MMA 有視覺區分。

別人不做坑式擂臺，卡點在觀賽視角。如果你買的是 VIP 或者高價票，斜牆在你上方，你看不到裡面。籠子可以看進去，高臺擂臺也可以，因為它是平的，但選手可能摔下臺，摔到水泥地上。瓊斯說，UFC 那種高臺加圍欄的設計，靠近邊緣本身就很嚇人，你要是想的話，也可以把對手推下去。斜牆解決了所有這些問題，同時最大限度減少裁判干擾。唯一的阻礙是建造成本。

「但你花的是別人的錢的時候，製作上是不會省錢的。」瓊斯這句自嘲很到位。他們花大價錢建了「巷道」，把周圍看臺架高，讓觀眾能俯視進去，做出了一種小型鬥獸場的效果。

在斜面上怎麼打柔術，瓊斯承認自己也不懂。他打過兩場空手道格鬥，從沒踏進過那個坑。「如果有正確的做法，我大概會選反著來。」他說有些參賽選手已經自己搭了斜面牆在家練，這是聰明的做法，一百萬美元在眼前，該投資。

另一個創新是回合制。資格賽三個五分鐘回合，決賽五個五分鐘回合。目的在激勵進攻。瓊斯不喜歡那種「早早拿到後背，然後坐著耗到結束」的比賽。很多不比賽的人意識不到這一點：如果你早早拿到一個好位置、點數領先，最理性的策略就是穩住，坐等終場。回合制會改變這個激勵結構：你拿到後背，腦子裡必須想著終結，因為每一回合都要重新開始計分，而且沒有第二名獎金，你不拿第一就是輸。

他們還借用了 MMA 的十分制打分體系。瓊斯承認很多人批評這套體系太複雜，

他們還借用了 MMA 的十分制打分體系。瓊斯承認很多人批評這套體系太複雜，觀眾看不懂，但對大眾觀眾來說，回合制打分是他們熟悉的東西，UFC 就是這麼打的，誰贏下這一回合，觀眾看得明白。再加上對拖延行為的嚴厲處罰，整套設計圍繞一個核心：讓選手想盡快終結對手。

他還提了一句挺實在的話：如果不是第一個撞線，就等於輸了。CJI 不設第二名獎金，所有選手出場費一樣，冠軍獨吞一百萬美元。這個結構逼著人往前衝，也把「穩穩守住一個位置磨到結束」這條退路直接堵死了。

為什麼免費直播：一場關於「增長」的公開實驗

瓊斯對「如何推廣一項運動」有一套完整的邏輯，這套邏輯是從單口喜劇那行借來的。

他的判斷是，那位 ADCC 運營者聲稱自己的目標是發展這項運動，做法卻是把比賽放在付費牆後面，用付費收入去買更貴的場館。在瓊斯看來，這算不上增長，只是在消耗存量。

他的參照系是 Mark Normand 和 Andrew Schulz。這兩個人免費放出自己的專場，觀眾規模暴漲，然後商業機會跟著來。瓊斯的推理很簡單：柔術現在需要一場精彩的、不在付費牆後面的比賽，把觀眾池做起來，做到一定規模之後再談付費。現在就談付費，時機根本不到。

他甚至拒絕了幾家流媒體平臺購買版權的報價。原因很直接：營銷效果太好了，他要保留免費播出這張牌。

還有一個更實際的動機，是資料透明度。在 FloGrappling 或 UFC Fight Pass 上看比賽，除非是付費點播，你永遠不會知道有多少人看了。這意味著運動員在談贊助的時候手裡沒有籌碼。CJI 免費播出之後，每位參賽選手都能看到自己出場時的觀看量曲線，可以拿著這份資料去談商業合作。瓊斯那番話的意思很清楚：把權力從賽事方手裡拿回來，交還給運動員。

萊克斯順著這個邏輯談到了國際奧委會。他說奧運會是另一種極端：一個組織辦出了不可思議的賽事，運作卻完全不透明，運動員幾乎拿不到錢，收入來自贊助和轉播權分銷，大部分內容在賽後被付費牆鎖住。他做過一期和柔道運動員的對話，在播客裡放了一小段比賽畫面，奧委會的頻道立刻發出版權警告。那些影片全被上傳成私密狀態，不公開，也不容易購買觀看。萊克斯說，奧運會的核心精神就是讓所有人可以觀看，付費牆本身違背了奧運精神。他覺得 ADCC 這類賽事也應該開放給所有人，在所有平臺上都能看到。

關於慈善，瓊斯說這屆比賽是非營利性質，他自己不賺錢，門票收入全部捐出。預算三百萬，扣掉製作成本和團隊開支，如果能賣光，能捐出一大筆。其中一個受益機構是 Tap Cancer Out。創始人 Rich Byrne 是紐約的一位黑帶，在金融界工作，曾經辦過 KASAI Grappling 賽事，自己得過侵襲性癌症，治癒之後主動提出：你們從這屆賽事利潤裡捐多少，我一比一配捐。另有一位匿名人士也承諾一比一配捐。所以門票賣得越多，捐出去的錢越多，每一張票的邊際價值都被放大了。

梅雷加利、戈登·瑞安和一場沒法定價的執念

關於 Nicholas Meregali，瓊斯講了一段完整的競技史。

兩人的淵源比大多數人知道的更早。瓊斯還穿道服比賽的時候，去阿布扎比世界職業賽打無差別級，一路打進半決賽，被 Meregali 在道服規則下碾壓。他唯一願意反覆分享的片段是：Meregali 過了他的防守，他從側面控制位置完成了一次反轉。之後他被掃倒、被降服。

多年後瓊斯離開 Danaher 團隊，Meregali 頂替了他的位置。瓊斯形容這個替代者「更有資歷、更帥、口才不如我」。兩人在 ADCC 交手，瓊斯選了更重的級別，因為想給兩個隊友讓出 88 公斤級的位置，結果那兩個隊友第一輪就都輸了。他自己在第二天開局對上 Meregali，開場三分鐘瘋狂攻擊腿，完成掃倒，搶到上位，在得分期開始前沒有點數。但他體力耗盡，Meregali 是自然體重就在 225 到 230 磅的大塊頭。那場瓊斯判定獲勝，然後在決賽輸掉。

之後兩人原本約好再打一場，價格談好了，瓊斯簽了。Meregali 選擇去度假，比賽取消。後來 Flo 又來問檔期，瓊斯說二月不行，他要幫沃爾卡諾夫斯基（Volkanovski）備戰。Flo 的建議是：先宣佈，賣票，造勢，然後你退賽。瓊斯說行，你們想怎麼搞怎麼搞。

現在再提這場比賽，瓊斯的報價是五十萬美元。「否則我懶得動。」理由落在別處：「梅雷加利是個非常嚴肅的人，他談真實性，談一些他自己都不懂的詞。對我來說，給他一個活在『自己上次贏了我』這種幻覺裡的機會，很難定價。人們說這不是錢的問題，確實不是錢的問題。是我每天早上醒來，知道他知道自己輸給過我。」

關於和 Gordon Ryan 的關係，瓊斯的回答是：我覺得我們會和好。他說 MDMA 最早是 70 年代休斯頓的伴侶治療藥物，他和 Gordon 大概需要類似的療程。萊克斯說 Reddit 網友建議他試試氯胺酮治療。瓊斯說，你讓一位治療師坐下來和他談，對方得先把接下來幾周的日程全部清空。他也提到自己確實有個「治療師」，在某個俄羅斯網站上給他開了 Vyvanse。萊克斯立刻接梗：那不是治療師，只是拼寫相同的另一種東西。

瓊斯說他覺得和 Gordon 來一場某種形式的辯論會很精彩，比如他代表卡瑪拉·哈里斯，Gordon 代表唐納德·特朗普，一場智力層面的對打。這個提議當然是玩笑，它精準地暴露了瓊斯對「衝突」的理解：衝突的目標不在分出誰更強，衝突是要把兩個人身上最有意思的部分逼出來，讓圍觀的人看得過癮。

從白帶到珊瑚帶：一條嘴炮的成長史

Reddit 上有人評價瓊斯是「珊瑚帶級別的挑釁者，只是恰好柔術也很好」。萊克斯把這個評價轉述給他，問他從白帶到黑帶到珊瑚帶，這條路是怎麼走過來的。

瓊斯的回答把源頭指向了澳大利亞的日常文化。他說在澳洲，人們每天說的話，放在別的國家可能是難以想象的冒犯。大家互相拆臺，目的就是毀掉對方這一天。整個過程是漫不經心的，來回過招。真正的勝利標誌是什麼？是對方真的被惹惱了，開始說些狠話。那一刻你會說：哦，我們抓到你了，這事兒真的戳到你了，這一局算我們贏。

所以當一個澳大利亞人進入美國的玩笑語境，瓊斯的形容是：「像 Neo 得到了駭客帝國的技能，你能看見所有東西飛過來。」他說美國人有時候把自己看得太嚴肅了，這就構成了一批「可以被拿下的受害者」。

萊克斯問他會不會在鏡子前後悔自己某次下手太重。瓊斯說不會。他給自己的定位是提供一種平衡，像是在執行某種正義，而且他也清楚，「這一切大機率會加倍的還回來」。

萊克斯在這裡說了一句挺關鍵的話：作為粉絲，他能看到調侃底下的愛，那些攻擊看起來總是好玩的。瓊斯回了一句自嘲：「我希望你能把這份愛買回來，但它已經買不回來了。」

關於他和 ADCC 組織者 Mo 的關係，瓊斯描述為「愛恨交織」。兩人曾經是關係很近的朋友，Mo 在 Danaher 團隊搬到波多黎各這件事上起過關鍵作用。關係變質的節點，是瓊斯開始公開談運動員報酬。在瓊斯看來，一個同時是 ADCC 參賽者、又實際掌控賽事運營的人，某種意義上就是你的老闆，這種結構會讓友誼變得複雜。

他曾經公開邀請 Mo 上一檔播客，把分歧講清楚。瓊斯的邏輯是：如果我覺得運動員該拿更多錢是白痴想法，你當著我的面、當著整個纏鬥世界的面告訴我。他說他個人相信透明，如果你對自己做出的商業決策有信心，就不存在什麼「被抓到把柄」的時刻。Mo 沒有接受這個邀請。

瓊斯自己算了筆賬：托馬斯·馬克中心他理解的價格是二十萬美元，T-Mobile 是兩百萬美元。場館成本漲了一百八十萬，運動員獎金零增長，這筆賬怎麼解釋？他強調自己從沒認為這個組織在偷錢，他的原話是「通往地獄的路是由善意鋪成的」，Mo 可能真心認為自己在做的事能發展這項運動，只是路徑完全不同。

扎克伯格、沃爾卡諾夫斯基和「拼圖墊」

話題轉到馬克·扎克伯格（Mark Zuckerberg）。瓊斯說兩人只在沃爾卡諾夫斯基對伊利亞那場比賽時見過，簡單聊過幾句。他對扎克伯格的評價是：有趣的人，真的熱愛柔術，熱愛 MMA，而且看起來是認真打算參加比賽的。萊克斯補充說扎克伯格有初學者心態，在這件事上很謙遜。瓊斯說 CJI 當然想請他，但他剛做完前交叉韌帶手術，八月才恢復運動，很快會重新開始訓練。

關於亞歷山大·沃爾卡諾夫斯基（Alexander Volkanovski），瓊斯的描述裡帶著很明顯的敬意。最有意思的是沃爾卡諾夫斯基的出身：你對 UFC 冠軍會有一套預設印象，但沃爾卡諾夫斯基在一個海邊小城的小館子裡訓練，地墊是那種拼接的泡沫墊。不是 American Top Team，不是任何一家大型拳館。這件事本身說明，在一個相對孤立的環境裡，靠刻苦和自我教育能達到什麼高度。瓊斯說，在他看來，沃爾卡諾夫斯基大概是有史以來最強的羽量級選手，從橄欖球背景轉過來，起步很晚。

技術層面，瓊斯說自己從他身上學到不少纏鬥交換中的東西，怎麼站起來，當然還有籠邊摔跤。訓練強度上，兩人幾乎是相反的極端。瓊斯形容沃爾卡諾夫斯基的體能訓練「完全瘋狂」，而他看過幾次沃爾卡諾夫斯基減重，那畫面很難看：運動員眼睛都快翻過去了，還在硬撐，還在說這很輕鬆。瓊斯說，看著朋友經歷這個過程是很煎熬的。

還有一個細節他講得很動人：比賽前五分鐘，沃爾卡諾夫斯基會從完全放鬆的狀態切換過來，開始說「你永遠無法把這個腰帶從我的家人身邊奪走」。他在想他的孩子。瓊斯說，你能看到一個人的人格在那幾分鐘裡發生形變。

至於沃爾卡諾夫斯基怎麼處理失敗，瓊斯說他不知道。兩人不怎麼聊這個層面，更多是朋友式的問候，你最近怎麼樣，接下來打算做什麼。他透露他們曾試圖安排一場沃爾卡諾夫斯基對 Mikey Musumeci 的纏鬥賽，放在 CJI，最後沒成。原因他不肯說，只說「本來會很精彩」。

萊克斯追問那場對馬哈切夫的比賽，瓊斯覺得沃爾卡諾夫斯基能贏。「第一場就證明了他能打贏，至少證明了這是可能的。」他說第二場裡沃爾卡諾夫斯基在纏鬥交換中完成反轉，他希望他能嘗試主動抱摔馬哈切夫。瓊斯認為沃爾卡諾夫斯基相對馬哈切夫有巨大的力量優勢，籠邊摔跤也佔優，「你也許看不到那些漂亮的技術過肩摔，但我相信沃爾卡諾夫斯基是世界上最好的籠邊摔跤手之一，或者就是最好的。」

關於達吉斯坦選手為什麼強，瓊斯的觀察是：他們就是熱愛，訓練方式本身就是一場殊死搏鬥，一寸都不肯讓。這在 MMA 和摔跤裡極其有效。但到了純柔術賽場，他們容易被腿鎖，容易掉進陷阱，過度激進或者過度迴避。瓊斯說，他們那種研磨式的訓練用於把對手壓到牆邊、摔倒、地面控制，非常完美。你一把我摔倒、貼上來，我就進入你的世界了。可我要是躺在地上，你站著必須進來，那所有危險都在你的距離之外。

萊克斯順勢問他，對上馬哈切夫這種級別的會怎樣。瓊斯答：「buggy choke，穩的。」萊克斯笑說他在開玩笑。瓊斯說他是認真的一半，還講了個故事：他最近遇到一位從韃靼斯坦來的俄羅斯選手，buggy choke 做不進去，只好在比賽最後用三角把對方弄睡了兩次。他說東歐那幫人，真的把比賽當實戰在打。

萊克斯問他理想中的柔術演進方向。瓊斯說，最讓他興奮的方向是摔跤和柔術的融合，基本上是自由式摔跤加站立降服。規則的核心應該是：永遠爭取在上位，無論是一個能帶來翻轉的降服，還是一個翻轉本身；同時避免被壓制。只要比賽圍繞這個邏輯運轉，選手在站立上主動進攻，那就是最好看、最激動人心的柔術。

萊克斯說他也是這樣覺得，兩個人都在摔、在爭奪上位的那一刻，那才像打架，不像躺著玩防守。瓊斯同意，但他很誠實地說，如果對手摔跤比他強，他就會放棄站立，直接躺下。「這就是難的地方。」萊克斯說，那你就會被全場觀眾嘲笑到死，這是你應得的。瓊斯接住這個梗：那百萬獎金應該這樣發，發給最敢冒險、最精彩的那個人。他說得半真半假，但背後那個判斷是認真的：在這個時代，社交媒體上的名聲甚至比獎牌更重要，你拖時間，你會變成梗，會被記住的是這個。

關於類固醇：一筆沒人能算清的賬

萊克斯問了個直接的問題：你覺得多大比例的選手在用類固醇？是不是百分之百？

瓊斯的回答帶著典型的兩面性：「任何贏過我的人，用的都比我多。」他說他想過測試，目的很單純，就是為了科學，看看大家到底在用什麼。但這件事極難判斷，因為有些人練在一起，彼此都不告訴對方自己在用什麼。他自己是公開告訴全世界的，結果別人看了反而說：看看你，你就沒用類固醇。這個圈子在這件事上神秘得離譜。

萊克斯接過這個話題，說了一個他討厭的部分：在沒有資料的情況下指控別人用類固醇，本質上是一種繞開證據說對方作弊的方式。而他更願意慶祝人，有些人確實沒在用，確實沒作弊，就是真的強。

瓊斯說這是自我保護機制：你寧願假設那個人用了藥，也不願意接受他的基因遠在你之上。

給新手的建議：不受傷地活過第一年

萊克斯請他假設要給一個業餘新手當教練，一年時間，怎麼練。

瓊斯的答案圍繞一個詞：longevity，長期存活。

第一是選安全的訓練夥伴。第二是理解位置，別一被壓住就驚慌。驚慌可能讓你逃出來，也可能讓你卡在某個姿勢裡把自己弄傷。如果你能找到一種節奏、一種強度、一群對的人，你有可能五年不受傷。關鍵在你怎麼動。如果你永遠用爆發式的方式移動，總有一天你會在一個無法移動的位置上爆發，然後某根組織就撕裂了。

他說自己躲過很多傷，原因很簡單：他從不以爆發式的、極度運動化的方式滾。他甚至說自己大概沒能力以那種速度移動。

這不代表他不進入劣勢位置。他會讓別人把他放進劣勢位置，只是始終保持放鬆。他說的這句話值得記下來：如果你在劣勢位置還能保持冷靜，那是一種技能。那種自信的物件不在你自己身上，而在「對方沒有能力降服你」這件事上。那是最高階別的自信，你可以把任何位置都給他。

萊克斯補充了自己的觀察：很多新手開始呼吸變重、身體繃緊，那底下其實就是恐慌。瓊斯認同，並且給出了一個很實用的機制：如果你能讓對手恐慌，你就能讓他疲勞。哪怕到了更高水平，你擔心防守被過，那種恐慌本身就會消耗你的體力。而如果你柔韌性夠好、能保持冷靜，你就不容易累，因為你不恐慌。

創新是門生意，也是種趣味

萊克斯說瓊斯擁有柔術史上最有創造性的比賽體系之一，問他怎麼發展出來的。

瓊斯的第一個答案很實在：經濟動機。如果你能做出別人不知道怎麼做的動作，你就能賣教學。第二個答案是趣味：這項運動會變得停滯、無聊。很多人到了藍帶，擅長一件事，就只做那一件事。找到有創意的贏法，本身就是最好玩的部分。

他還提到了一個更深的機制：如果你能讓對手進入一個他自己都不理解的位置，那就是他恐慌的地方。

具體的創作方法，他說得很樸素：看錄影，反覆看，然後逆向工程。如果他和某人訓練時出現那種「我完全不知道他在幹什麼」的瞬間，那就是素材。

至於他最有名的那些東西，他很誠實地表示自己沒有發明什麼，只是推廣了某些東西：特定型別的腿鎖入口、章魚防守（octopus guard）、更多從龜防開始打、以及壓制型的技術體系。他說因為自己在網上的那些笑話，他在這個專案裡獲得了一種話語權，所以當他釋出內容時，能帶動一個技術或者教學流行起來。他強調自己不想賣不真實的產品，技術必須真的有效。

萊克斯提到他教學產品的命名很有梗，比如「power bottom」，後來被迫改過。瓊斯說是 Meta 的廣告稽核不喜歡那種幽默，所以標題得軟化處理。他還補了一句，說是託管平臺那邊收到的通知。

研討會上的鯊魚：為什麼你不能隨便和陌生人滾墊子

萊克斯問他在世界各地辦研討會的時候，會不會真的和參與者一起練。瓊斯說會，這裡有個結構性的矛盾。

對參與者來說，這是一生一次的機會，可以和世界級選手過招，驗證自己。對他來說，他剛到一個城市，想認識人，想吃點當地的東西，喝兩杯，享受這個地方。館裡永遠有「狙擊手」在圍著轉。

他的處理方式是：連續滾三十分鐘，十個人，每人三分鐘，中間不休息。他的應對策略是不施加對抗，讓節奏慢下來。如果他用力量對抗力量，他自己會累；如果他完全不給對方預期的阻力，對方的節奏反而會亂，會有點懵。

真有人上來打得很兇，他的處理非常直接：如果我感覺可能受傷，我會百分之百用力做降服。他的邏輯是，你面對一個威脅，就必須用威脅回應。他提到 Ryan Hall 的做法是先警告，警告無效就動手，他認為這完全可以接受。他自己不會無緣無故傷人，但如果你打得很兇，你最好快點點。如果我感到威脅，你必須拍。我不會為了弄斷而弄斷，如果你做了可能傷到我的動作，而我拿到了一個足跟勾、我又很累，你還在掙扎想脫出來，那你就是自己找的。

萊克斯在這裡展示了自己的困惑：他想在全世界和人滾墊子，為了文化交流，為了好玩。如果他用力做降服或者用膝壓，對方接收不到這個訊號；如果他讓人降服自己幾次，對方也不會冷靜下來。他想找到解法。

瓊斯的回答很不留情面：你做不到。只要你有任何知名度，無論是在這項運動裡還是作為公眾人物，最好的辦法就是找三四個信得過的訓練夥伴，私下練。以前人們說，你練到這個水平，去全世界任何一家館都能練。那個時代結束了。現在你一進門，只要你有名字，他們就是來殺你的。訓練的本質是信任，信任來自安全的回合。陌生人是可怕的。

萊克斯說自己正在嘗試建立一種雷達，看一個人就能判斷他是不是危險。瓊斯給了個很實用的判斷標準：任何穿 Pitbull Sports 防磨服的人，或者任何來自波蘭的人，做好準備。他說他從來沒有和波蘭人有過一場「flow roll」，也就是那種輕柔的、不對抗的滾動。

然後萊克斯唸了 Reddit 上的問題：你在東歐弄斷了幾條腿？瓊斯的回答是「三四條」。是為了傳遞資訊還是個人享受？他說他不享受，但事後回想是好笑的。他的原話大意是：兄弟，我倒時差，我很累，我是為你們才來的，你們為什麼要傷我？如果我拿到降服，我不會猶豫，一秒都不猶豫。柔術是危險的東西，陌生人會發瘋，他們以為自己降服我就能拿到 CJI 的邀請。

「任何東西都可以被拿來開玩笑，只要它夠好笑」

訪談接近尾聲，萊克斯問了一個稍微大一點的問題：走遍那麼多地方，見過那麼多人，在人類互相發動戰爭、互相做出可怕事情的這個世界上，什麼讓他仍然抱有希望。

瓊斯的回答是這整場對話的題眼：

你仍然可以拿任何東西開玩笑，只要它夠好笑。這就是我在爭取的東西。人們談論取消文化，我只覺得那個笑話不夠好笑，表達不夠到位。（克雷格·瓊斯）

這句話放在這場訪談的語境裡，分量不太一樣。因為說這話的人，剛剛講完他如何在赫爾松聽到五百米外的爆炸、如何在切爾諾貝利繞過四道檢查站、如何看著一個朋友被天上無人機的聲音觸發戰場回閃。他並不是不知道世界有多沉重。他只是堅持認為，幽默在沉重的對面站著，它證明人還能繼續往前走。

萊克斯最後引用了安東尼·波登（Anthony Bourdain）的一段話作為收尾：旅行會改變你。當你穿過這一生和這個世界，你會輕微地改變一些事物，留下痕跡，無論多小；作為回報，生活和旅行也在你身上留下痕跡。

瓊斯在訪談裡反覆提到波登，說他想做的其實是一件很樸素的事：拍一檔關於柔術的紀錄片旅行系列，不靠比賽，靠人。他的判斷是，絕大多數練柔術的人並不比賽，很多棕帶黑帶連頂級選手的名字都叫不出來。靠競技永遠無法讓這項運動變大，得靠吸引那批因為健康和心理收益而練柔術的普通人。

他用了兩個類比。第一個是波登怎麼把美食文化拍成人：拍的是做菜的人，菜只是入口。第二個是山達基教：「山達基不是從 Xenu 星球開始的，是從約翰·特拉沃爾塔和湯姆·克魯斯開始的。」柔術也要先有面孔，再有教義。

這檔片子叫《Craig Jones: Gone Walkabout》。第一集在巴厘島，收益的一部分捐給當地一個叫 Akademi Kristus 的柔術館。那是一位澳大利亞人在巴厘島貧民區從一棵樹下的墊子開始教柔術，靠捐贈慢慢建起了館。他真正在意的，是教技能：他帶那些處境困難的孩子們學圖片編輯，讓他們能從網際網路上接到活。瓊斯說起這個人的時候，語氣裡那種認真藏不住。他還順帶自嘲了一句：作為澳大利亞人，我們在文化上對世界各地造成了不少破壞，我也想還一點回去。

這場實驗真正在賭什麼

把所有線索串起來看，CJI 這件事的野心比「和 ADCC 搶風頭」要大得多。

它同時在測試四件事。

第一，運動員到底值多少錢。當一個賽事願意把出場費定得比對手的冠軍獎金還高，並且公開說「沒有第二名獎金，你不拿第一就是輸」，它就是在逼整個行業重新回答這個定價問題。

第二，免費直播能不能撐起一項小眾運動。瓊斯拿單口喜劇當參照系，邏輯是先用零門檻內容把觀眾池做起來，再談變現。這條路在喜劇、播客、部分電競專案上驗證過，在格鬥類專案上還沒有人完整跑透過。

第三，資料要不要還給運動員。免費播出意味著播放量公開，每個選手都能看到自己出場時的曲線。這在商業上是一把雙刃劍，對運動員的議價能力是實打實的提升。

第四，賽制設計能不能改變行為。斜牆消除復位、回合制激勵終結、重罰拖延，這些設計共同指向同一個目標：用規則結構去改運動員的理性選擇，而不靠口號。

這四件事裡任何一件成了，柔術的商業生態就會往某個方向挪一點。四件都成了，那就是一次結構性變化。四件都沒成，瓊斯至少留下了三百萬美元的一地雞毛和一段很好笑的故事，而他大機率會覺得，這也不算太虧。

採訪裡有一句話他說得很輕，位置卻很關鍵。萊克斯問他怕不怕因為獎金太高，選手反而打得保守。瓊斯說：這筆錢是我一位非常慷慨的朋友給的，我跟他們說得很清楚，除非你們上去真想弄死對方、把所有東西都押上，否則我不會再辦第二次。

這句話暴露了整件事的脆弱之處。它高度依賴一個人的意志、一個人的錢、一個人的判斷，以及一個人願意被別人討厭的程度。這算不上制度，屬於個性驅動的實驗。它能證明一件事是可能的，很難證明一件事是可複製的。

不過話說回來，很多運動的職業化程序，最開始都是這麼起來的。

如果你想從這篇文章裡拿走點什麼

  • 看比賽的話，CJI 是免費的，YouTube、X、Meta 都能看，時間是 8 月 16 日到 17 日，拉斯維加斯托馬斯·馬克中心。ADCC 是 8 月 17 日到 18 日，兩場日程並不完全衝突，CJI 週六的比賽下午五點才開始。真想看柔術，兩天都能看。
  • 如果你在練柔術，先別急著追求強度和成績。瓊斯那句「五年不受傷才叫長期主義」值得貼在館裡。選安全的訓練夥伴，保持放鬆，別用爆發式的動作去過每一個位置。你在劣勢位置還能冷靜，這才是真正的自信。
  • 如果你去世界任何一家館訓練，請把「我是來交流的」寫進節奏裡。出名的人不需要你證明自己，他們需要的是安全。你上去三分鐘全力衝，換來的只會是對方認真做降服。
  • 如果你在做任何一個小眾領域的內容或商業，瓊斯的邏輯可以直接搬：先把門檻拿掉，讓觀眾免費進來，把觀眾池做起來，再談變現。同時把資料公開給你的創作者或運動員，讓他們能拿這份資料去談自己的價值。短期少賺的錢，換的是整個生態的議價能力。
  • 如果你在組織任何形式的比賽或評比，認真想一次賽制本身在激勵什麼。你懲罰什麼、獎勵什麼、是否設第二名獎金、如何處理邊界和中斷，這些細節加起來，比任何一條宣傳語都更能決定參與者會怎麼打。
  • 如果你在做一個帶公益屬性的專案，把配捐機制設計進去。Tap Cancer Out 那種「你捐多少我配多少」的結構，能讓每一張票的邊際價值翻倍，也讓買票的人知道自己那一份被放大了。
  • 最後一條，關於幽默。瓊斯對「取消文化」的判斷未必人人認同，他提供了一個可操作的檢驗標準：一個玩笑失敗，往往不是因為它觸碰了邊界，只是因為它不夠好笑、表達不到位。想開玩笑之前，先把這句話在心裡過一遍。

兩千多年前，有人在地中海邊上問什麼是勇氣。今天，一個澳大利亞人給出的答案是：帶著一袋現金上別人的播客，跑到離前線七百米的地方看無人機，然後回到拉斯維加斯，把兩百萬美元擺在一張桌子上，說，來，讓我看看你們到底有多想贏。

這件事未必優雅，未必穩妥，也未必成功。它至少證明了一件事：一項運動的命運，有時候握在一個願意被所有人討厭、並且真的很好笑的人手裡。

文稿來自 Lex Fridman 官網公開發布的官方 Transcript（含說話人與時間戳）。
Craig Jones (00:00:00): I like to match looks from time to time. Lex Fridman (00:00:04): Thank you. Craig Jones (00:00:04): In an homage. Lex Fridman (00:00:05): You look sexy. How many legs did you break in Eastern Europe? Craig Jones (00:00:09): Three or four. Lex Fridman (00:00:11): To send a message or just for your own personal enjoyment? Craig Jones (00:00:14): If she wins, I’ll personally give her a million dollars. If I can foot lock her, we’re going to collaborate together in an OnlyFans sex tape. Lex Fridman (00:00:27): Did she agree to this? Craig Jones (00:00:28): She shook on it. Lex Fridman (00:00:30): You do have an OnlyFans channel. Is that still up? Craig Jones (00:00:32): After August 17th? It’s going to be fire. Lex Fridman (00:00:35): It’s going to be on fire. Craig Jones (00:00:36): Honestly, when we talk about secret investor, I think that could fund the entire tournament. Lex Fridman (00:00:40): I missed all that. What gives you hope? Craig Jones (00:00:42): That you can still make fun of anything as long as it’s funny. Lex Fridman (00:00:48): The following is a conversation with Craig Jones, martial artist, world traveler and one of the funniest people in the sport of submission grappling. While he does make fun of himself a lot, he is legitimately one of the greatest submission grapplers in the world. Underneath the veil of nonstop sexualized Aussie humor and incessant online trolling, he is truly a kindhearted human being who’s trying to do good in the world. Sometimes he does so through a bit of controversy and chaos. Lex Fridman (00:01:22): Like with a new CJI tournament that has over $2 million in prize money. It’s coming up this Friday and Saturday. Yes, the same weekend as the prestigious ADCC tournament. The goal of CGI tournament is to grow the sport. You’ll be able to watch it for free online, live on YouTube and other places. All ticket profits go to charity, mainly to cancer research. I encourage you to support the mission of this tournament by buying tickets and going to see the event in person. Lex Fridman (00:01:58): Craig gave me a special link that gives you a 50% discount on the tickets. Go to lexfreeman.com/cji and it should forward you to the right place. They’re trying to sell the last few tickets now. It’s a good cause. Go buy some. Also let me say, as a fan of the sport, I highly encourage you to watch both CJI and ADCC. To celebrate athletes competing in both. From CJI with Nicky Ryan, Nicky Rod, or Ruotolo Brothers, Ffion Davis, McKenzie Dern, and more. Lex Fridman (00:02:29): To ADCC with Gordon Ryan, Nicholas Meregali, Giancarlo Bodoni, Rafael Lovato, Jr., Mica Galvao, and more. I have a lot of respect for everyone involved. I trained with many of them regularly and consider many of them friends. Including Craig Gordon and of course John Danaher, who I will talk to many, many more times on this podcast. This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it please check out our sponsors in the description. Now, dear friends, I invite you all to come to the pool with Craig Jones and me. Lex Fridman (00:03:04): When you brought the $1 million in cash on Rogan’s podcast, did you have security with you? Craig Jones (00:03:11): We had security, but only by Joe Rogan’s request. He said, “You’re really going to bring it? Do you have security?” I said, “No.” He’s like, “Don’t worry about it. I’ll send my security.” Lex Fridman (00:03:21): You were going to do it without security? Craig Jones (00:03:22): Yeah, we we’re going to wing it. I was told not to tell anyone, but I sent pictures of it to everyone I know. That was probably a security risk. Lex Fridman (00:03:31): Yeah. It’s just you in a car with a bag of cash. Craig Jones (00:03:34): Yeah, it was a company that sponsors me, shuffle.com. It was their friend. A friend of theirs, so a guy that’s never met me before just took the risk to show up to a stranger’s house with a million dollars in cash to bring to Joe Rogan. It was a big risk of him. Lex Fridman (00:03:47): He just put it in the car and drove it. Craig Jones (00:03:49): Drove it over there, yeah. Lex Fridman (00:03:50): Yeah. With no security except Joe. Craig Jones (00:03:52): Except Joe. Lex Fridman (00:03:53): That’s common sense. Craig Jones (00:03:54): Then Joe said he’d never seen a million dollars before, but I don’t know if I believe him. Lex Fridman (00:03:59): That’s what everyone says. That’s what Pablo Escobar probably says also. What’s your relationship with risk, especially with the risk of death? Craig Jones (00:04:07): I would say I’m very risk averse. Lex Fridman (00:04:09): You are? No, you’re not. That’s a lie. Craig Jones (00:04:13): My relationship with risk. I like a bit of excitement. I like a bit of adventure. I’m more about the adventure, but I will not let the risk get in the waiver. Also, obviously just got back from Ukraine. I’m happy to take a few risks if it’s part of what the locals want me to do. In Kazakhstan, we did some things that were dangerous. If the locals are like, come along, join in on this activity, I feel personally obligated to go with them. Lex Fridman (00:04:41): It’s not about the risk. You’re not attracted to risk, you’re attracted to adventure and the risk is a thing you don’t give a damn about. Craig Jones (00:04:49): Yeah. Lex Fridman (00:04:49): If it comes along with it. Craig Jones (00:04:50): Sometimes the best adventures involve the most risk, unfortunately. Lex Fridman (00:04:54): Speaking of which, you went to Ukraine, like you said, twice, recently. Craig Jones (00:04:57): Twice. Really pushed the limit there. Lex Fridman (00:04:59): Including to the front? Craig Jones (00:05:01): To the front. Lex Fridman (00:05:02): Tell me the full story of that from the beginning. How did you end up in Ukraine? Craig Jones (00:05:08): We’re in Kazakhstan. We’re doing some filming in Kazakhstan, and obviously Borats still a very traumatic memory for them, and some of my jokes felt like they don’t go as well in that neck of the woods. We had some difficulty filming out there. We filmed this horse game. Have you ever heard of Kok boru? Lex Fridman (00:05:26): Thanks to you, yes. Craig Jones (00:05:26): It’s a game, a very, very old game. They cut a goat or a sheep. I didn’t get too close to look at it. But they cut its head and legs off and they use it as some form of bull and then they’ll have up to a thousand guys on horses violently trying to pick this up and drop it in the other end’s goals basically. The goals used to be concrete, now it’s just a top. But local business owners will throw down huge amounts of money for the winners. Craig Jones (00:05:53): These horses have been trained from a very young age. The riders have been trained. I’ve never ridden a horse before. We wanted to film something that made it look like I was going to go into the horse pit, into the Kok boru pit. However, the drunk stunt man that we used just decided that when he took my horse reigns, he would take me straight into the pit instead of ending the shot there. I was in there amongst I guess the horse riders, the Kok boru riders, and we weren’t leaving. Craig Jones (00:06:23): We just were in there for quite a while. He could talk English pretty well actually. He’s like, “Oh, I thought you’d want to check it out from the inside.” Then while we’re in there, someone picked up the carcass and a wave of horse riders came at me. I was quite concerned at that point because they’re bashing into each other and obviously they’re angry. They’re seeing a foreigner in there. I was wearing basically Biggie Smalls COOGI looking sweater, so I stood out. Craig Jones (00:06:51): They definitely didn’t like that I was participating in a game that they probably trained their whole life for and that amount of money they could win is very, very significant and there’s me in there. They’re also pointing out Borat, Borat. Thinking I was making Borat jokes, which again, very traumatic memory for the people at Kazakhstan. Lex Fridman (00:07:07): Were you making Borat jokes? Craig Jones (00:07:09): No, but I guess it’s the same type of humor. I’m not pretending to be Kazak. I’m just there being an idiot and enjoying the local culture. But we’re over there in Kazakhstan and we did that. That was obviously a bit risky. Lex Fridman (00:07:23): Did they learn to love you? Craig Jones (00:07:24): I think they learned to love me and then to hate me again. It was a bit of all encompassing relationship for the Kazak people. But we basically abandoned ship. It was proven too difficult to film some things, some sensitive subjects over there. I said, “Where should we go next?” I just looked at the map and I was like, “We’re near Ukraine.” Ukraine was a place that I’d been offered to teach a Jujitsu seminar prior to I guess the full scale war commencing and we’re looking for a bit of adventure, something interesting to film. Craig Jones (00:07:54): Following the news, obviously very controversial in the news, people have very strong opinions. I was like, ” Let’s go over there. Let’s do a charity event. Let’s do something. Let’s train with the people and really experience of ourselves.” We set up the seminar. Turned out to be the biggest seminar for Jujitsu in Ukraine history. Which is wild considering obviously they are at war. But everyone came together to support it. One of the soldiers there, one of my friends there, good friend now, who’s on the front line, he made a comment on there. Craig Jones (00:08:24): He said, “Hey, this is a seminar to donate profits to the soldiers, but we’re on the front line.” I was like, “You know what, I’ll come to you.” He’s like, “Listen, I can’t promise you’ll survive, but I’ll promise you’ll have a good time.” I said, “That’s all I needed to hear.” We connected and my friend Roman, we went really, really close. I think we were at the closest 0.7 kilometers from the front line. Obviously very surreal experience to be over there seeing basically how the battles fought with those drones. Lex Fridman (00:08:57): How long ago was this? Craig Jones (00:08:58): I think it would’ve been March or April. We went there. We went, basically spent two nights up on the front line. Went back to Kjiv and that was it for that trip. In terms of crazy stuff that happened, obviously just the people living. You download the air defense tracker. At any time there could be an air siren going off, an air alert on your phone. Could be like drones heading your way, planes are in the air, missiles flying. Then those missiles will change direction and stuff, so the air alert, you don’t know if it’s heading a different direction, but they just warn everyone. You live under a constant state of fear basically. Then on that first trip, the heaviest moment was, I was going downstairs in the hotel to work out, which is honestly a rare thing these days, doing something healthy with myself. Lex Fridman (00:09:46): You’re working out. Craig Jones (00:09:47): Getting in the gym, pumping some iron. This was divine intervention that a hypersonic missile was shot down by the patriot event system, just like five minutes from the hotel. The whole hotel and the attached gym just shook like crazy. Some people started freaking out. Most people went to leave to go outside, which I don’t think is recommended, but you want to see what’s going on out there. Lex Fridman (00:10:10): This was in Kyiv? Craig Jones (00:10:11): This was in Kyiv. It got shot down and then some of the local troops actually took me to the site of where just part of the missile had landed in the ground and left this huge of indentation. They’d already cleared up most of the, I guess, shrapnel from the missile. I don’t know if I should or if I was legally allowed to do this, but I took some of that missile back home with me. I don’t know where I left it actually. But I thought maybe that would raise some alarm bells and airport scans. But I took it regardless. That was basically the crazy thing that happened on that first trip. Lex Fridman (00:10:44): The Patriot Defense System is incredible. That’s an incredible piece of technology that’s from the United States. It’s expensive but it’s incredible. Then so that’s protecting Kjiv. Craig Jones (00:10:55): That’s protecting Kjiv, yeah. That was at the time where US hadn’t voted to I guess keep funding the weapons over there. It was a tense moment because I think, I don’t know, everyone was thinking when do those air defense missiles run out? That was a heavy moment for me thinking, look at what it shot out the sky. Imagine if they didn’t have that. But that was probably the most surreal moment. But Kjiv largely, life goes on most of the time as per normal. I was faced with crazy messages and comments, even just posting that video. Like I’m getting paid by Ukraine and stuff. It’s just like people just don’t understand that life has to go on like Kjiv here, the front lines far away. The cities have to largely try to operate as normal or just life will not go on in those villages and cities. Lex Fridman (00:11:48): Well, it’s human nature as well. It’s not just Kjiv, it’s Kharkiv, it’s even Donetsk, Khartsyzk. People get accustomed to war quickly. It’s impossible to suffer for prolonged periods of time, so you adjust and you appreciate the things you still have. Craig Jones (00:12:04): Yeah, some bolder moves out there. I love seeing people that just crazy stuff’s going on from the war and they don’t even react to it. They don’t go to the bomb shelter. It’s like a bolder move. I’m not going to change my lifestyle. Actually on that first trip as well, something else that I probably shouldn’t have been allowed to do was go to Chernobyl. Chernobyl, I believe troops came through Belarus and there was some fighting going on in Chernobyl. Craig Jones (00:12:28): I think the whole world got concerned at that point if any sort of radiation leaked. But Chernobyl, as it stands, the troops back down and it’s completely covered in mines. Very, very difficult to go to Chernobyl. Basically as a tourist or as I guess a idiot like myself should really probably not be allowed in a place like that. But we were able to get there. We passed four security checkpoints. It took two attempts. First time we tried to go in there was with the special forces guy, we cleared two security gates. Then they stopped us and basically threatened us with arrest. Rightfully so. Really have no business going to Chernobyl. We made a connection. I won’t say who this connection was, but he had heard about what I had done with a charity event and opened some doors for us to be able to go to Chernobyl. We got to see Chernobyl. We had some filming restrictions there just because it was a crazy military conflict at one point. We got to actually see Chernobyl. Chernobyl always been a dream of mine to see. It’s just such an interesting place and to see it under these conditions, very, very strange. Lex Fridman (00:13:35): Yeah, what was that like? There’s no civilians there now. Craig Jones (00:13:39): It’s just completely empty. I guess it’s like the fantasy you have. I imagine people go on tours of Chernobyl back in the tourist days when it was a tourist spot and it would be busy full of tourists. We got basically a private tour, so we got to really feel that abandoned vibes. I guess I was interested in it from playing Call of Duty and then Chernobyl series, all the documentaries and stuff. But very, very strange place to go visit. Lex Fridman (00:14:04): It is now a minefield like a lot of parts of Ukraine. That’s one of the dark, terrifying aspects of wars. How many mines are left even when the war ends for decades after? Mines everywhere. Because de-mining is extremely difficult and that could continually kill people. Craig Jones (00:14:28): I don’t think it’ll be a tourist spot for a very long time. Because if you were thinking about areas to de-mine when the conflict ends, an area where if you accidentally trigger a mine could cause a radiation leak. It’s probably going to be very low on the list. Tourism for Chernobyl, who knows how long until that returns. Lex Fridman (00:14:44): Why do you think you were able to get to Chernobyl? Why don’t you think the Ukrainian people, the Ukrainian soldiers don’t see you as a threat? Craig Jones (00:14:55): Maybe they were hoping that I did step on a mine. Maybe my jokes didn’t go too well there. Lex Fridman (00:14:59): Your connection was actually Putin, he was trying to get rid of you. Craig Jones (00:15:01): Putin, yeah. I don’t know. We felt pretty safe when we’re there. There was an air alert went off. They were more concerned with me dying just for the PR side of things. It’s like Australian tourist. Lex Fridman (00:15:15): In one of your videos actually heard Ukrainian language. They were talking about, we don’t want to lose an athlete. That’s what they’re saying as they’re loading the rocket launcher. Craig Jones (00:15:28): Oh yeah, the rocket launcher. I showed a rocket launcher with the troops on the first trip. But the second trip I went back to, which was only maybe four to five weeks ago. This time we went to some crazier spots. We went to Odessa, which has been hit a ton. Lex Fridman (00:15:42): I really enjoyed the video of old man stretching and exercising on the Odessa shore. Craig Jones (00:15:48): Yeah, what is it, a local custom? Lex Fridman (00:15:50): Well, Odessa people are known historically to be wild. Craig Jones (00:15:54): That was wild. It was abrasive to the eyes, but I appreciated it. Especially a middle-aged man in underwear with a beer belly doing a Sundance at dusk. That would frighten many people. Lex Fridman (00:16:06): Yeah. The battleship would turn around. Yeah, so where else? Craig Jones (00:16:10): We went Odessa, we briefly went back to Kjiv. I made a connection with the police chief, basically the entire country last time. He had said to me that if I wanted to go somewhere really heavy in terms of action, we could go to Kherson. He’s like, “I’ll personally escort you to Kherson.” I was just like, well, here we have an invitation for adventure. I think it’s a great idea to go. I thought, you know what? I’ll completely lie to my camera man and tell him it’s a safe trip to go on so that he can pass that information onto his fiance and she won’t have any concerns. Craig Jones (00:16:51): We basically take this huge journey all the way down to Kherson. We switch at a city outside, I can’t remember the name, but we had to switch into armored vehicles. I remember the guy that picked this up there said, “Hey, give me a phone number for someone to call to recover your bodies.” He said that in a joking way, but I think he was serious. But I said, “Just leave it.” I don’t think they need it. I didn’t think there’d be much left probably if we get hit over there. Craig Jones (00:17:15): But we go basically into Kherson. I think Kherson’s population used to be like 250,000 now it’s basically all military down to 50,000. We went into the police basically station in the bunker underneath, the top of the building was destroyed. Then one of the local guys just took us on a city tour. Which again, we had some filming restrictions because obviously anytime something’s hit, I guess the other side wants to be able to see what damage has been done. Craig Jones (00:17:44): If you take any footage of recently destroyed buildings, that’s going to help them recalibrate and target the next shot. Kherson being so heavily hit, it’s basically within range of every single thing Russia has. Every form of weapon. Drones. Before we took the tour, he put some drone blocking things on top of the car, which didn’t look reassuring. He also took a helmet out the back of the car, which I thought he was going to give to me, but he just threw it in the back of the pickup truck and said, “Oh, you won’t need this, you’ll be dead anyway.” Craig Jones (00:18:14): I was like, “Oh, I’ve made a great life decision with this little Kherson tour.” But then we took a tour of the city and Kherson used to be a beautiful beach city by the Nepo River, but basically it’s just the river that separates Russia from, I guess the Russian land they’ve taken from Kherson. Kherson split across that river and there’s just Russians on the other side of the river and Ukrainians on this side. Very, very dangerous spot. Craig Jones (00:18:44): Kharkiv makes a lot of press because of the long range missiles that hit, but Kherson’s just being hit all the time. We took this tour, we went along the river. We went to within one kilometer of the front line. That was the closest we got. After this point, we heard artillery strike. Because you’re in an armored vehicle, it sounds further away than it is. Obviously the sound doesn’t get in. I thought it sounded far away. We could see some smoke that actually appeared closer in the distance. Craig Jones (00:19:16): The guy driving us took us to a point where a large building was blocking us from, I guess the angle at which the missile would’ve came from. I thought everything was cool, thought that must’ve been off in the distance. Then we heard two more strikes hit very, very close. They sounded really loud. Then I think he’s radioed in to see if everything’s safe, if we can leave this point. Then we basically raced back. But I started to realize we were in danger at any point where he really sped the car up or took evasive movements in the car. Craig Jones (00:19:48): But we got out of there and I think I had someone translate it later and basically he was checking to see if the roads were clear for us to leave. Ultimately ended up being someone died and a few people injured from that blast, which was less than half a kilometer from us. Basically they were radioing saying, end the tour, come back to the police station. Lex Fridman (00:20:09): Artillery is terrifying. There’s just shelling and it’s the destructive power of artillery is insane. Craig Jones (00:20:17): Yeah, it’s constant all the time. You hear that noise and you’re like, is that coming or going? Very concerning. Lex Fridman (00:20:23): Right. You don’t know. You don’t know. Just like that, it could be you, gone. Craig Jones (00:20:30): Last time, the village we went to, basically it was the day we left. We stayed there overnight. The day we left, it just started getting extremely shelled and the soldier we were with just took a selfie video of us and basically the location we were in just hearing just artillery strike after artillery strike, just being like, oh, you guys left and the fun began. They take it in good spirit. I was trying to use their energy to reassure myself. But I guess when they see it every day, they’re more adjusted to it. They’re not freaking out every time something crazy that goes on. Lex Fridman (00:21:09): Well, they have to. They have to be in good spirit. You have to be joking and laughing. Craig Jones (00:21:15): The guys are always laughing and joking. They were laughing and joking at me quite a bit, holding weapons, trying to shoot weapons and stuff. They got a lot of enjoyment out of me shooting the RPG. Lex Fridman (00:21:24): Yeah, they’re probably still telling stories of that crazy Australian American that rolled in. Craig Jones (00:21:32): They helped me out though in my marketing campaign for the tournament. We were able to secure a Lada, classic Soviet Union car. We towed it, we painted it with the logos of the other event, the ADCC, and we got to shoot some RPGs at it. Great experience. Great fun. Lex Fridman (00:21:49): Yeah, it’s a very creative marketing campaign. Craig Jones (00:21:52): Very dangerous one. Lex Fridman (00:21:53): I don’t think Coke or Pepsi are going to do that one. It’s very innovative. Craig Jones (00:21:57): It was a bold move. Luckily they let me get away with posting it. But when we were there, it was basically at a shooting range and we cleared them out for a while. We’d blown up the car, we’d set it on fire, we’d done all this sort of stuff. I remember we were trying to blow it up. It wasn’t quite hitting, one of the missiles was lodged in under the car, so it was risky. That could have gone off at any moment. But we needed to get it to ignite. We needed to get a shot where it was on fire. The logo of the enemy tournament was basically on fire. We poured gasoline on it. We shot the gasoline tank. That didn’t work. That must be a movie trick or something. Then we decided we had light on fire, a rag and just throw it into the blown out back window. I’m with this guy, special forces guy, and we throw the rag in the back. Lex Fridman (00:22:42): Like soaked in gasoline rag? Craig Jones (00:22:44): Yeah. We start running. He’s like, “Stop, stop.” He’s like, “It didn’t go off.” We’re sitting there quite close to the car, lighting it, trying to light more. As we walk back to the car, then we just hear the car ignite. He’s like, “Run, run, run.” We came quite close to death already at that point. But we wanted to get the shot, some photos in front of the burning logos. But we had told the guys at the shooting range to basically give us 10 minutes or so, so we could take the photos. Craig Jones (00:23:14): I don’t know if they didn’t wait the full 10 minutes or if we took too long, but they started firing at the targets anyway. Then the ricochets were flying very, very close to us over our head. One landed right by my leg. We’re like, “Shit, we better get out of here.” Obviously not much safety concerns at that point, but we survived basically artillery strikes. We survived a bit of friendly fire with the bullets coming our way. But again, I was strangely calm because the other guys were calm. But then afterwards they said to me, they were like, “oh bro, if you got shot, we’d just have to dump your body at a hospital. We wouldn’t be able to explain why you’re here blowing up cars.” Lex Fridman (00:23:49): Right. You’re American and athlete, international celebrity. Craig Jones (00:23:54): They’d be like, what is he doing on the front line? There’s no real good explanation for it. But through even to the jokes and stuff, it’s good to highlight what’s actually happening over there. It’s obviously very, very bad. Lex Fridman (00:24:08): What’s the morale of the soldiers like? Is there still an optimism? Is there still a hope? Craig Jones (00:24:14): There’s the battle fatigue and as they say, all the heroes die early. The guys, the real heroes that are willing to sacrifice themselves, they’re the ones that are going to get taken out quick. Unfortunately that’s the reality from over there. But their thoughts are mostly that it’s going to be a prolonged war. When I ask them about how fast the front line moves, they’re like, “Oh, could take six months to move one 200 meters.” Craig Jones (00:24:39): It just feels like it’s going to go on forever. From the Ukrainian side’s perspective, those guys talk to me about how when they hear radio intercepts of Russian soldiers marching to the same frontline spot, is that basically they’re marching into certain death at certain locations. Based on the radio transmissions, they know they’re going to die, but they head forth anyway. Straightforward into Ukrainian position. Which is just wild to me, I guess World War II, they just keep throwing troops at it. You see a ton of footage they take themselves, which is mind-blowing. Obviously some of this footage doesn’t make it to the internet because it’s got important details in those conflicts. But they’re showing first person perspectives of trench warfare. It’s just crazy to see what some of these guys have gone through. Lex Fridman (00:25:32): I went to a lot of the same places as well, including Kherson. What was your sense of the place? Craig Jones (00:25:41): Kherson was like, it was just so destroyed. I think at this point most of the civilians are gone. I saw a lot of just elderly people left behind, especially a lot of old men. I just think they’re just like, hey, I’ve lived in my whole life, I’m just never leaving. No matter the level of danger, those guys just remain. Then it’s largely just, I guess military in Kherson. But that place felt very, very dangerous. I didn’t realize until we got there, just quite how destroyed it is. Lex Fridman (00:26:12): How did that experience change you? Just seeing war, head on. Craig Jones (00:26:18): How it changed me? I guess just realizing a lot of these soldiers are just, you distance yourself from them thinking that they’re something separate. But really speaking to a lot of the Ukrainian soldiers, my friend Roman, he hadn’t lived in Ukraine for eight years. He lived in France, he had a life, he’s got a wife over there, he’s got a daughter. He basically volunteered to come back to protect his mom and brother who still live there. Craig Jones (00:26:47): I used to view them military guys, because in Australia and I guess in the US, they don’t have this conscription ongoing right now. Whereas obviously there’s guys like Roman who volunteered, but then there’s a lot of Ukrainian soldiers that were conscripted into the war. It’s like you just realize how a lot of these guys are everyday people. They’re just in this crazy situation. Where Roman felt obligated to return to Ukraine. From my perspective, anyone from Australia or US, it’s just a different perspective on those. They feel different to the regular people fighting in Ukraine, from my perspective. Lex Fridman (00:27:26): Yeah, it’s defending the land that is your home. Craig Jones (00:27:30): Yeah, Japan was coming for Australia, I guess in World War II. They attacked the north. But really there was no foot battle and there was no soldiers on the ground within Australia. I guess US too during World War II. It’s like a completely different perspective from our recent histories compared to if you were a Ukrainian and there’s Russians within the defined border. Their responsibility to protect their homeland and their family, it’s just something you can’t imagine. But also after having spent time with them, you can see why they feel such a strong sense of obligation to protect Ukraine, protect their family and friends. Lex Fridman (00:28:09): In a lot of cases, the soldiers using their own funds to buy equipment. Whether it’s bullets, whether it’s guns, whether it’s armor. Is that still what you saw? Craig Jones (00:28:23): Yeah, in terms of the weapons, America provides weapons. We saw a wide selection of weapons. Some of those would be old Soviet weapons, like obviously the RPG we shot and what we shot out of it is all Soviet. It’s very old weaponry. Then you’ve got US weapons that have been given as well. But in terms of the basic soldiers equipment, if they want good quality stuff, that might be the difference between them surviving the winter or the summer just in the extreme temperature range. Craig Jones (00:28:56): They have to pay for that all themselves. They always joke about when foreign soldiers come over to train them. A lot of foreign soldiers come to learn about the drone technology they’ve developed on a budget is they always joke with them about how everything from most countries is basically supplied. All the good quality standard equipment they’d need is just supplied by the government. But in Ukraine, obviously funding is very stretched. Craig Jones (00:29:22): These guys to have the best equipment. They have to basically find money to pay for it themselves. They’ll do that by seeking donations. Best way to get donations would be to grow social media profiles. That’s when you see a lot of social media warfare from a perspective of gaining fame to secure donations for their battalion to be able to fight better or protect themselves. Also, some of the social media warfare, I guess is psychological warfare against the enemy. You’ll see private Telegram groups where they’re showing what they’ve done to the enemy, what the enemy’s done to them. It’s just crazy. Lex Fridman (00:29:58): Yeah, there’s Telegram groups on both sides and basically some of it is propaganda, some of it is psychological warfare. Some of it is just the human nature of being, of increasing your own morale and the morale of the people around you by showing off successfully killing other human beings. Which are made other in war. The nature of this war has evolved. Drones have become more and more prevalent. Consumer level, cheap drones. Can you speak to that? Have you seen the use of FPE drones? Craig Jones (00:30:33): Yeah, so basically like a three to $500 drone. I think it’s like carbon fiber, 3D printed and they can attach different forms of weaponry to it, whether it’s just dropping a frag. They could drop a mine out of it. I know they were talking about how they had a liquid that could basically burn through a lot of cars and tanks so the person inside basically melt alive. Which sounds horrible. But what’s mind-blowing to me is you could have a $3 million Russian tank that could be destroyed by a $300 drone. Craig Jones (00:31:05): Which is just crazy how fast the war changes. I think they’re the world leaders in budget drone technology. They didn’t obviously don’t have the budget for these crazy, elaborate massive drones. I did see some higher budget, bigger drones over there, but for the most part, those FPV drones is really how most of the battles are fought. You’re seeing the cameras on them. You can see basically kamikaze drone will chase someone down and they have that footage. Craig Jones (00:31:35): That’s what the police chief said to me when he gifted me one of the drones they used. He basically said, he’s like, “Artillery is scary, but a drone will follow you into a building.” It’s a haunting thing to think about. They’ll see the drone, they’ll hear the drone, they might try to shoot it down or they might try to run. But if it’s a kamikaze one, those guys are pretty good at flying them. It’s going to chase the soldiers down. A lot of soldiers like pretending to be dead. It’s really crazy, some of the footage out there with those FBV drones. Lex Fridman (00:32:07): It’s a terrifying tool of war and tool of psychological war and used by both sides increasingly. Craig Jones (00:32:14): Yeah, both sides use it. I remember I was with Roman in Morshyn and he had his break period. He was allowed to leave the country because he basically volunteered to join the army. Ukrainian men can’t really leave Ukraine right now. But Roman, I was in Morshyn and this was a surreal experience for him. We went to the beach and there was some tourists there flying a drone, and you just saw his instinctual reaction to that drone sound in the sky, flashback to that. Lex Fridman (00:32:43): Currently, they’re all, as far as I know, all human controlled, so FPV. But to me, increasingly terrifying notion is of them becoming autonomous. It’s the best way to defend against the drone that’s FPV controlled is for AI to be controlling that drone. Just have swarms of drones that are $500 controlled by AI systems. That’s a terrifying possibility that the future of warfare is essentially swarms of drones on both sides. Then maybe swarms of drones, say between US and China over Taiwan. Craig Jones (00:33:18): That would be wild. They do those crazy drone light shows where they do those performances with the lights and stuff. They’re already pretty sophisticated with pre-programming. Lex Fridman (00:33:26): Those are pre-programmed. The low level control, flight control of those is done autonomously. But there’s a interface for doing the choreography that’s hard coded in. But adding increasing levels of intelligence to the drone where you can detect another drone, follow it and defend yourself. In terms of the military on both sides as the Ukraine war, that’s the technology, that’s like the most wanted technology is drone defense. How are you defending as drones on both sides? Anybody that comes up with an autonomous drone technology is going to help whichever side uses that technology to gain a mill- Lex Fridman (00:34:00): … is going to help whichever side uses that technology to gain a military advantage. And so, there’s a huge incentive to build that technology but then, of course, once both sides started using that technology, then there’s swarms of autonomous drones who don’t give a shit about humans, just killing everything in sight on both sides. And that’s terrifying because there’s civilian deaths that are possible that are terrifying, especially when you look 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years from now. Craig Jones (00:34:30): Yes, it’s surreal. When we went to coastline, it was the entire sky is just full of drones. At any given time, they could decide to come and attack. So, they could just sit there forever waiting, waiting for you to come out of that building. They’ll wait a long time when someone goes and hides inside. Or potentially, if it’s an open window, fly straight through the open window to get people. Lex Fridman (00:34:52): Yeah. So, you’re not even safe indoors. Craig Jones (00:34:54): Yeah, there’s nowhere to hide and they can wait for a very, very long time. Lex Fridman (00:34:58): And as far as I know, even politicians, you’re in danger everywhere in Ukraine. So, if you want to do a public speaking thing and doing it outside, you’re in danger because it’s very difficult to detect those drones, it could be anywhere. It’s a terrifying life where you don’t know if you’re safe at any moment anywhere in Ukraine. Craig Jones (00:35:19): Well, sure. It’s crazy with what happened to Trump, I thought maybe the next attack on a public figure might come in the form of drone technology, something along those lines. I wonder how they protect against that here. Lex Fridman (00:35:33): If that happens, just imagine the insanity that would ensue. Because we understand the idea of a gunman with a rifle shooting somebody but, just a drone, just imagine the conspiracy theories. Who controlled that drone? Craig Jones (00:35:48): Where’d it come from? Yeah. Lex Fridman (00:35:49): And now, everybody, that will just cause chaos. Craig Jones (00:35:53): And the range is ever-increasing. One of the battalions in Ukraine, because those FPV drones have short range, pretty short range, but they were able to attach it to one of the larger drones with a signal booster so they could potentially go up to 30, 40 kilometers into the distance. So, the drone that hits you could be flown by someone so far away from you. And if they did that domestically, that would be very frightening to think of the sphere of where it could have come from. Lex Fridman (00:36:22): When you’ve talked to the soldiers there, did they have a hope or a vision how the war will end? Craig Jones (00:36:28): No, really. I guess it just seems to everyone that there’s going to be no middle ground. Lex Fridman (00:36:36): When I was there, there’s a optimism that they would be victorious definitively. And so, is there still that optimism and, also, are they ready for prolonged war? Craig Jones (00:36:52): I think it would be a soldier by soldier basis. I know each of them had a different perspective. I remember I would ask them about, in terms of US politics and their fears, because the first trip I went there, US hadn’t agreed to resupply weapons. So, it was a very different feeling in the air there of concern over what was going to happen but they still remained quite optimistic that, no matter who got in, they felt would do the right thing. But in terms of prolonged war, most people think it’s going to go for a very long time. The children’s hospital that just was bombed in Kyiv, anytime there’s a moment like that, that reignites everything and I think it happens on both sides. Craig Jones (00:37:35): So, I know that there was an attack in Crimea, there was an attack on a beach, I guess, and I don’t know if that attack on the hospital was retribution for that but that’s the energy that is felt. They might have battle fatigue but, when something happens to civilians, especially kids, on your side, reinvigorates the energy to fight for as long as necessary. And in terms of the case by case basis, one of my friends, Dmitri, over there who trains jiu-jitsu in the gym, he was very passionate about it just because of the history. He brought out documents of his grandfather being executed by the USSR. So, I know that when the war started, basically, he took a bicycle helmet and his AK-47 and went out into the streets and he’s like, “I’d rather be dead than live under Russian rule again.” So, very case by case basis, personal history for them, I think. Lex Fridman (00:38:35): Did they comment on US politics whether they hoped for Trump or for, in that situation, Biden now Harris to win the presidential election? Craig Jones (00:38:45): I think most of the guys try to keep it pretty positive. You know what I mean? Some people did think that maybe, if Trump was elected, he wouldn’t continue to fund it but they really try to stay optimistic. Most of the people I spoke to really try to remain optimistic that they would be protected if it comes down to it. But obviously, there was a nine-month period where they weren’t refunded. So, as that stretched … Obviously, they’re refunded now but it takes a lot of time to get that equipment back to the points at which they need it. So, if ammunition had ran out, Patriot defense system had ran out, really, really scary prospect there. I don’t know, I guess no one knows what’s going to happen there. Lex Fridman (00:39:29): Did you lie to people and say you were close to the president so they can be nice to you so they can convince you to continue the funding? Craig Jones (00:39:35): I’m an Australian diplomat. Other than that- Lex Fridman (00:39:38): Diplomat. That could be a nice way in. Craig Jones (00:39:39): Yeah, that would’ve been a nice way to the top. Luckily, for me, most of the places I travel to, jiu-jitsu gives me access to so many different individuals, it’s super bizarre. Oligarchs, royalty, I guess, tech wizards, it’s a strange group of people, a code around the world of just I get strange access just for being good at wrestling dudes. Lex Fridman (00:40:05): Yeah, martial arts, there’s a code and there’s a respect, a mutual respect. Even if you don’t know anything about the other person, if you’ve both have done martial arts, there’s similar things with judo, with jiu-jitsu, with grappling, all of that. I don’t know what that is. Craig Jones (00:40:20): Yeah, it’s like an inner circle. Because this film project we’re working on, it’s focused on that is, because of the history I have in jiu-jitsu and traveling and doing seminars and just getting access to strange experiences from the local, strange in a positive way, and participating in those experiences, that’s what I wanted to focus this travel show on was the community of jiu-jitsu. People around the world really has no ethnic background, religious background, even level of wealth, as cheesy as it sounds, it’s a good equalizer on the mats and that community, camaraderie knows no limits there. Lex Fridman (00:40:58): Including mats, the shadiest mats in some small town in the middle of nowhere? Craig Jones (00:41:04): 100%. Even Sheikh Tahnoun who started ADCC, I know, when he went to the US and he studied there, he would train at a very simple gym, he wouldn’t declare who he was. I watched a documentary produced about the story of Sheikh Tahnoun and how he studied in America, basically, in anonymity. The people that his gym didn’t know who he was in his country and he trained there, he trained with him for years, cleaned the mats like anyone else. And then they didn’t realize who he was until he said, “Hey, I want to invite you to my country,” but he actually meant, basically as royalty, come and then they realized who this guy was and the significance of him. Lex Fridman (00:41:46): That’s gangster, that’s great. One of the things I love about no-Gi jiu-jitsu is you don’t see rank. So, on a small scale, there’s no hierarchy that emerges when you have the different color belts, everybody’s the same. It’s nice. Craig Jones (00:41:59): Yeah, you get to see the skill. Lex Fridman (00:42:01): The skill speaks but there’s just a mutual respect and whatever. You can quickly find out who … I actually wonder if I would be able to figure out the rank of a person. Can you usually figure out how long a person has been doing jiu-jitsu? Craig Jones (00:42:14): I like to think, with some of the aggressive clothing choices I’ve made and sold in the sport, that that should be a beacon, that that person is a blue belt. Has, hopefully, some talent because they’re fearlessly provoking the other party there. Lex Fridman (00:42:28): Oh, it’s like in the jungle, whenever there’s an insect that’s red that is really flamboyant looking, that means they’re dangerous. Craig Jones (00:42:37): It’s a target, yeah, though being flamboyant. If you come on the mats with something pink, pinky or something, people are circling in fast especially in Eastern Europe. Lex Fridman (00:42:47): Okay. So, yeah, you mentioned the project, can you talk about that? I saw there’s a preview that you showed, Craig Jones Gone Walkabout. Craig Jones (00:42:56): Gone Walkabout, yeah. Lex Fridman (00:42:58): So, you showed a preview in Indonesia where you’re both celebrating and maybe poking a bit of fun at Hicks and Gracie. Craig Jones (00:43:07): Hicks and Gracie, yeah. So, I like to match looks from time to time- Lex Fridman (00:43:07): Thank you, thank you. Craig Jones (00:43:12): … in an homage. Lex Fridman (00:43:13): You look sexy. Craig Jones (00:43:14): It’s comfortable, actually, I enjoy it. Lex Fridman (00:43:16): Yeah. You should keep it. Craig Jones (00:43:18): I’ll only we wear this now. I’ll wear this for the Gabi match. Yeah, we’re trying to do a documentary series because the way I see it is I want to grow the sport of jiu-jitsu. And this sounds funny to say now because I’m doing a tournament but everyone tries to do it through competition. But as we know, most jiu-jitsu gyms you visit, a very small percentage of people compete, let alone compete regularly. You’ll go to gyms that could be brown or black belts that don’t know many of the big name competitors. So, my thoughts were we’re never going to grow this sport by competition, we’re going to grow it by appealing to the large majority of people that do it which are just people that enjoy it for the benefits it provides to them whether health or psychological. Craig Jones (00:44:04): And obviously, many people are inspired by Anthony Bourdain, basically it’s looking at what he did with food by showing the very interesting characters in the food culture, the food industries, especially with street food, and building around that. So, I’m trying to look at jiu-jitsu like a giant cult. Scientology isn’t starting with Planet Xenu, it’s starting with John Travolta and Tom Cruise. So, if we can create a documentary travel series highlighting the diverse, interesting people that participate in the sport, in that sense, I hope it can grow but also doing some charity work along the way. We’ll release the Indonesia Bali episode pretty soon but, as an Australian, I do do a lot of damage culturally around the world so I’d like to do some good as well. Craig Jones (00:44:50): We’ve done a lot of damage to Bali, so give back to local communities. We have an Australian there that runs an academy, Akademi Kristus, he’s one of the guys we’re donating a portion of the ticket sales to from our event but he basically went straight into a Balinese slum, started teaching jiu-jitsu on a mat under a tree and then slowly, through donations, has built a gym. And his real focus is not just taking money from people and gifting it to them to help the community but to teach them skills. So, he’ll take a lot of the disadvantaged kids and he’ll teach them things like photo editing so they can get that work from the internet, really. Incredible guy. Lex Fridman (00:45:31): It’s good to know that you see yourself as the John Travolta of jiu-jitsu. Craig Jones (00:45:34): Many masseuses have accused me of the same thing, unfortunately. All lies. Lex Fridman (00:45:39): Yeah, there’s a lot of similarities between the two of you. So, you mentioned Anthony Bourdain. What do you like about the guy? What do you find inspiring and instructive about the way he was able to, as you said, scratch beneath the surface of a place? Craig Jones (00:45:56): I just felt like he was very authentic, wasn’t afraid. This is something I had trouble with when we first started doing the travel show, it’s easy to do a travel show if you only say positive things about a place. But he would find a very creative way to show what’s good and bad, a very honest reflection of the place so that’s something I would strive to do. However, in some places, it’s very difficult. You know what I mean? For example, Kazakhstan, if I were to say something negative about Kazakhstan, they’d be like, “Who’s this foreign idiot talking about our culture?” And I think that was what was incredible about Bourdain is he could talk about both the good and bad of places and he would do it in such a way that it was tasteful and was respected by the locals. Lex Fridman (00:46:38): Yeah, that’s actually a skill that you’re incredibly good at. You make fun of a lot of people but there’s something … Maybe there’s an underlying respect, maybe it’s the accent, maybe … I don’t know what it is. There’s a love underneath your trolling. Craig Jones (00:46:52): I like to think so. Hopefully, yeah. Gabi Garcia, there’s a deep passionate love underneath the trolling. Lex Fridman (00:47:00): Yeah. Speaking of which, let’s talk about CJI. You’re putting on the CJI tournament, it’s in about a week, same weekend as ADCC, $3 million budget, two divisions, two super fights, winner of each division gets $1 million, everyone gets $10,000. How do you even say that? Plus one? Craig Jones (00:47:24): 10,000 plus one, yeah. Lex Fridman (00:47:25): Plus one. Just to compete. So, it’s August 16th and 17th, everybody should get tickets. Same weekend as ADCC’s which is August 17th. Okay. So, what’s the mission of what you’re doing there? Craig Jones (00:47:39): The mission has always been, first and foremost, increased athlete pay. So, ADCC has invested a ton into the sport. Obviously, I mentioned Sheikh Tahnoun, Sheikh Tahnoun has done so much for the sport of grappling, particularly no-Gi grappling. So, he’s growing it, he has funded this for a very, very long time but we’ve hit a point since 2017 where the audience, the crowd watching live and at home behind a paywall has grown considerably. We had things like Metamoris, we had the Eddie Bravo Invitational, Polaris, all these professional events that have also contributed to growing the sport. And obviously, people like Gordon Ryan have definitely increased the popularity of the sport but the payment for ADCC has never gone up despite, again, the growth of it. Craig Jones (00:48:34): So, what I did, a lot of fans were asking me earlier in the year, they said, “Craig, are you going to do ADCC?” and I said, “That is a big commitment of time, energy, expenses on steroids to get my body ready for a tournament that I’ll probably lose.” And if I lose on day one, I make $0. If I lose in the final, which I have done a couple times, I only get $6,000. I think third place is 3,000, fourth place is 1,000. So, if you make day two, you get paid. But for me personally, seeing ADCC in 2022, you’re looking out to a sold out crowd of 10,000 people. It’s on FloGrappling which you know paid quite a bit of money for the streaming rights, I can’t comment on what that number would be, and then you go home, despite having put in all that effort, with only 6,000 and they basically … The argument is you’re paid in exposure. But again, there’s many ways to expose yourself. You know what I mean? That’s just one of the platforms to do so. My problem was that they announced that they were going to go from Thomas & Mack to T-Mobile which is a jump in quality of stadium but not a significant jump in seating. So, we’ve gone from 11,000 seat arena to I think a 15, 16,000 seat arena. And I knew that FloGrappling would’ve had to pay more money because now the sport’s growing so much and I can personally track the growth of the sport through selling instructional DVDs, instructional online products. Because that keeps growing and we’re targeting those white and blue belts vulnerable to internet marketing and that audience continues to grow and those will be the people that largely watch ADCC, events like this. Craig Jones (00:50:19): So, I simply said, in response to a lot of fans asking me, “Are you going to do ADCC?” and I just simply made a video saying, “No, probably not, probably not. It’d be nice to make some more money.” And then I listed a bunch of sports, such as cockbar, that you get paid more to win cockbar. In the villages of Kazakhstan, the payment structures higher. And I received a very aggressive response not from any of Sheikh Tahnoun’s people but from, basically, who runs the event today. One of those guys amongst giving me death threats said, “Hey, T-Mobile costs $2 million, you don’t know what you’re talking about in terms of business and production.” And he’s probably right but, to me, $2 million is a waste of money for a jiu-jitsu event, I don’t think we’re at that level yet. That’s where the UFC hosts events. $2 million, that’s an expensive, expensive venue. Craig Jones (00:51:10): So, we argued a bit on the internet and he said, “Hey, if you don’t like it, why don’t you go get $2 million and put on your own tournament?” And I said, “I might just do that.” And one of my anonymous friends kindly donated a $3 million budget and I actually messaged him before the show to say, “Hey, we won’t reveal your identity,” because, obviously, anyone that has money is going to get asked for more money or ask for money from others. So, he wants to remain anonymous but he basically just said to enjoy the trolling aspect of it and also contribute to the sport of jiu-jitsu. Lex Fridman (00:51:46): Well, that’s good to know that the anonymous funder appreciates you for who you are, Craig Jones. Craig Jones (00:51:52): He sees my true identity and he wants to provoke … It’s trolling for a good cause. But basically we were able to find Thomas & Mack Event Center, which was their original venue, and it just happened to be available that same weekend which we’re very happy about. And so, we booked that out, we decided to … ADCC pays 10,000 to the winner, we were like, “You know what? We’ll pay $10,000 plus one to show up.” So, to show up in our event, you’re going to get paid more than to win ADCC. And not only that, we’re going to broadcast it for free. So, on Meta, X and YouTube, you’ll be able to watch this event for free. Lex Fridman (00:52:31): That’s amazing. Craig Jones (00:52:32): It’s very considerate to the FloGrappling streaming platform, I believe, to have also a free alternative on the same weekend. And the brilliance of this whole thing is I was largely criticized for not knowing anything about business but the people criticizing me decided to host a tournament, a 15,000 seat arena, they decided to take sponsors, they decided to use a streaming platform which sells subscriptions based on the athletes that would enter it but not give any of the talent, the athletes, a contract which gave me this beautiful position to basically say, “Hey, what do you prefer? The prestige of an ADCC gold medal or money?” And that’s the feud so far and we put that out into the world. Craig Jones (00:53:18): I didn’t chase too many athletes down. Obviously, a lot of these guys really need money. So, you throw a million dollars out there, people are jumping on board. So, initially we started getting, we got two local guys here in Austin, the Tackett brothers, they jumped in first and they’re great kids. They really legitimize the whole thing because, if we’d pick certain athletes, just B team guys straight away, it’s already looking a bit dodgy but we’ve got some legitimate athletes. Especially the under 80 kilo divisions, full of, minus two or three guys, that’s the best people in the world in that weight division. And as we started to grow our roster here, what happened, I’m going to say this, allegedly, for legal reasons, is that the first move ADCC did was they matched the female pay to the men’s pay. Craig Jones (00:54:07): So, the women always traditionally got paid less, I think $6,000 for first place. As soon as we had Ffion Davies, the reigning champion, come across to do a super fight with us, bang, ADCC raised the prize money of the women’s division to equal the men’s. So, me, being a feminist activist throughout many of my years on this earth, immediately got women’s pay raised in the sport of jiu-jitsu, equalize basically, which went counter to everything the promoter had said because he said it was out of his control. To raise money, he said only the ADCC, I guess coming directly from the Sheikh or the Sheikh’s guys, could raise the prize money, he got it raised. Craig Jones (00:54:46): And then what happened was, once we started getting some of these big names here, so some of the best guys from ADCC would be in this division. We’ve got a bunch of champions or medalists or, really, the top betting favorites for their divisions there, they started, and again, I can’t emphasize this enough, allegedly, paying show money which has never historically been done before to keep athletes in their show. Lex Fridman (00:55:10): So, you’re saying, allegedly, there were some under the table payments by ADCC? Do you have secret documents proving this? Craig Jones (00:55:18): I do have the documents. Lex Fridman (00:55:18): Okay. Craig Jones (00:55:19): Now, some of the guys obviously told me, you know how it is, you slap million dollars on the table, it looks great. That was me proving I had the money, which wasn’t even my money to begin with, but it was basically me saying, “Hey, the money’s real”. I don’t know why but, strangely, a lot of people don’t believe me when I’m telling the truth. Lex Fridman (00:55:33): I don’t know why they wouldn’t. Craig Jones (00:55:34): But what logically happens is they’re like, “Oh, look how much money he has. Give us more show money,” so they’re negotiating with me. There was one particular Brazilian businessman manager, I won’t say his name, but he looks like the thing from Fantastic Four and he was a manager for some of these athletes and he would take a massive 20% cut. So, what he, and I got to pay respect to this because it actually caused trauma to the other team as well, but I would invite an athlete to CJI, he would go to the other organization and he would say to them, “Hey, what sort of deal could you give me to keep this guy? You want to keep him in your event?” And he would use CJI to leverage more show money for his guys of which he gets to grease the wheels with 20% for himself. Craig Jones (00:56:27): However, at CJI, everyone gets $10,001 across the board and a million dollars prize money so there’s no room for, really, negotiation for the tournament aspect of us. So, he has a vested interest in putting his guys in ADCC because he can negotiate show money and he can basically take 20% of that for himself. But really, for the sport of grappling, this is incredible across the board because, by us stealing or at least borrowing a bunch of athletes from ADCC, ADCC had to fill their divisions. So, they filled their divisions with many other competitors that wouldn’t have ordinarily had the chance to do ADCC. And really, although we’ve scheduled it the same weekend, ours is actually Friday, Saturday, ADCC being Saturday, Sunday, our day starts pretty late. So, we start 5:00 PM Saturday. Craig Jones (00:57:18): So, really, ultimately it was a big marketing ploy to go head-to-head pretending like we’re making the fans choose but the fans will be able to watch both events. You’ll be able to go all day Friday for us. You’ll sadly miss the ADCC Hall of Fame ceremony where you’ll see many of great speakers, public speakers, philosophers tell their stories about hardship just like at the end of any jiu-jitsu seminar or beginning if you’re blessed like that. You might have a 45-minute monologue about how they’re more knowledgeable than doctors, lawyers, classic black belt technique. But you will miss that, unfortunately. Lex Fridman (00:57:53): With great metaphors about lions and- Craig Jones (00:57:55): About lions, yes. About being a humble lion most importantly. Lex Fridman (00:57:59): Humility is important. Craig Jones (00:58:00): But you can watch all that Friday, you could watch most of ADCC Saturday. And then Saturday night, in Las Vegas, I’ll be doing what many men have done before and that is wrestling a giant woman. Lex Fridman (00:58:16): Can you speak to that? How are you preparing for this moment of violence on a Saturday night with Gabi Garcia? Craig Jones (00:58:24): So, Gabi Garcia is the legend of women’s grappling. I think she’s won more than anyone else. So, between me and her, we would at least have 15 to 20 world championships, I’d imagine. She’s huge, I say that in an endearing way. She might be 6″4′, 6″3′ and her weight varies depending on what time of the day it is between 220 and 275 pounds but she’s going to be coming in quite big and strong. Me, I am about 179 pounds right now and at 5″11′. So, I’ve got a significant size disadvantage, she has the credentials but we’re going to scrap it out, scrap it out and see who’s best, the greatest woman’s competitor of all time or a guy that’s never won anything. Lex Fridman (00:59:17): Has it added some complexity to the picture that there’s some sexual tension in the room whenever the two of you are together? Craig Jones (00:59:23): Yeah. Lex Fridman (00:59:24): Or maybe I’m being romantic but it seems like you’ve slowly started to fall in love with each other. Craig Jones (00:59:29): It’s been three years of seduction, it’s been a long time. Lex Fridman (00:59:33): It’s inspiring for many young men that follow you and look up to you. Just the romantic journey that you’ve been on, it’s truly inspiring. Craig Jones (00:59:43): Yeah, I would say it’s a motivational message to the guy that keeps sending DMs to a girl on Instagram for years that maybe, after three years, it could also happen for you too. No matter her height and weight, I think persistence is the key here. Lex Fridman (01:00:01): Yeah. Craig Jones (01:00:03): And we do have a wager on the line. Lex Fridman (01:00:05): What’s the wager? Craig Jones (01:00:06): This might be the first wager of its kind, I would hope, in combat sports history. If she wins, I’ll personally give her a million dollars. If I can footlock her, we’re going to collaborate together in an OnlyFans sex tape. Lex Fridman (01:00:24): Did she agree to this? Craig Jones (01:00:26): She shook on it. Lex Fridman (01:00:29): Great. You do have an OnlyFans channel, is that still up? Craig Jones (01:00:33): After August 17th, it’s going to be fire. Lex Fridman (01:00:36): It’s going to be on fire. Craig Jones (01:00:37): Yeah. Lex Fridman (01:00:37): Wow. Craig Jones (01:00:38): I think that and, honestly, when we talk about secret investor, I think that could fund the entire tournament. It’d be that success. Lex Fridman (01:00:43): That’ll be the only paywalled thing about this tournament is your OnlyFans. Craig Jones (01:00:47): Yeah, it’s going to be a spiritual experience for me. Lex Fridman (01:00:51): Yeah, wow. Okay, I’m fully distracted now. Can you talk about the rule set? Craig Jones (01:00:59): So, we’re using the angled walls inspired by karate combat. Karate combat did those angled walls. Lex Fridman (01:01:07): Those are awesome. You’re calling it the alley. That’s really, really interesting. So, it’s like in a pit, I guess, and the angled walls are- Craig Jones (01:01:14): Yeah. So, karate combat have a square pit, we have a rectangular alley. We like the visual of just you’re in the alley with someone you know. We both know what goes on in an alley, I know a couple of things that could go on back there. Lex Fridman (01:01:27): What’s second thing? Nevermind, I got it. Craig Jones (01:01:30): But why this is brilliant, why the angled walls are brilliant for grappling is because any grappling tournament, this goes without question, this goes for IBJJF, ADCC, the reset is one of the most annoying aspects of the sport and one of the aspects of the sport that some of the sneakier guys take advantage of. There’s guys out there that are brilliant at playing the edge open, the ref will reset them or they’ll shoot a takedown near the edge and you might watch … And, again, I’m picking on ADCC here. But you might watch an ADCC match where 90 seconds of a 10-minute match is the referee grabbing them, bringing them back to the center or trying to recreate something of a position that landed outside. Not only is that boring to me and it could be bias. Again, it’s happened to me in events where the ref’s gone, “Stop,” I’ve stopped, he’s moved a little bit more and then there’s an adjustment in the reset. It’s cheating to a certain extent but it’s just more of an annoyance. They bring it back, they reset it to the best of their ability in the center. Craig Jones (01:02:35): The angled wall mitigates that and it mitigates it in such a way that it’s a disadvantage to be pushed up against the angled wall. You’re very easily taken down against the angled wall. You could use a cage like the UFC does or any MMA organization, however, cage wrestling can be slow. You’re obviously at the vertical and it can stagnate there, guys are very good at using split squats to really defend that position. And for me, personally, I don’t love the cage for grappling, I’d like to differentiate it for grappling. What holds people back from using the alley or a pit-like structure is the viewing, the viewing angle. Because obviously, if you are one of the VIPs or you pay for an expensive seat, that angled wall is above you. A cage, you can see into, an elevated platform stage you can see clearly into because it’s basically flat but the athletes could fall off and injure themselves. Craig Jones (01:03:32): So, if something happens, UFC fire passes the elevated flat stage. It’s scary to be near the edge, you go off, you’re going to land on concrete. You might want to do that to the other guy if you, that way, inclined. But the alley, the angled wall solves all those problems, very minimal referee interference. Again, the only thing that holds people back is the expense of building it. But again, when you’re spending someone else’s money, you will spare no expense in production. So, we’ve spent a lot of money on the alley and we’ve really gone out of our way to create an experience that, around the alley, we’ve elevated everything so that the people watching will be able to see down into it. Because your instinctual thought is, “Oh, it sounds great but how am I going to see in it unless I’m far up?” You’d need a coliseum-like structure which is basically what we’ve attempted to create so that you get both a perfect place to wrestle, to grapple in as well as a perfect viewing angle for the fans. Lex Fridman (01:04:32): Well, I think it’s an amazing idea. What about the jiu-jitsu on a slant? You’ve triangled somebody on a slant. Craig Jones (01:04:41): Yes. Lex Fridman (01:04:41): Is there some interesting aspects about the actual detailed techniques of how to be effective using a slant? Craig Jones (01:04:46): I’ll be honest, I competed for karate combat twice, never once did I ever step foot into the pit. Just, again, like you said before the podcast, if there’s a right way of doing things, I’m probably doing it the opposite. Lex Fridman (01:04:59): The wrong way. I actually no idea why people take advice from you but they do. Craig Jones (01:05:05): I’m mostly an inspirational speaker at this point, I think. Lex Fridman (01:05:07): Yeah. You and Tony Robbins are like this. Craig Jones (01:05:10): Same size at least. But in terms of the training for, obviously, the athletes, it’s very difficult. Some of these guys have gone out there and built their own angled walls. Lex Fridman (01:05:18): Yeah, I saw that. There’s a cool video of that. Craig Jones (01:05:20): They’re getting into that. That’s a smart thing to do. There’s a million dollars on the line, you should probably invest in that. But I also like a new surface that no one’s competed on, no one’s gamed it yet, we’re going to see it unfold. UFC, when people started figuring out how to use the cage, we’re going to see this unfold in front of our very eyes how the strategies work for this. The other thing we’ve done too is we’re doing rounds. So, qualifying rounds would be three five-minute rounds, the final would be five fives. Why I want to do that is to incentivize action. We’re going to incentivize action through penalizing people but we really want … I love a short burst, a break and the guys can go hard again. I don’t like a jiu-jitsu match where the guy takes the back early and he’s like, “Oh, if I keep this position, I’ve won,” and that’s something that people that don’t compete don’t realize. Craig Jones (01:06:15): If you get a good position early, you get up on the points, you just sit there and go, “Oh, let’s ride this to the end.” That’s why I want rounds so that you might take the guy’s back, you’re really incentivize to get that finish. And the way we’re trying to grow the sport is to steal the MMA scoring structure which a lot of people criticize because they think it’s overly complicated, they don’t understand it. But to the mass audience, they understand a 10-point must understand a decision in that sense, they understand it being scored round by round. So, we’re trying to appeal to a broader audience here but we think, based on the structure, based on how hard we’ll call stalling penalties, based on you wanting to finish your opponent quick to have a better chance at a million dollars. Because it’s 10,001 to show up and a million to win, if you aren’t first, you lost, there’s no reward for second place. So, I’m punishing the one position I’ve only ever been able to achieve in tournaments. Lex Fridman (01:07:10): Are you worried that, because of how much money is on the line, people will play careful? Craig Jones (01:07:19): A very generous friend of mine has provided this money. I’m like, “Unless you guys go out there and try to kill each other and put it all on the line, I just won’t do it again. I’m giving you guys a massive platform”. We’ve turned down offers from streaming platforms that wanted to buy the rights to this event because the marketing’s gone very well. We’re turning down money to grow the sport. The ADCC promoter said he wanted to grow the sport so what he did is he put it behind a paywall and he used the money from the paywall to buy more expensive arena. I don’t think that’s how you grow the sport, I think you grow the sport like comedians do these days. Guys like Mark Normand will release a special for free, Andrew Schulz did it first, released a special for free- Craig Jones (01:08:00): Norman will release a special for free. Andrew Schulz did it first, released a special for free and it grew his audience massively. I think that’s what jiu-jitsu needs. We need an exciting show that’s not behind a paywall that’ll grow the sport, grow the audience, and really then, ultimately, we can get to a level where it could be behind a paywall. But I just don’t think we’re there, yeah. Lex Fridman (01:08:23): Yeah, I think million dollars is a lot of money, but the opportunity here, because it’s open and freely accessible by everyone is to put on a show. Craig Jones (01:08:31): And then, you get a million every year. This is a crazy, exciting event. The funding is going to be so easy year after year. And the other aspect we’re doing to it is, unfortunately, I’m not going to make any money off this thing. It’s a nonprofit and the money from charity… Lex Fridman (01:08:47): Except the OnlyFans, but whatever. Craig Jones (01:08:49): Yeah, that’s the real cash cow. But that’s the real work too. Lex Fridman (01:08:52): Yeah. And that’s not for charity, that’s for your personal bank account, the OnlyFans. Are you also… Craig Jones (01:08:58): So, that’ll be for the follow-up therapy. But that’ll be expensive gig for whoever takes that on board. Lex Fridman (01:09:05): Love hurts. Craig Jones (01:09:07): That physically will, yeah. Ticket proceeds to charity. So, obviously, we’ve got the $3 million budget, we’ve got production expenses, we’ve got the team of staff to hire. But if we could sell this thing out, we could potentially donate a ton of money to charity. One of those charities is Tap Cancer Out. Craig Jones (01:09:25): And what’s great about this is Rich Byrne is a black belt from New York, who’s in the banking world. He used to run an event called KASAI Grappling. He went through cancer. He basically had a very aggressive cancer. He had it treated. And now, he basically has said to us that whatever we donate from the profits of the event, he’s going to match dollar for dollar. Craig Jones (01:09:49): And we’ve also had another guy who wants to remain anonymous, agree to match dollar for dollar as well. So, the more ticket sales revenue we can create here, the more we can actually give back to charity. So, it’s really all round. It’s going to be a great event. Lex Fridman (01:10:04): Yeah, Tap Cancer Out is great. And all the charities that the athletes have been selecting are great. What’s been the hardest? You are wearing a suit, so you figured out how to do that, but… Craig Jones (01:10:14): The tie was difficult for sure. Lex Fridman (01:10:15): Tie was difficult, but you figured it out and congratulations on that. But you’ve never run a tournament? No. Craig Jones (01:10:24): I’ve never wrestled a big woman either. Well, I have, but not in this form. Lex Fridman (01:10:30): Not in a competitive environment for OnlyFans. What’s been the hardest aspects of actually bringing this to life? Craig Jones (01:10:38): The first one was people believing it was real. Lex Fridman (01:10:40): Yeah. Craig Jones (01:10:40): That was quite difficult. And then, communicating with the athletes. That’s basically my responsibility is securing these guys, getting these guys to commit to things. It’s very difficult. There’s a reason a few athletes in every sport really stand out and it’s kind of professionalism and kind of the way they market themselves. And I think those two things do go hand in hand. Craig Jones (01:11:04): So, we’re in a sport… Isn’t that funny? Where a lot of these guys do have managers. I think in MMA things would be a lot easier for the promoter because you’re not talking directly to the athlete. You’re talking to a guy who might, who’s obviously taking a cut, but like, peace, there’s a middleman. Craig Jones (01:11:20): So, in a situation where you’re talking directly to the athlete, can be very difficult, can be very annoying, can be very hard to reach these guys. They can be very non-committal. That for me has been one of the biggest challenges. The guys that I speak to that are like, “I’m in.” And then, they’re like, “I’m out. I’m in,” like navigating this area. Craig Jones (01:11:37): One other aspect is because we did this basically from idea to event will be less than three months, three and a half months. So, it’s like we’re having to do so much in such a short period of time. Little things like, of the show and money we’ve given them. They’re expected to basically secure their own flight and hotel to the event with cutting down on staff because that would be one of the… If I had to coordinate, getting these guys flights, I would just jump off a building. It’s hard enough to get them to agree to the event, let alone coordinate, “Hey, what date do you want to come in?” It’s like herding cats. Craig Jones (01:12:13): So, really just the interpersonal stuff’s been difficult. Obviously, going up against ADCC, the legacy event has been pretty difficult as well. Well-established, huge history. They’ve been selling tickets for two years. Everyone’s known it’s been coming for two years. That thing was largely sold out before we even announced the event. So, we’re going head-to-head with this event. So, from a ticket sales perspective, very difficult. Lex Fridman (01:12:38): What’s been Reddit question? What’s been the most surprising people who turned down on your invite? Craig Jones (01:12:44): Oh, I mean, we can name names. I mean, obviously, Conan, he was a semi in, semi out. His suggestion was actually to do a second and third place prize rather than a million. And I’m like, “No, we want all or nothing. It’s all or nothing here.” That’s a better spectacle, better entertainment, probably more injuries, but it’s all or nothing. Mica Galvão, the one that got away. Lex Fridman (01:13:12): Yeah. Craig Jones (01:13:12): That’s sad. But we got the Ruotolos. The Ruotolos props to these kids because Kade’s the reigning champion. These are two of the best guys in the sport. Allegedly, were offered pretty significant show money to stay. But they hit me up and they said, “Hey, promise us one thing. We’re on opposite sides of the brackets and we’ll fight to the death in the final for the million.” And we know… Everyone knows that. Well, we’ve seen them compete against each other multiple times. Craig Jones (01:13:42): So, that was not a surprise because I know they’re good kids. But to basically turn down allegedly show money to do this event, to support the event, to me is incredible. Mica Galvão, things would be more complicated there. Obviously, Mica officially joined ADCC before he secured the Ruotolos. Kade beat him in the final. Mica’s personally motivated to face off against Kade, so he didn’t know Kade was in our event before he agreed to ADCC. Craig Jones (01:14:10): There’s more to that story too, in terms of Mica doing ADCC because a bunch of the kids in his team, I think they’re being flown out to do the ADCC kids event. So, there’s his two teammates, well, at least one of his teammates will be doing the ADCC 66 kilo division. So, his dad, his coach, doesn’t really want to split time between two events. That’s a difficulty for athletes there. But obviously, disappointing. We couldn’t secure Mica. Craig Jones (01:14:37): Mica said he was about the legacy, so he wanted to be the youngest guy ever to double Grand Slam, which is basically win all the Gi events and win the ADCC that same year. My thoughts were, if I was in his position, and I never was obviously a prodigy, a talent like that is I thought he had a position to make a statement in the sport to kind of as cheesy it sounds, be on the right side of history, to have turned down a double Grand Slam, to be in an event that supports athlete pay. Craig Jones (01:15:13): Again, I don’t overly criticize him. But I think in terms of your legacy and reputation, to be at a point and choose to do that is much more memorable than him getting that double Grand Slam, which I’m sure he will win the ADCC 77 kilo division this year, but it’ll be somewhat tarnished anyway. So, I do feel bad for some of the athletes that win this year and potentially people will be like, “Oh, yeah, but there was half the people weren’t in the division.” I feel bad for those guys. Craig Jones (01:15:41): But at the end of the day, most of these guys had an opportunity to be a part of an event that really there’s no downside to. You have a chance to be paid more money than you’ve ever been paid in your life. You are selling tickets that are going to go to charity, and it’s not behind a paywall. So, anyone, anywhere in the world can stream this event, watch it, and there’s no barrier to entry in terms of finances. Lex Fridman (01:16:08): Was there ever any chance that Gordon Ryan would enter? Craig Jones (01:16:15): I don’t think so. I don’t think so. Lex Fridman (01:16:16): Is that something you tried? Craig Jones (01:16:17): Me and Gordon don’t text each other too often. I tag him on Instagram and things, but he doesn’t respond. Lex Fridman (01:16:22): Tell me about your history with Nicholas Meregali. Craig Jones (01:16:25): My history with Nicholas Meregali, actually it dates back to a time where probably he does not even remember back when I used to wear a kimono. So, I went to Abu Dhabi World Pro. I was chasing my gi dreams. I lost in… I can’t even remember. Again, probably the final. You know me, I probably lost in the final against Tommy Langacker in the weight division. This was the last year they did the absolute. I went into the absolute. I made it all the way to the semis. Nicholas Meregali destroyed me in the gi. I did hit a nice little reversal on him though, he passed my guard and I somehow reversed him from side control. That’s the only part of the match I share. After which, he swept me, submitted me. Lex Fridman (01:17:06): You reversed him from side control? Craig Jones (01:17:08): Yeah. Lex Fridman (01:17:09): Okay. So, that could be an instructional. Craig Jones (01:17:12): Yeah, exactly, exactly. Lex Fridman (01:17:14): But right place, right time though. All right. Craig Jones (01:17:15): But then, years later I left the team, Meregali replaced me. So, they’ve brought in a more credentialed, handsome, doesn’t speak as well, but they’ve brought him in. He’s my replacement. He’s coming to the team. We faced off at ADCC. I do a heavier division thinking… I looked at the names and I was like, “That looks like an easier division.” And I had two teammates at that time that were in my 88 and I was like, “Those guys will have to face all first round. I’ll have to face one of them second round the way they do the seating and the structure of the bracket.” Craig Jones (01:17:48): So, I was like, “I’ll do 99, I’ll leave 88 for the boys.” They both lost my division first round, unfortunately. So, I faced off against Meregali beginning of day two. Lot of pressure because Danaher used to corner me, used to be my coach. Now, he’s cornering the Brazilians who used to complain about as the enemy. And I’m like, “What’s going on over here?” It’s like karate kid stuff. I face off against Meregali. I go hard early because I think he can’t defend leg locks. Craig Jones (01:18:18): For the first three minutes, I’m just attacking legs, legs, legs. I ended up sweeping him, getting on top. No points before the points period. But I’m very tired. I’m very tired at this point. Meregali’s big. There’s some guys that get juiced up to hit a certain weight. That’s what I did to enter this division. You can’t keep your gas thing. Meregali’s just a big dude. Who knows if he’s on the juice or not. But he’s just naturally sits around 230 pounds or even 225. Craig Jones (01:18:46): When you’re naturally that big, you gas tanks a bit better. Again, if you balloon yourself up on every substance possible, gas tanks surprisingly not too good. So, we have a bit of a close one. Decision goes my way. Ultimately, finals next. I lose that. But that is sort of our competitive history. We were meant to have a match that had been pre-booked immediately after ADCC. Craig Jones (01:19:08): So, we agreed to this before ADCC. I was like, “The price is right, I’m in.” So, I signed up for it and I’m thinking ADCC that we’re going to face off soon after. Meregali chose instead to have some vacation time. He wanted to go on vacation. He went to relax, bit of relaxation down in Brazil. So, the match is scrapped. Craig Jones (01:19:29): Flo hit me up and they say, “Can you do February?” And this was about the time that Volk fought Islam in Perth. I was like, “No, I can’t do February because I’ll be helping Volkanovski. That’s going to take precedence over this match.” Flo goes, “You know what? We announce it anyway. We’ll sell those tickets anyway. We’ll get the people hyped. And then, we’ll just have you pull out.” And I’m like, “All right, do it.” I’m like, “Do whatever you want. That’s fuck, and probably not a good idea.” But they do that. Craig Jones (01:19:56): And then, people keep trying to rebook this match. But now, I barely even train anymore. I’m busy being a promoter, traveling around. So, now instead of facing in competition again, which I would do if the price was right, they’d have to pay me very well. Two of the shows have offered me the match, but the money, terrible. Lex Fridman (01:20:16): What do you think is a number that would convince you? Craig Jones (01:20:21): It would have to be, I would think half a million dollars. Otherwise, I just can’t be bothered. Lex Fridman (01:20:26): Yeah. Craig Jones (01:20:26): You know what I mean? It have to be worth it because to put a price on a guy that takes himself as serious as Meregali. Meregali is a very serious man. He’s talking about authenticity. He’s talking about words he doesn’t even understand. For me, to give him the opportunity to live in a world where he had won the last match against me, it’s hard to put a price on that. When people say it’s not about the money, it’s not about the money. It’s about me waking up every day knowing that he knows he lost to me. Lex Fridman (01:20:54): So, you think you’ve gotten it in his head? Craig Jones (01:20:56): Yes. Lex Fridman (01:20:57): How do you think he would do if you were to face him for the said $500,000? Craig Jones (01:21:02): For the $500? Lex Fridman (01:21:03): Yeah. Craig Jones (01:21:04): I think over five minutes I beat anyone in the world. But… Lex Fridman (01:21:08): You still think you got it? Craig Jones (01:21:09): I still think I got it. Gabi about to find out too. Lex Fridman (01:21:15): All right. So, you’re going to make a statement with Gabi that it’ll be a match she remembers. Craig Jones (01:21:22): Yeah, yeah, she for sure. I think the fans will remember it as well. I’m open to it. If we do this match, I’m taking it very serious. But we’d be open to rematches. I’ve always said, I would have an MMA fight with her. I wouldn’t be afraid to hit a big woman. Lex Fridman (01:21:40): So, unlike with Meregali, if you win, you’re not going to ride out off to the sunset with Gabi. Craig Jones (01:21:45): I’m a bit of a romantic. I think she deserves a few finishes, not one, and hit the bed that night. Lex Fridman (01:21:51): So, you think you can actually beat Nicholas Meregali? Craig Jones (01:21:54): I think so, yeah. I mean, you could throw a riddle at him before the match. That had fucking complicate things for him for the next hour. Lex Fridman (01:22:00): Will you and Gordon ever get along again? Craig Jones (01:22:04): I think so. I think we need… The origins of MDMA was couples therapy in the ’70s in Houston, I believe. I believe something like that for us could resolve these underlying issues. Lex Fridman (01:22:14): You’re a man of Reddit because they suggested that you should consider ketamine therapy sessions. Craig Jones (01:22:18): Just imagine a therapist sitting down with him. They’ll be like, “Clear the schedule for the next couple of weeks.” Lex Fridman (01:22:25): With all due respect, Craig, I can’t imagine a therapist sitting down with you. That would be a terrifying. Craig Jones (01:22:30): I do have a therapist. Actually, they prescribed me Vyvanse. He’s quite confident in my… Lex Fridman (01:22:35): This is… You met him in Bali or where did you? Craig Jones (01:22:39): It’s a Russian website. Lex Fridman (01:22:41): It’s the old Sean Connery thing. It’s not a therapist. It’s just something that’s spelled the same. Craig Jones (01:22:47): I think me and Gordon, a debate of some type would be awesome. Lex Fridman (01:22:51): Like a political debate? Craig Jones (01:22:52): Yeah, me representing Kamala Harris, and him representing Donald Trump. That would be… Lex Fridman (01:22:57): So, intellectual sparring. Craig Jones (01:22:59): An intellectual battle, a battle of wits. Lex Fridman (01:23:02): Can you just speak to your trolling? Is there underneath it all? Is there just a respect the human beings you go after? Craig Jones (01:23:12): For sure. They have to be worthy of being attacked. You know what I mean? Lex Fridman (01:23:15): Yeah. Craig Jones (01:23:15): Like if someone attack… That’s the thing, it’s like you want a worthy adversary, not in a sense of, I don’t want to battle someone that has better banter than me because I’m going to lose. But I want to battle someone with a profile large enough that it doesn’t look like you’re just… Lex Fridman (01:23:32): Who do you think is the biggest troll or shit talker in martial arts? Craig Jones (01:23:36): Renato Laranja. Lex Fridman (01:23:38): Yeah. Well, you can’t even put him in the… He’s in the other class of human being. Craig Jones (01:23:44): He’s overqualified. Lex Fridman (01:23:46): Chael Sonnen comes to mind. Craig Jones (01:23:48): Chael is good. Lex Fridman (01:23:48): You versus Chael, who’s a better shit talker? If you look the entirety of the career. Craig Jones (01:23:53): Chael is better. I mean, I don’t think if you can shit talk in MMA, because there’s far worse consequences for you. If you’re still willing to do it when really violent things can happen to you. I mean, I’m getting death threats, but he has a certainty of violence against his opponents at MMA. Lex Fridman (01:24:12): So, on Reddit, somebody said you are a coral belt level troll and just happened to be good at jiu-jitsu. So, what did it take for you to rise to the ranks of trolling from white belt to black belt to coral belt? And what’s your journey with talking shit? Craig Jones (01:24:29): That’s a good question. Hey, I think it would’ve happened after I moved to America because in Australia, we just on a daily basis say some of the worst things you could ever imagine. Lex Fridman (01:24:39): Like in private life? Craig Jones (01:24:40): Yeah, we just trying to ruin each other’s day. In a way, that’s so blase, you’re going back and forth. And the guy that actually gets upset and says some real shit, that’s your victory. You know what I mean? Lex Fridman (01:24:40): Yeah. Craig Jones (01:24:54): You’re like, “Oh, we got you, you actually… That actually, bothers you. All right, we’ll take that as a victory.” Lex Fridman (01:24:58): All right. So, when you come to America and everybody takes themselves a little too seriously, those are just a bunch of victims that you can take advantage of. Craig Jones (01:25:06): An Australian entering American banter is like, neo getting these matrix skills. You’re just like, “Whoa, I see everything coming.” Lex Fridman (01:25:14): Do you ever look in the mirror and regret how hard you went in the paint at somebody? Craig Jones (01:25:22): I don’t think so. I don’t think so. Lex Fridman (01:25:22): So, you’re proud of yourself? Craig Jones (01:25:25): I think what I offer is some balance. It’s like I’m bringing some justice. Ultimately, it’ll probably come back in spades to me. Lex Fridman (01:25:35): Yeah. I don’t know, as a fan of yours, as a fan of Gordon’s also. But as a fan of yours, I see the love behind it. I don’t know. It seems always just fun. The shit talking seems fun. Craig Jones (01:25:46): I wish you’d buy it back. It doesn’t buy back anymore though. Lex Fridman (01:25:49): What’s your relationship like with Mo the organizer of ADCC? Craig Jones (01:25:55): I mean, it’s been a love-hate relationship. I guess that… Lex Fridman (01:25:57): Like with Gabi? Craig Jones (01:25:59): Like any good relationship, if you don’t get blocked to the end of it, will you really in love to begin with? Lex Fridman (01:26:04): Right. Craig Jones (01:26:05): That’s my thoughts anyway. But so, in terms of my friendship with Bob, me and Mo were really close friends for a long time. We’d talk a lot. He was instrumental in us moving Danaher desk squad to Puerto Rico. He lives in Puerto Rico, spends most of his time in Puerto Rico. I’ve spent time with him in Florida, California. But in terms of our relationship, I’m trying to think of an exact time where it went south, but I guess in my… Him being the ADCC organizer, in my attack of athlete compensation was taken personally, which is obviously going to ruin whatever friendship you had. Lex Fridman (01:26:52): And that started around the time you were thinking about CJI. Craig Jones (01:26:56): I mean, to be honest, CJI was a result of the response of my discussion of athlete compensation. So, me and Mo had been close friends even after the Danaher team broke up. We were still close friends for quite a while after that. But it does complicate things when someone is, for all intents and purposes, he as an ADCC competitor and he runs ADCC, the event, he’s in control of it now, he is your boss. So, that does complicate our friendship. Lex Fridman (01:27:30): Have you had a conversation since you announced CJI? Craig Jones (01:27:33): Have we had a conversation… Lex Fridman (01:27:37): When did you get blocked? Craig Jones (01:27:38): I honestly didn’t get blocked. I was just joking. Nah, honestly, we had a disagreement about athlete compensation. I said, “Let’s do a podcast and talk about it because I’m a big fan of transparency. If you think I’m an idiot for thinking athletes should get paid more, tell me in. Show it to me.” And I’ve made public statements. Craig Jones (01:28:02): Other people have asked why we don’t get paid more money. You can both tell me and the world at the same time, the grappling world at the same time, but was not interested in doing a podcast. Again, maybe he thought I was going to hit him with some gotcha questions or something. But really, at the end of the day, I personally believe you’ve got nothing to hide. If you are confident in the business decisions you’ve made, then there’s no got you moment that I could actually do. Craig Jones (01:28:29): I could easily… I would have done the podcast if I look like a complete idiot would’ve released it anyway because it’d be a good message to where we are in the sport. But again, considering what I know about Thomas & Mack’s price, which I believe we’re paying $200,000 for, and T-Mobile’s $2 million. How do you justify no increase in athlete pay? Well, we have a $1.8 million increase in venue cost. Lex Fridman (01:28:52): So, you’re saying that there could potentially be poor business decisions, poor allocation of money that could be reallocated better to support the athletes? Craig Jones (01:29:00): Yeah, I’ve never once thought this was some organization when most like stealing money from self. I’m just saying that… And again, the road to hell is paved with good intention. So, he might fully think that what he is doing is going to grow the sport. I’m going about it in a completely different way. I don’t think we need T-Mobile. I don’t think we need it behind a paywall. I think we need cheap venue, still maintain good quality production. Release it for free. If you want something to grow, present it for free. Lex Fridman (01:29:35): Is there a future where the two of you talk? Craig Jones (01:29:36): Yeah, for sure. He keeps insisting on talking face-to-face. I don’t have a problem with that, but my argument is, this is a public feud. The public… This is… We’re having a disagreement. Let’s settle the disagreement in a way that answers the question to the fans. Because if one of us is a complete idiot that I believe the world of people following this story are entitled to know which one of us is an idiot. Lex Fridman (01:30:06): If you talk to him, would you be good faith? Would you turn off or turn the troll down from 11 to a three? Craig Jones (01:30:14): I don’t even think I need a troll. It might just say, “Hey, show us the books.” You know what I mean? Honestly, when our event’s done, we’re going to be pretty transparent. Obviously, we are run as a nonprofit. We’re going to be pretty transparent about everything. And I mean, obviously, ultimately, all the views we get. Craig Jones (01:30:34): When FloGrappling, when an event on FloGrappling or Fight Pass or any other streaming provider, unless it’s a pay-per-view, you’re not going to know how many people watched. So, that’s one aspect of what we’re doing is we’re going to have a visual guide to how many people off hands of grappling. Lex Fridman (01:30:53): Yeah, transparency in all of its forms. That’s what bothers me about the IOC with the Olympics is that there’s this organization that puts on an incredible event, but it’s completely opaque, it’s not transparent and the athletes don’t get paid almost at all. So, it’s usually from sponsorships and they sell distribution, broadcast distribution. And so, it’s mostly pay walled after the fact. It’s very… Unless you’re a super famous athlete or a famous event, it’s hard to watch. I don’t know the early rounds of the weightlifting or the judo or all of the competitions where most of those athletes get paid almost nothing and they’ve dedicated their whole life like, they’ve sacrificed everything to be there and we don’t get to watch them openly. Lex Fridman (01:31:42): And in many cases, you can’t even pay for it. With IOC, I’ve got to experience this because I’ll have podcast conversations with judoka for example, and I put a little clip in a podcast and the Olympics channel takes it down immediately. So, they have all the videos uploaded private, they’re private. Craig Jones (01:32:03): Oh, to flag the copyright. Lex Fridman (01:32:05): They just flag the copyright automatically. From the private videos, they could release, they could release somewhere, even if it’s paywall, which I’m against. But paywall, but make it super easily accessible. So, the FloGrappling model is still okay. I’m against it. But if you do a really good job of it, okay, I can understand a membership fee, but it should be super easy to use. Lex Fridman (01:32:25): But in the case of the Olympics, first of all, in the case of the Olympics, the whole point of the Olympics is for it to be accessible to everybody. So, paywalling goes against the spirit of the Olympic Games. And I will say the same is probably true for many sports I grappling, especially from major events like ADCC that I feel like they should be openly accessible to everybody on every platform. But what was the decision like for you to make it accessible on YouTube and X and… Craig Jones (01:32:53): Well, I mean, just because basically it’s going to grow the sport. You know what I mean? If you have to subscribe to a platform to watch something, you have a mild interest in, a mild curiosity in, there’s a financial barrier there. So, I want to open it up because again, we have an investor who’s contributing and is happy for it to be spent this way, happy for us not to be held hostage by these streaming providers. Craig Jones (01:33:25): And really like, again, I’m not making accusations against FloGrappling or UFC Fight Pass. They are making the right business decision by not providing streamer numbers because that’s leverage that those people can use against the streaming provider. But for me as an individual athlete that really wants to understand the metrics of how many people actually watch this sport to leverage that in my own sponsorship negotiations, then if I’m in a position to have this out free and also give every athlete involved the same metrics and information, you’ll literally be able to see the spikes when you compete and you’ll be able to take that and present it for opportunities for sponsorships, for businesses to say, “Look, how many views this got.” I was one of the most viewed moments of this event, so I want to put the power back in the athlete and take it away from the host. Lex Fridman (01:34:21): And it creates a lot of incentive for the athlete to make it exciting. Craig Jones (01:34:25): Yeah, this is your time. It might never happen again. I fully intend to run this every year. That’s the goal. But again, it might never happen again. Lex Fridman (01:34:34): Is there a possible future where the 2026 ADCC is run by Craig Jones? Craig Jones (01:34:39): Could I take over ADCC? I think from an ADCC perspective, it would make a lot of sense. I think it would make a lot of sense to wait, to see if this event turns into fire festival first before you commit to something like that. But I think a more modern approach to the promotion of the event, again, I keep going back to the comedians. You know what I mean? If you want to grow your brand, whatever that may be, provide content for free and you can paywall. Craig Jones (01:35:11): Eventually, you can grow the audience, create the audience free. I think, again, if your goal is to create a huge sport here, then it’s like if we’re already a niche sport and competition aspect of that, is it even smaller niche? Then, we need to grow that providing this content for free. Lex Fridman (01:35:31): Well, having just chatted with Elon Musk who fundamentally believes that the most entertaining outcome is the most likely, that to me, if the universe has a sense of humor, you would certainly, Craig Jones would certainly be running ADCC, which would be, I mean, it would just be beautifully hilarious. Craig Jones (01:35:51): It would be a poetic ending. It would be an underdog story, from a man that could never win the event to running the event on behalf of the Sheik Tahnoon. Lex Fridman (01:36:03): So, I saw B-Team videos of the CJI camp, people training super hard. So, you aside who don’t seem to do things in a standard way, what does it take to sort of put yourself in a peak shape, peak performance for a huge event like the CJI or the ADCC? Craig Jones (01:36:25): I mean, psychologically, it’s really, really brutal. For me, anytime I’m leading up to any event of any meaningful significance, it’s horrible on a psychological level because you’re always thinking about, “Are you training enough? Are you doing enough?” If you feel any signs of sickness, injury, the stress levels increase, your sleep quality decreases, it’s all those little subtle things that’s so hard to mitigate. Craig Jones (01:36:51): So, whether you feel like you’re training hard enough, you’re over training. Those to me are the most difficult aspects. And I think really, those are an individual thing and that’s really something where a coach can provide what he thinks to you is the right amount of work. And I think that’s different for different people. I think Nicky Rod could do eight hours a day, you know what I mean? I think Nick Ryan, 8 minutes. Lex Fridman (01:37:15): I saw a video of Nick Ryan with a trashcan throwing up. Craig Jones (01:37:19): Yes. He’s being good. Lex Fridman (01:37:20): And the top comment is like, “That’s him doing the warmup.” Craig Jones (01:37:25): That is satisfying to watch, honestly. Lex Fridman (01:37:28): Yeah. But yeah, so you’re supposed to train hard enough to where you have this confidence that you’re prepared. Craig Jones (01:37:35): Yeah, I mean, and it’s an impossible thing to grasp. It’s like some of the best performances I’ve had, I’ve been called up last minute or I’ve been sick or my camp’s been horrible. And for me, personally, I’ve gone in there and thought, “Oh, relax.” Almost like, oh, well, you got caught up a week ago, you’re injured, you missed four weeks of your camp. And I went in there super relaxed and accepting of the result and performed much better. Craig Jones (01:38:04): Sometimes, when I know three months out, I’ve got an event coming up and that event only happens every two years. It just the stress of that alone, I personally on an individual level, more of a, I’d rather wing it. I’d rather be in the stands and just roll down. Like Gunnar Nelson, I remember he had a brilliant performance in an ADCC absolute. And he was out drinking the night before. He had no idea he was competing the next day. He was in the stands eating ice cream and they called his name out for the absolute, and he went out there and I believe he got bronze. I believe he beat Jeff Monson. Craig Jones (01:38:36): So, it’s like, it’s different for different people. Obviously, you don’t want that to be the standard. You’ve got to be putting in the work at all times. But even now in my crazy travel schedule where I don’t train anywhere near like I used to. As long as your game is technical, and as long as your body’s in good condition, I believe you can still train well against world-class guys. You might not be able to do an hour straight, but if you’re technique-orientated, you’re just losing fitness. Lex Fridman (01:39:08): So, is it possible to out cardio Craig Jones? Is your game fundamentally a technique-based game? Craig Jones (01:39:15): For Sure, for sure, yeah. I’ve never wanted to win anything bad enough to train properly for it. Lex Fridman (01:39:19): Right. But isn’t that the secret to your success being lazy? Craig Jones (01:39:23): I think so. I think that’s the only logical explanation. And I also use it as mind games too. Again, no one knows whether what I’m saying is true or not. Lex Fridman (01:39:34): Right. Craig Jones (01:39:34): And I’m not saying this story to say anything bad about my opponent at that time, but I booked two matches and two consecutive weekends. And I’ve been traveling, I think I just got back from one of my trips. I’ve been over international, so I don’t even know where the fuck I was. But… Lex Fridman (01:39:52): Yeah, you’re in Texas right now, by the way. Just in case you forgot. Craig Jones (01:39:55): Texas, just for you. I just came back for you. Lex Fridman (01:39:57): Thank you, man, it’s an honor. Craig Jones (01:39:58): But I hadn’t really even trained. I couldn’t train. I was traveling, just had no ability to train. I trained for a week. I had the Phil Rowe match. And I said to myself, I was down in Mexico City and I said, “You know what? If you win this match, you got to face Lovato next week. Don’t go out and party, don’t celebrate the victory. But as a 32-year-old man at that time, hitting a flying triangle submission, I thought that deemed a worthy afterparty. Lex Fridman (01:40:29): Yeah. Craig Jones (01:40:29): And we got out of control that night. And it wasn’t until the next day I woke up, I was like, “Oh, I have Lavato next weekend.” But people don’t know whether I’m telling the truth or not. But it’s also, I’m almost too honest because I’ll be doing an interview saying, “Yeah, I was out party and I barely trained.” The opponent looks into that and they question it, “Is he telling the truth? Is he baiting me? Is he really that unconcerned?” You know what I mean? It’s almost a psychological battle in and of itself, but for the most part it’s true. Lex Fridman (01:40:56): So, to you, being psychologically relaxed is extremely important, just not giving in them, I wonder what that is. Craig Jones (01:41:02): Not too much pressure. I don’t want… Lex Fridman (01:41:03): Pressure. Craig Jones (01:41:04): I don’t like the pressure. Lex Fridman (01:41:05): But you like the pressure when it comes to internet shit talking. Craig Jones (01:41:10): Well, I mean, you get a silently sit back and think about a good response. Lex Fridman (01:41:14): Yeah. How important is it to just go crazy hard rounds leading up to competitions like that? You said sort of Nicky Rod, but on average for athletes at world-class level, do you have to put in the hard rounds? Craig Jones (01:41:30): Yeah, I think you have to put in the hard rounds. It depends at what point in your career you are. I think someone like Nick Ryan might almost train too technically too often. And when he comes to competition, it’s a confronting experience when someone hits him hard and he fills that pressure. So, I think different people require different things. When Nicky Rod is breaking the spine of a 37-year-old father, a three-bus driver, it might be time for him to train in a more technical manner. So, it’s like you’ve got to cater it to what they need. And again, depending on the opponent, it’s a game of- Craig Jones (01:42:00): To cater it to what they need. And again, depending on the opponent, it’s a game of strategy. For me, when I was more active, I look at an opponent that I want, that I could steal some clout from, off of which the clout, you can make money. And I think to myself, “What’s the best rule set I can beat them in?” Craig Jones (01:42:17): That’s the strategy. And then how would I beat them in that rule set? So there’s so many strategic layers to go above and beyond just the training for me. But nowadays I like to, if I train short duration, high intensity, that’s the best for me. I don’t like this six little, like 10, six minute rounds, whatever. I don’t like this long training. For me, it’s too much toll on the body. I think I go to the gym, maybe the first round’s slightly light, and then just bang it out. Two hard rounds tops, a little bit of problem solving. Get out of there. Because you want to feel a little bit of the competition intensity. That feels the best on my body. Lex Fridman (01:43:02): When you’re traveling, you’re doing seminars and you’re just doing Jiu-Jitsu with folks, are you training with them? I’m sure, from everything I see, people would love to train with you. Craig Jones (01:43:13): Yeah, they want to. I mean, I don’t know what it is. Obviously, I guess it’s like people want to play basketball with a basketball star or something, you know what I mean? But I guess you play one-on-one with a basketball player, there’s no great risk of injury. That’s the real problem is if you don’t roll at your seminar, the seminar participants don’t feel like they’ve got the full experience. But, there’s snipers at these seminars. There’s these sharks that are circling wanting to attack you, and you have to look it… You look at it from both perspectives. I think you should provide excellent technique. Excellent question and answer time. And I think you should roll a little bit. For the most part, these days I’ll just roll 30 minutes straight. I’ll just do 10 guys, three minutes, no break. 30 minutes straight. I might even get the guy to pick, again if you… Some of these guys come in hot. Lex Fridman (01:44:11): Yeah, it’s terrifying, man. Because the thing is with Anthony Bourdain sort of analogy here, you’re exploring all parts of the world. You just want to be there in the culture, teach good techniques and just socialize. You don’t want to… There’s just a bunch of killers that are trying to murder you. Craig Jones (01:44:31): Yeah. To them they’re like, “I get to test myself against a world-class athlete today.” And to you, you’re like, “Oh, I’m in Odessa. I’d like to get to know the people.” Lex Fridman (01:44:42): Yeah, exactly. Craig Jones (01:44:43): “Try some food, have a couple drinks and enjoy the place.” But to them it’s time to go. You got to rope it open a bit. If I meet pressure with pressure, I get tired. But if I don’t provide resistance where they think there should be resistance now it slows their pace down. They get shocked a bit. But 100%. If I’m at a seminar and someone’s rolling too hard with me, if I feel like I might get hurt, I’ll 100% rip a submission on them. You know what I mean? Craig Jones (01:45:15): It’s like, you’re confronted with a threat. You have to meet it with a threat. It’s like, I’ve spoken about this with Ryan Hall. Ryan Hall will give them a warning and then gone. And I think it’s perfectly acceptable. I won’t endanger them for no reason, but if you are coming hot, you better tap fast. If I feel a threat, you better tap. I’m not going to break it for the sake of breaking it. But if you do some crazy shit that might potentially hurt me and I get a submission and I’m tired. If you are fresh, you can catch a heel hook, hold it tight. The guy tries to wiggle out. You got it. Craig Jones (01:45:53): If you’re tired and you’ve been nice with a heel hook and then they slip out and club you in the head, then next time is going to be the last time. Lex Fridman (01:46:04): Well last time, see you’re another level, you and Ryan Hall are just world-class. But for me, I’m trying to find, navigate through this. ‘Cause I’d like to be able to roll 10 rounds for fun, for cultural. Craig Jones (01:46:16): Oh, but they’re coming for you too. Lex Fridman (01:46:19): And unfortunately ripping submissions or knee on belly, some kind of dominant position, people don’t hear the message at all. Or if I let them submit me a bunch of times, they don’t calm down either. So I’ve been trying to figure out how to solve that puzzle. Because I’d like to keep rolling with people across the world for many more years to come. But it’s tough. Craig Jones (01:46:43): You can’t do it. If you’ve reached any level of notoriety, whether it’s in the sport or just as a celebrity, you’re better off to just have three, four trusted training partners and train privately. That’s the sad situation. People used to say, “Oh, you could be such and such and go to any gym.” No. Those days are over now. Now, if you show up and you have any sort of name, they’re coming to kill. Honestly, you’re better off. It’s so much safer. Training is about trusting. Trust is built from safe rounds. Lex Fridman (01:47:18): Yeah. Craig Jones (01:47:19): Strangers are scary. Lex Fridman (01:47:22): I don’t know. I’m trying to develop a radar when I look at a person, trying to figure out. Are they… Craig Jones (01:47:27): Are they from Eastern Europe? I’ll tell you what the most [inaudible 01:47:31]. That’s a good one. You know what? Anyone that wears a Pitbull sports rash guard or anyone from the country of Poland, be ready. Lex Fridman (01:47:40): Oh, Polish people go hard. Craig Jones (01:47:41): People go hard. I’ve never had a flow roll with a Polish person. Lex Fridman (01:47:45): Somebody on Reddit asked, “How many legs did you break in Eastern Europe?” Craig Jones (01:47:49): Three or four. Lex Fridman (01:47:51): To send a message or just for your own personal enjoyment? Craig Jones (01:47:54): I don’t enjoy it. Lex Fridman (01:47:57): You don’t enjoy the violence. Craig Jones (01:47:58): It is humorous after the fact though. I mean it’s just like, “Hey bro, I’m jet lagged, I’m tired. I’m here for you guys. Why are you trying to hurt me?” If I get a submission tap, don’t hesitate at all. Don’t hesitate. I mean, Jiu-Jitsu’s dangerous. It’s a dangerous thing. And when strangers are going crazy, they think they’re getting invites to CJI if they tap me. It’s just wild. Lex Fridman (01:48:27): So speaking of which, just for the hobbyist, for a person just starting out, what wisdom can you provide? Say, you were tasked with coaching a beginner, a hobbyist beginner. How would you help them become good in a year? What would be the training regimen? What would be their approach? Mental, physical in terms of practice in Jiu-Jitsu. Craig Jones (01:48:53): I mean honestly picking safe training partners and trying to understand the positions and not just freaking out. You might escape if you freak out, but you also might be stuck in something and you injure yourself. So I think if you can… It’s just about longevity. If you can find a pace to train at and a sort of intensity and the right people you could potentially train five years without injury. It’s really about how you move. If you are always moving in an explosive way, eventually you’re going to do that from a position in which you can’t move and then something’s going to tear. And you also want to be able to trust training partners to not go too crazy and inflict too much pain. You know what I mean? It’s like, yeah, I think I’ve managed to avoid a lot of injuries. I just never roll too athletically, explosively. I think I’m probably incapable of moving at that rate of speed. Lex Fridman (01:49:55): So that’s part of it is you the way you move. But I guess you also don’t allow anybody to put you in a really bad position in terms of hurting you. Craig Jones (01:50:03): I let them put me in bad position, but I try to stay relaxed at all times. That’s the key here is, I mean, yeah, obviously you’ve got the cheesy, keep it playful. But it’s like if you can remain calm in bad positions, that is a skill. That’s your confidence not in yourself, but that the other guy’s incapable of submitting you. That’s the ultimate confidence. You can give him whatever you want. Lex Fridman (01:50:27): So the thing you want as a beginner is to focus on minimizing injury by relaxing, by not freaking out. Craig Jones (01:50:34): Yes. Keeping it at a pace so you can understand what just happened. Lex Fridman (01:50:37): The thing is how do you know if you’re freaking out or not? As a beginner. It feels like a… Craig Jones (01:50:42): Yeah if you’re panicking. Lex Fridman (01:50:43): Yeah, that’s a good… I mean I see a lot of beginners breathing, starting to breathe hard, they tense up. That’s probably, underneath that is panic. Craig Jones (01:50:53): If you can make someone panic, you’ll fatigue them. It’s the same, it’s like even if you higher level and you’re worried about getting your guard passed, it’s the panic that leads to fatigue in your guard retention. But if you’re so flexible, you remain calm. I think it’s because you’re not panicked. Lex Fridman (01:51:09): Fear is the mind killer. But also you have one of the more innovative games in Jiu-Jitsu history. How’d you develop that? How do you continue throughout your career? How were you innovating? What was your approach to learning and figuring positions out? Figuring submissions out? Craig Jones (01:51:29): I mean, financial motivation. If you can hit moves that no one else knows how to do, you can sell those instructions. But also it keeps it interesting. I mean it can get stagnant and boring. A lot of people get to blue belt, they’re good at one thing. They only do that one thing. I think it’s finding creative ways to beat people. And sometimes creativity is in how they respond to it. So if you can find a humiliating move to do to someone, well, not even necessarily humiliating, but a move that is unexpected. When you get hit with something you don’t expect, I think that is sort of really one of the most fun aspects of it. You know what I mean? You train to stay better than the people you’re better than. That’s what keeps you in the game. And finding creative ways to beat those people is some of the most entertainment. Lex Fridman (01:52:19): So that’s just something that brings you joy, by doing the unexpected. Craig Jones (01:52:25): If you get swept with something that you don’t think should work, I think that’s fulfillment. Lex Fridman (01:52:32): So your game is even a bit trolly, interesting. But what’s the actual process of, with the Z Guard, all the innovative stuff you’ve done there, how do you come up with ideas there? Craig Jones (01:52:41): Just studying tape. Just study. Study tape and try to reverse engineer. If I see something or I train with someone, and it feels… You know when you have those moments where you’re like, “Oh, I don’t even know what they’re doing here.” And if you can put someone in a position they don’t understand, that’s also where they panic. So it’s creating different ways to make people panic. But also, I mean just innovation, like having fun with it. I guess the artistic aspect of it is fun. You can be creative in how you can beat people. Lex Fridman (01:53:12): Did you say artistic or autistic? Craig Jones (01:53:15): Both. Both. Lex Fridman (01:53:15): Okay. Just checking. What’s the most innovative thing you’ve come up with? What’s some of the cooler ideas you’ve come up on the mat? Craig Jones (01:53:25): I don’t think I’ve come up with anything, but I’ve popularized things. Like certain styles of leg entry. I definitely didn’t invent them, but I popularized them. Octopus guard, playing more from turtle, sort of the pinning style of game. Because of my jokes online, put me in a position of power in the sport so that when I post content, it can popularize a move or at least an instructional popularize a game. But still, I’m not trying to sell inauthentic products. I’m still, I want the technique to work, be… Lex Fridman (01:53:59): Functional. Craig Jones (01:53:59): Yeah. Lex Fridman (01:54:00): But put some humor on top of it. Like power bottom. Your instructional names are pretty good. And you changed that one. I saw the name of that. Craig Jones (01:54:06): I mean unfortunately Meta, the ads were not appreciating some of that humor, so we had to soften the titles a bit. Lex Fridman (01:54:15): You got a phone call from the man that said, “Change this.” Craig Jones (01:54:18): I didn’t. Allegedly, the company hosting it did. Lex Fridman (01:54:23): Right. What do you think about Zuck in general? The fact that he trains Jiu-Jitsu. Have you got a chance to train with him? You’ve trained with Volk? Craig Jones (01:54:32): I haven’t trained with him. I met him when Volk fought Ilia. We’ve spoken briefly. Interesting guy for sure, loves Jiu-Jitsu, loves MMA. Is really intending to compete in something I think. Lex Fridman (01:54:47): Competing in Jiu-Jitsu, intends to compete in MMA, has a beginner’s mind, is humble about it. It’s interesting. Was he ever in consideration for CJI? Craig Jones (01:54:56): Oh, I mean we would love to have him. We’d love to have him, but he’s coming off of ACL surgery. Think he’s returned to sport August. I think he’d be back training again soon. Lex Fridman (01:55:06): Yeah. What your relationship has been like with Volkanovski, like what have you learned about martial arts, about grappling in different domains? Just training with him. Craig Jones (01:55:17): I mean for me personally, what’s so interesting about Volkanovski is his, I guess where he came from. It’s like you have pre-existing ideas of what a UFC champion is. Again, I would say it’s similar to when I started training Jiu-Jitsu and I first traveled to America and got to train with some really famous people. You realize how relatable they are in some aspects. Volkanovski trains a freestyle and it is humble beginnings. Humble origins. It’s a small gym in a small sort of beach side city. They’re run on puzzle mats. You know what I mean? If you think UFC champion, you don’t think puzzle mat gym, you know what I mean? He’s not training at American Top Team, he’s not at one of these big gyms. So to me it just shows what you’re capable of through hard work and sort of self-educating in such an isolated place. Craig Jones (01:56:11): It’s insane to me that he’s still considered probably the pound for pound best featherweight ever in my opinion. And he’s basically come across and started late from a rugby background. But also in terms of what I’ve learned on a technical level, I’ve picked up a lot of stuff from him in sort of grappling exchanges. How to get back up. Obviously, wall wrestling. In terms of how hard he trains, how hard he works the cardio aspect is insane. His cardio workouts are absolutely insane. Lex Fridman (01:56:42): So he is the opposite of you, essentially. Craig Jones (01:56:44): Complete opposite of me probably publicly and privately as an athlete. Yeah. The amount of work he puts in and just his sheer mental willpower. I remember there’s been a couple of times where I’ve watched him do weight cuts where like, ” That’s horrible.” You’re watching your friend, obviously we started as basically I would help him in certain Jui Jitsu aspects, and then becomes a close friend of yours. Craig Jones (01:57:10): But the whole process of the MMA fight is horrible, especially when you care about the person fighting because some of those weight cuts you see are awful. You’re basically seeing guys’ eyes roll back in their head, like him just powering through a five kilo, 10 pound cut. And just constantly talking about how easy it is. But while clearly, I mean these guys look like they’re dying. To push through that, and then to push through some of the moments in his fight. To watch him be completely relaxed until five minutes before the fight and then he starts talking about, “You’re never going to take this belt away from my family.” He’s thinking about his family before he fights, his kids. You see the character change. It’s just absolutely insane to watch. Craig Jones (01:57:59): On the other side of that is obviously watching the ups and downs. It’s been so many ups. The last two have been downs. So you’re seeing the full spectrum of the highest highs and the lowest lows. Lex Fridman (01:58:13): How’s he able to deal psychologically with loss? Craig Jones (01:58:16): I don’t know. Obviously he’s still hungry, still motivated. Obviously I thrive in a losing environment, but him on the other hand, I’m not sure. We don’t talk too much on that level. Obviously we check in as friends, see what he’s up to, see what he’s planning. We were trying to get him a grappling match at CJI. I won’t say the reasons it fell through, but we were setting one up with Mikey Musumeci, but we couldn’t get it done. Lex Fridman (01:58:46): And you can’t say the reasons why. Craig Jones (01:58:47): I can’t say the reasons, but would’ve been awesome. Lex Fridman (01:58:49): Do you think you could have set that up if you had more time? Part of the challenge here is for some of these gigantic matchups, I feel like it takes time. Craig Jones (01:59:00): Being the promoter. Tournament, not as bad. The superfights really, really difficult. I don’t think we could have set it up with more time, that particular match. But that was the dream. That’s what we were hoping to do. Lex Fridman (01:59:14): But there’s a lot of other interesting matchups that you could have possibly gotten through if there’s more time. Craig Jones (01:59:18): Yeah, I’d love to see, I mean personally I really want to see Volks and Ortega have an actual grappling match. We saw him get out of those deep submissions and apply a ton of ground power. I’d love to see them just have a grappling match. I’d love to see more of the UFC stars have grappling matches, especially if they’ve had any head trauma in a fight. It’s like, “Hey, let’s keep them busy.” As you see, some of those guys go crazy if they can’t train. Lex Fridman (01:59:44): What about the fights against Makhachev? You think Volk can beat him? Craig Jones (01:59:48): I think the first fight showed he could beat him, for sure showed it’s possible. Even in the second fight, when he reversed the grappling exchange. I wish he’d tried to take Makhachev down. I really think he has a huge strength advantage against Makhachev and I personally believe he has a fence wrestling advantage. You might not see it in a sense of the technical hip tosses and things like that really, but I do believe Volk’s one of the best, if not the best cage wrestler in the world. Lex Fridman (02:00:19): But who do you think wins in a grappling match? Craig Jones (02:00:21): That would be interesting. Would be interesting. The problem is two almost to while you are a champion like Islam is you could just never book them. You could never get it. Lex Fridman (02:00:32): What do you think makes the Dagestani wrestlers and fighters so good? Craig Jones (02:00:36): I think personally, those guys are just like, they just love it. It’s just about, it’s how they train. It’s a fight to the death, you know what I mean? It’s just built in them. They don’t want to concede an inch ever. I think for MMA and wrestling, that can be very, very good. I think sometimes when those guys come over to Jiu-Jitsu specific events, they get leglocked. They fall into traps. Overly aggressive or overly evasive. But I think the way they train just is perfect for a fight. A fight, they can just forward pressure, eat some shots, grind a guy against the wall. Fence wrestling is technical. Jiu-jitsu is far more technical. Craig Jones (02:01:17): There’s way more things you can do in a grappling scenario from top and bottom than I think against the wall. So a grinding nature of how they train works really good to walk a guy down and take him down against the wall. And then obviously with ground and pound, very good to hold a guy down. So I think just never conceding an inch in training. It’s just they’ve done that since they were born, basically. Lex Fridman (02:01:42): So you learn how to grind somebody down? Craig Jones (02:01:44): Yeah, they’re just trying to break each other at all times. Trying to have some dominance over their friends and who they train with. Lex Fridman (02:01:52): But you think in the grappling context, that will not always translate? Craig Jones (02:01:57): Not when you can pull guard and submit from your back. I think that sort of negates some of that grinding pressure. I think that has to be met with more slow technical lateral movement. I think that’s the way you… That would be the dream for me is that guy just comes straight forward into my guard. That grinding approach works well if he’s taken me down and got already close to me. But if I’m laying flat on my back and he’s standing and he has to engage, he has all that danger at range. But if he can connect to my body before we go down, now we’re in his world again. I think. Lex Fridman (02:02:34): I wonder if it’s like, at his prime could be versus you for example. Who do you think wins there? Craig Jones (02:02:40): Buggy choke for sure. Lex Fridman (02:02:41): Buggy choke. No way. I know you’re joking. Craig Jones (02:02:45): We get in with a buggy, I reckon. Lex Fridman (02:02:47): Really? So you can get a buggy choke at the highest level. Can you educate me on that? That legitimately can work? At the highest level? Craig Jones (02:02:56): Buggy choke for sure. Yeah. Lex Fridman (02:02:58): Really? Craig Jones (02:02:58): Catch anyone. Lex Fridman (02:03:00): Really? Okay. Craig Jones (02:03:02): You’re not a buggy believer. Lex Fridman (02:03:05): I’m not a buggy hater either. I’m just, I’m agnostic on the buggy choke. Craig Jones (02:03:11): Khabib would go to sleep for sure. Lex Fridman (02:03:13): Yeah? Craig Jones (02:03:13): Yeah. There’s no way he would tap to a buggy choke. Who was it? I faced recently, I faced a Russian guy from Tata. I couldn’t buggy him. I was trying a closed guard one though, sort of. It is harder to pull off, but I had to put him to sleep twice at the end of the match with a triangle. But he was just willing. I don’t know, Eastern European guys, it’s like they’re treating it like a real fight. Lex Fridman (02:03:37): Have you ever gone hard with a Dagestani person? Grappling, wrestling, any of the fighters, any of the MMA guys? Craig Jones (02:03:48): Have I, have I, have I? I mean they do train hard. They do train hard. When I did the seminar in Odessa, it was at a school, but another school in the city brought like 10 Dagestani guys. All of them went insanely hard. I was like, “Guys,” it’s a small sample size, but they all wanted to be broken. Lex Fridman (02:04:09): What do you think, you as the wise sage of Jiu-Jitsu, if you look 10, 20 years out, how do you think the game is going to evolve? The art of it. Craig Jones (02:04:17): The art of it. I mean, I think obviously people are going to keep innovating, perfecting certain things, throwing out information, bad sort of techniques, bad sort of… But I mean it’s so hard to predict. It’s like that’s the game of making money off the instructionals is predicting where we go next. It’s so, so difficult. Lex Fridman (02:04:36): What do you think is going to be the most popular submissions on CGI and ADCC this year? Is it going to be footlocks or rear naked? Craig Jones (02:04:43): I think actually CGI, I think there’s going to be a lot of guys that don’t tap, that take injuries. A small concern is that a guy wins the match but is so injured he can barely go onto the next match. Win the battle, lose the war. Lex Fridman (02:04:59): We are going to see that. Aren’t we? People refusing to tap. Craig Jones (02:05:03): Actually we did the walkthrough yesterday and we were like, “One ambulance is not enough. Get a second one here.” If they take one guy injured to hospital, we can’t continue until an ambulance comes back. So these guys are going to go, everyone will be Dagestani for a day. That’s what I think this tournament will achieve. Craig Jones (02:05:23): But progression, it’ll just be the integration of wrestling into Jiu-Jitsu. I think that would be the most exciting way the sport could progress. It’s basically folk style wrestling, but an integration of submissions from the standing position too. If you just follow the rules of you should always be fighting to get on top, whether that’s a submission that leads to a sweep or a sweep. And you should be trying to avoid being pinned. And as long as the game revolves around that and guys engage each other offensively on their feet, that would be the most exciting, best way to watch the sport. Lex Fridman (02:06:02): Yeah. When I show the sport of Jiu-Jitsu, the most exciting stuff is whenever both people want to be wrestling, scrambling, wrestling, they both want to get on top. Craig Jones (02:06:11): Yeah, the scramble. Lex Fridman (02:06:11): That looks like fighting versus guard stuff. Craig Jones (02:06:15): I’m a guy that totally agrees with you, but if I think the guy’s a better wrestler, I’ll concede. It’s like that’s the hard part. Lex Fridman (02:06:23): But then the whole crowd will then mock you ceaselessly, as they should for conceding. Craig Jones (02:06:29): That’s what the million should be. We should have a tournament or a round-robin thing where it’s like the million goes to the most exciting man, who took the most risks. Lex Fridman (02:06:37): I mean, in a way that’s what’s going to happen because this is quite open. So the benefit of being exciting is you’re going to be glorified on social media and if you’re going to be boring and stall, you’re going to be endlessly sort of willified. Craig Jones (02:06:52): Forget about medals, social media glory is all that matters. Lex Fridman (02:06:56): Well, in a certain sense, on a basic human level, yeah. I mean not all that matters. But if you’re going to stall, you’re going to become a meme I feel like, especially with CGI. Are the refs going to try to stop stalling? Craig Jones (02:07:11): Yeah, we’re going to penalize them hard. Hit them hard, get that boring shit out of here. Lex Fridman (02:07:16): So what percentage of athletes would you say are on steroids? Is it a hundred percent? Craig Jones (02:07:22): Anyone that’s ever beaten me, they’re taking more steroids than me. I don’t know. I wanted to test them, but not to do anything bad, but just in the name of science to see what people are running. It’s so hard to say because you train with people and they don’t even tell you what they’re on. I tell the world what I’m on and they go, “Look at you, you’re not taking any steroids.” It’s like such a secret thing. I personally think it’s almost impossible to say, but occasionally you look at a guy and you’re pretty certain. Lex Fridman (02:07:56): The looks of it. But it could also go the other way. Certain people are just genetically built and they look like they are. And then there’s probably others like yourself. Craig Jones (02:08:07): It’s a self-defense mechanism. You’d rather assume that that guy was on steroids than his genetics are so far superior to yours. You’re like, “Nah, it must be steroids.” Lex Fridman (02:08:19): Yeah, that’s the part of accusations of people being on steroids that I hate. It’s like without data, people are just like, it’s a way they can say that somebody’s cheating without… Because I like celebrating people and sometimes people aren’t on steroids and they aren’t cheating and they’re just fucking good. Craig Jones (02:08:36): What about Gabby Garcia? Lex Fridman (02:08:38): I think she’s beautiful, strong. You’re a lucky man to share the mat with her. You should be honored. I am betting a huge amount of money on her, so… Craig Jones (02:08:51): Me too. Lex Fridman (02:08:53): Either way, you’re going to get paid. Craig Jones (02:08:54): She’s paying 11 to one. Lex Fridman (02:08:56): I bet on love as well. So we are aligned in that way. Craig Jones (02:08:59): Love will prevail. Lex Fridman (02:09:00): Okay, you put Alex Jones to sleep. Just to reflect back on that, what was… Craig Jones (02:09:09): He was too woke. He needed it. Lex Fridman (02:09:11): So that’s you fighting the woke mind virus or whatever? Craig Jones (02:09:14): I think it was on the pulse too much. Lex Fridman (02:09:15): What was that like? I didn’t see the full video. I just saw a little clip. Craig Jones (02:09:20): I thought he was dead for a second. But I, for some strange reason, couldn’t stop laughing. I don’t know. I was like, please wake up. Lex Fridman (02:09:26): There’s something funny about it. Yeah. Craig Jones (02:09:28): I was like, his blood pressure is higher than mine. I hope that didn’t cook him. Lex Fridman (02:09:32): Yeah, that would be quite sad. Craig Jones (02:09:34): It’s so crazy. Lex Fridman (02:09:35): Murder somebody. Craig Jones (02:09:36): Yeah, he’s probably the most just entertaining human being ever. He just says the… Like, off-air. He’s always on. He’s always ready to say some wild shit. Lex Fridman (02:09:52): The craziest shit possible. What’s it like going to sleep? I somehow have never gone to sleep. Craig Jones (02:09:58): I went to sleep one time. Lachlan Charles was demonstrating a technique on me, but I woke up straight away. But for 10 seconds I didn’t know who I was, where I was, what I was doing. But that’s it. That’s the only time I went out. Lex Fridman (02:10:07): Saw anything. Craig Jones (02:10:09): Didn’t feel good though. Some people say it feels good. Did not feel good. Lex Fridman (02:10:12): You were like what? Panicked. Lost. Craig Jones (02:10:12): Yeah. I just didn’t know what was going on. Lex Fridman (02:10:17): Yeah. And then you load it… That must be a cool feeling to load it all back in. Realize, “Where am I?” I feel like that sometimes at a hotel when I’m traveling. It’s like, “Where the fuck am I again?” When you wake up. Maybe that’s what it’s like. Craig Jones (02:10:29): Some people push it too far. David Carradine. Lex Fridman (02:10:33): What? I’m too dumb to get that joke. Craig Jones (02:10:39): Autoerotic asphyxiation. Lex Fridman (02:10:40): Oh, good. Thank you. Thank you. Now I know. So given all the places you’ve gone, all the people you’ve seen recently, what gives you hope about this whole thing we’ve got going on? About humanity, about this world? We start war sometimes. We do horrible things to each other sometimes. Amidst all that. What gives you hope? Craig Jones (02:11:04): That you can still make fun of anything. As long as it’s funny. That’s what I’m fighting for. People talk about cancel culture. I just think the joke wasn’t funny enough. Had poor delivery. Lex Fridman (02:11:19): Well, thank you for being at the forefront of making fun of everything and anything. And thank you for talking today, brother. Craig Jones (02:11:25): Thank you bro. Lex Fridman (02:11:27): Thanks for listening to this conversation with Craig Jones. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from Anthony Bourdain. “Travel changes you. As you move through this life and this world, you change things slightly. You leave marks behind, however small, and in return, life and travel leaves marks on you.” Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

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