Lex Fridman Podcast #379 - #379 – Randall Kennedy: The N-Word – History of Race, Law, Politics, and Power Machine transcription by Qwen3-ASR 0.6B (MLX, local, Apache-2.0). May contain recognition errors. The following is a conversation with Randall Kennedy, professor at Harvard Law School and author of many seminal books on race, law, history, culture and politics, including specifically on affirmative action, criminal justice, policing, and the topic explored extensively in this conversation—the single most powerful word and slur in the English language—the n-word with a hard R at the end. Randall has written a book with this word as the title, "N-word: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word." Please be warned that Randall uses this word throughout this conversation deliberately and skillfully to discuss its power and its role in the history of the United States. 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We don't know actually how the term nigger became a slur. So there were words that were close to nigger, nigger that were used in various ways. For instance, nigger, uh, you h has been was used, nigger, you r was used, and sometimes it was used in a way that seemed to be just purely descriptive. We do know that by the early 19th century, it had become a slur. It had become a derogatory word about which people complained, but exactly how that came about, not altogether clear. So it's been 20 years since you've written the book. What have you? What wisdom have you gained about this word since writing the book and maybe having to interact with people, having to read, having to see, having to feel the response to the book. This book has generated a lot of controversy. I thought it would—it's probably generated more controversy that I had anticipated. It has certainly generated more. More different sorts of experiences than I had anticipated. So for instance, I did not think that writing this book would prompt people to ask me to be an expert witness in cases. And over the past 20 years, I've been an expert witness in a number of different cases. I've been an expert witness in case in a murder case in various cases of of assault. I've been an expert witness in cases involving tort cases, intentional infliction of emotional distress. I've been an expert witness in a number of employment cases. I had not anticipated that, nor had I anticipated the extent to which people would get in trouble for using my book. Every year, there are teachers who are suspended or who are fired because they will excerpt a chapter of my book. Let's let's imagine a. And this is not I'm not imagining things as this happened. A teacher is teaching, for instance, the Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn. The word nigger appears in that book over 200 times. The teacher, trying to be earnest, trying to be sensible, trying to be serious, will excerpt a part of my book. To acquaint students with the history of the word and maybe the history of controversy involving the use of the word in this particular novel. The student, you know, the teacher will give it out, hand it out to the teachers, hand it out to students, and there have been a number of teachers who've been suspended or worse because of that. Students will get upset, go home, tell their parents. Their parents will storm to the school and say that this is you know this is terrible. The teacher is quote using the word nigger in an offensive way, and oftentimes administrators will basically abandon the the teacher. And this whenever this comes to my attention, I write I'll write the you know superintendent of schools or I'll write the principal or sometimes I'll you know I'll write an opinion editorial piece for the local newspaper. But every year there are teachers who are disciplined for using my book. I had not I had not anticipated that. And what is the nature of the letter or the or the op-ed that you write on why they shouldn't be disciplined or if they they to the degree they should be or shouldn't be. There's there has not been one case. There's not been one case that has come to my attention in which it was even remotely sensible for the teacher to be disciplined. And what I say is that number one, frankly, I go through it's the what I write is almost a synopsis of my book. Number one, this is an important word in American history. It is a word that is explosive. That's why people get so upset. It's a word that's volatile. It's a word that has typically has typically been used in a terrible way. It's a word that is part of the soundtrack of racial terrorism in the United States. So people ought to know about this word. I mean, if you're interested in knowing the real history of the United States, if you're interested in knowing about lynching, if you're interested in knowing about the way in which black people have been terrorized in the United States, you need to know this word. You need to know that history, so you need to know why it is that people are upset about the word. But that's not but it doesn't in there. You have to know that, and if you know that, then that knowledge should equip you to be careful. It should equip you to know that you know to know the the the range of contexts in which this word appears. But again, it doesn't just in there because especially young people. You tell that to young people, they nod, they read, they understand that. But then, but then what? But then they turn on their radios and they turn on you know they listen to Spotify, they listen to their some of their favorite entertainers. They listen to Doctor Dre, they listen to the ghetto boys, they listen to you know Snoop. And they listen to NWA. What do they hear? They they they they listen to stand up comedians, they listen to Dave Chappelle, they listen to Cat Williams. Ah, they you know what do they hear? They hear the word nigger or nigga being used in a lot of different ways. And so they need to know about that as well. What are people doing? What do how does one explain the fact that Dick Gregory? Dick Gregory was a comedian activist, friend of Martin Luther King Jr. A true activist. I mean, he had a very he had a flourishing career as an entertainer that he abandons. In order to struggle for racial justice throughout the United States and including the Deep South, how does one explain the fact that he he wrote several memoirs? But his first memoir is called "Nigger." A memoir, how does one explain that? How does one explain the way in which? How does one explain Richard Pryor? I mean, Richard Pryor's best album is "That Nigger's Crazy." Well, was Richard Pryor trying to put down black people? How does one explain that? One can only explain that by getting deeper into the word by understanding that yes, this is a word that has been used in a derogatory way. This has been this is a word that has been used to put people down. This has been this is a word that has been used to terrorize people. You got to know that. But you also have to know that this is a word that has also been put to other uses. There are artists, there are entertainers. Who have used this word like Dick Gregory used it to put up a mirror to American society and say, "Look at this word and look at the terrible way in which it's been used." We don't want you to look away. No, don't look away. We're not no euphemism, no asterisk, no no n-word, no nigger. Now we want you to look at that, and we want to talk about that James Baldwin. James Baldwin there was a there was a documentary about James Baldwin a couple of years ago, highly lauded documentary. The title that was given in this documentary was, "I am not your Negro." That's not what James Baldwin said. Anybody can take go to YouTube right now, take a look. James Baldwin said, "I am not your nigger," and then he went on to talk about that. Well, you know James Baldwin wasn't again he he wasn't trying to cover up anything. He wanted people to face the facts of American life. And it seems to me that if you're a teacher and you want to have your students face the facts about American life, well, you've got to grapple with the word nigger. Now let me just quickly say, you know, teachers have a tough job. And if we're talking about students, of course, there's a wide range of students. Am I saying that one ought to give my book to kindergarteners? No, you know kindergarteners are probably not ready for such a book. Third graders probably no, not third grade. If we're talking, however, about people in the tenth grade, do I think the tenth graders can read my book? Yeah, sure, absolutely. 11th graders, 12th graders, people in college, there are people in college, there are people in college, there are people in law schools. Teachers in law schools have been disciplined for because the word nigger has come out of a teacher's mouth. Why in a couple of cases recently, teacher would be reading a a court opinion. The word appears in the court opinion. The teacher pronounces the word ah, you know students get up, leave in a huff, report the teacher. There's some instances in which teachers have been under those circumstances, have been disciplined. In my view, that's bad, and people ought to say it's bad. It's bad pedagogically, and frankly, in many of these instances, it's not only it's stupid, and I don't mind saying that. I think that some of these instances in which teachers have been disciplined absolutely stupid. People say, "Well, the teacher use the word, excuse me, use the word." It'd be one thing, it'd be one thing if a teacher looked at a student and called the student nigger. You know, get out of here, nigger. That'd be one. That'd be you know fine discipline. That's teacher. That's that's bad, but that's not what's going on. You don't have these none of these are cases in which you have an individual who is a stranger to another individual and this word just sort of comes out. No, what we have here is a class. Involving a person who is a teacher interacting with students, talking about subjects in which it would be perfectly understandable why this word would emerge as a subject of conversation. Now under those circumstances, it's somehow wrong for a teacher to you to to utter this word. In my view, the answer is no, and you know I said that 20 years ago. I say I say it even more emphatically now. Still, it is one of the most powerful words in the English language, and there's a kind of responsibility that we as humans should have with words with statements. That word. If not used skillfully, if not used competently, even when just read from a legal transcript, can do more more harm than good. Ah, I agree with what you say. Yes, words are powerful. Words do matter, and so I am certainly not suggesting that people be lax. I am not suggesting that people be irresponsible. It's precisely because words matter, however, that we need to be willing to face words and grapple with words and talk about words and talk about the history of words. Precisely because words matter. And among other things, it seems to me it's important to understand that words can mean different things in different contexts. It's not the case that a word. Means the same thing in every context. The word discriminating sometimes it's a very bad thing that person discriminates. And when you if you know again you know intonation of voice means something if I say that person discriminates, and I am obviously being disapproving. Implicitly, what I am saying is that person distinguishes between things on an unjustifiable basis, and that's a bad thing. On the other hand, that person has discriminating taste. Oh, that means something very different. That means that the person differentiates in a way that shows that they understand the difference between excellent, good, and not so good, and we think that that's a good thing. So words can have different, you know, words can mean different things in different contexts. It seems to me that that's something that actually we ought to recognize. We ought to recognize and talk about. Well, some words enter this territory of being a slur, and it seems like when they cross the line into being a slur. The there is the number of contexts in which it's okay to mention it exponentially decreases. Right. No, no, I am going to no, I am going to resist that a little bit because the whole idea of you know slurs, slurs change. Yankee was a slur. Yankee was a slur in you know 18th century United States. Slur today, you know New York Yankees. I am a Yankee fan. I am a Yankee. Um, queer, queer, you know you know and then this is in in in my lifetime there was a time you know that you queer. And people would really run away from it, and that was you know a bad thing. And then thank goodness. Gay liberation movement, gay liberation movement basically we're not going to run away from this. We're going to grab this quote slur and we're going to affix it to ourselves. And we are going to repurpose it. Now the word queer is again you know can it be a slur? Yeah, it can be a slur. Doesn't have to be. And it seems to me that it's important for people to know about how a word a symbol in some context can be a slur and some context doesn't have to be. So the whole idea of you know what's a slur, that's that's a complicated idea in and of itself. It's very complicated. It's if I may say almost fascinating how language evolves. But if we were to. Kind of have a minute by minute evaluation of the most powerful intensely slur like words in the world. I think the n-word with a hard R at the end, which is the title of your book, is number one on that list. Well, probably so, and of course that's one of the reasons why I wrote a little book about it. Yeah, but it hasn't even since you wrote a little book about it. It seems like it's maintained its number one status. You mentioned queer. It maybe queer was in the top 20. I don't know for a while and now it's sliding into the top thousand and the n-word is at the top. You are absolutely right. The origins of this book. I clearly remember I was I was at my office and I was thinking about lecture topics when I get invited to give lectures from time to time. And I was thinking, well, what what what might make for an interesting lecture? And all of a sudden, the word nigger popped into my mind. Now this is a word I've I've grown up with this word. I mean, there is there is there has never been a time in my life. When, um, at least in my conscious life, in which I've in which this word has been absent. I mean, in in my household for instance, in my household. My parents are black people. My parents were refugees from the Jim Crow South. I was born in the deep South, South Carolina. In my household, I heard the word nigger used in every possible way. I heard it used as a slur. I also heard it used with respect to people who were praised. You know my father. I clearly remember my father, whom I revere. That's the smartest nigger in the world. That's the bravest nigger in the world. That's the baddest nigger I know. Was he wasn't putting people down? This is how he talked. And I grew up hearing this word in various ways. And so I was thinking to myself, God, where did this word come from? And one of the first things I did, I clearly remember just jumping up at my seat, running up to the library Oxford English Dictionary. When did this word first appear in English? What was the history of the word? And then what really sort of grabbed my attention is um. I went. I I get my computer going and I ask the computer system. Um, give me every case, every federal court case in which this word appears, thousands of cases. And then I said, "Oh my goodness, this is really and you know this is really interesting." And then I started just cataloging all the different cases. There came a point I'd say probably about a month into this. I compared the usage. I compared the number of times nigger came up with other sorts of slurs. So for instance, kike. Kike long time you know you know derogatory word for Jews. How many times has this word come up? There was a time in which in which the word appeared, but nothing like the infamous n-word. Nothing and then I you know what about wet back. What about and then I just you know let me let me just take a look at all the other slurs. Nothing came close, not even remotely close to nigger, and I think it has something to do with. I think it has something to do with the uniqueness of the color line, particularly as it pertains to African Americans. I think that the the fact that nigger. Ah, sort of occupies such a unique status among slurs. I think that's a reflection of the unique stigma. That has been imposed on African Americans. It's hard to know the chicken or the egg. Why one word is able to so distinctly and clearly encapsulate this struggle between races that has throughout American history. I mean, it didn't have to probably be so, but it came to be that way. It became that not only that not only that but of course. The nigger spurred other slurs. So Arabs, San niggers, the Irish, the niggers of Europe. Women, the niggers of the world. John Lennon even has a song. That's right. Well, I think Yoko Ono I think had something to do with that song. So I mean, it is a slur that has spawned other slurs. And again, this is that's why you know as you indicated a moment ago, this is a quite. Unique term, but are you conscious? Are you deliberate in you saying this word? So let me just say from a personal experience. Maybe my upbringing where I came from in my daily life, I don't think I've ever heard that word with a hard R said as often. You clearly in my life said I've heard it today more than I have ever heard in my entire life. And I think there is a. A few people who listen to this they will be listening to this and be very uncomfortable. I would say not in a bad way. Probably in a good way. I am uncomfortable now and I am almost introspecting and trying to figure out why I am uncomfortable. And I think even the title of your book is making me think that. Just just looking into my own mind and trying to understand wow words have power and why does it have so much power but are you deliberate in that action and by the way not only are the people listening to this sweating this will be on YouTube in part. And YouTube the people on the other side will be sweating. What do we do with this? Yeah, well, am I deliberate? The answer is yes. And let me unpack that a little bit first. That's right. I mean, am I deliberate? Yeah, what I deliberately I deliberately wrote a book called Nigger: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word. And you know, was that deliberate? Yeah, that was quite deliberate. But the title could have been n-word. The title could have been the title could have been n-word. Sure, the title could have been the title could have been. A book about a word that causes pain to many people. I could have named it that. There are many there are many titles I could have used. Did I want a title that would be provocative? Did I want a title that would grab people? The answer to that is yes. What do you know? I am a writer. I want people to read what I write. What was I being sensationalistic? Well, I mean if if if you want to put it like that, yes, I don't I don't I am not embarrassed to say that. I mean, I am sure that when people write books, they think really hard about their titles and they try to get a title that will you know grab people's attention. I know people respect people very deeply who never, as a matter of principle, never utter this word. And I've talked with people. I've had people say, you know, I read your book, let's talk about it, but let's be very clear, I am not going to use the word. I've had many conversations with people who've asked me not to use the word. I was on a I was on a the first time this came up. Was a book tour was 20 years ago when the first book first came out, and I was on one of these call in shows early in the morning. Time came to call in seven o'clock. I call in at five of seven. Right before I go on, the host of the show says, "Oh, by the way, we have a strict policy here at the station. We never use this word." And I said, "Well, gosh, I wish you had told me this earlier. Does this mean then that you are never going to pronounce fully the title of my book?" And she said, "That's right." And I had to make up choice right then and there. Am I going to go on or am I not? What did you do? I went on and I abided by the station's rules, and you know fine, we had a perfectly fine conversation. Um and you know I there is a place for euphemism. The American language is a very supple language. There are lots of words that one can use. I do not get angry with people who don't you know they say as a matter of principle they're not going to use the word fine. I am willing to I understand where they're coming from. And often I will defer to their wishes. All I say is, I want people to understand where I am coming from. I am not just using this word willy-nilly. There is a pedagogical reason. There is a reason for why I am saying what I am saying. There is a reason why. I use the word. Can you make the case why using the word is a good idea? And can you make can you steal man the case why it's a bad idea? Maybe you've heard from some critics. Yes, who said that you saying this word out loud is actually causing a lot of harm, not like harm because people's feelings are hurt, but increasing the amount of racism and hate in the world. Yeah, critics. Let's start with the critics. Um, one again going back to the when the book was first published, I remember going to the first bookstore I went to. And I talked about the book, had a very you know talk, asked questions, and the last comment. Wasn't a question, but the last comment was made by a an elderly black man. I called on him, and he said, "I've listened to what you've had to say, and I appreciate what you've had to say. But he he said, but I remain unconvinced. " And I remain unconvinced because when I was coming up, this word was used to put me in the back of the bus. And this word was used to prevent me from voting. And this was the word that was used to justify me never being called as a juror. So to me, this word has only one meaning. It's a terrible meaning. I am never going to use the word. It hurts me when I hear people use the word, especially those who don't know anything about the you know really about the history of it. And he went on to say, "I think that your book, though well intended, is probably going to be seen by some people as giving them permission to use the word. " And then he stopped, and I thought there was a lot of power behind that gentleman's comment. I think that what he said is probably correct. And so far, is there probably some people who read the you know read the book? There probably some people who are listening to our conversation right now. Who will um think that I am giving people permission to use the word? Um, you know I have said that I am I am not. I want people to understand the word. I think that there is a burden that comes from whenever whenever you utter a word like this. Um, but that's you know that's a critique and I think there is I think there is strength to that critique. I am not going to say that that's a ridiculous critique. I think that there is something to that. And by the way, I should say and that's why. I would say to anyone, um, that's right. If this word comes out of your mouth, you are taking on real responsibility. So for years, it doesn't happen so much now. But there were I'd say for about the first. Five years after this book was published, I would get an email at least once a week, and it would begin like this. You know, dear Professor Kennedy, I read your book and I am calling to ask you a question. And as soon as I saw that, I knew what the question was going to be. And what the person would say is the following: I like rap, and then I knew I knew what was coming. I like rap. I am white, and I have black friends. And we listen to rap. And we you know we're driving in the car and we're you know we're we're listening to the song. We starts you know we start humming along and sing singing along. And my black friends sing along, and when nigger or nigger comes up, they sing. And I don't know what to do. Is it wrong for me to sing along? This happened so often that I'd say about after about the tenth time I got in such an email, I wrote a form letter. Because I didn't want to just you know take up time writing you know you know sort of crafting letter after letter after letter, so I wrote a form letter and basically what I said was, listen number one. You know I am flattered that you are asking me, but number one you you should have a conversation with your friend. Number two, no matter what your friend says, let me put something else. For you to consider, let's suppose for the sake of discussion that your friend says, "Oh, doesn't bother me, I know where you are coming from, we're just enjoying the music, I don't think that this is a you know a racist utterance, you know coming out of your mouth. Let's suppose that your friend says that. That doesn't in matters because. Let's imagine the following: let's imagine that you are in a a theater and you are waiting for the you know a film to start and you are just you know talking with your friends or singing with your friends or just you know kicking back with your friends and they're talking about nigger this or nigger this and you say it you the white boy say it and the next thing you feel is a fist a big fist in your mouth that has been launched by a person that you did not see who was right behind you all this person saw was a white person saying nigger and the next thing pow that's not you know some sort of overheated scenario coming from some law professor's mind that is a very plausible scenario so you have to be worried about lots of things including mistake so my advice to you my is be prudent I would stay clear the word unless unless you are very certain and unless if you are called on it you feel you are in a position to defend yourself defend what you are doing but the prudent thing would be to stay clear there is so many questions I want to ask there one is about the violence and the legal aspect of that is very interesting you raised that in the book but you know I do want to bring up something I probably disagree with you on which is you say that there is not a significant difference between the different variations of the n-word the one the or maybe maybe you don't I just listened to a bunch of your interviews so there is the version with a er at the end version with a ga at the end and then gro at the end these are all different versions and I feel like in that list of powerful words you know I feel like there is a distinction I feel that the number one spot is the one with the hard r and I don't know maybe you can try to shed light but I feel like the one that ends in ga is really far down the list in terms of modern culture so this is we talked about the evolution of the words and the word queer for example it feels like because maybe because of rap because of comedians because it's become much more it lost so much of its power well you don't think so no I think there is a difference between nigger and nigger I mean people make a distinction between them and I think that to the extent that lots of people make a distinction between them I think you know just as a sociological fact they are different I think that people who get upset if somebody especially white people so you know if a white person says nigger and they're you know and and they and they're you know sort of criticized about it and they say well I didn't say nigger I said nigger I believe me I think most you know most people who are mad at them are going to stay mad at them um now you you raise the word you know so nigger and nigger I would put in a very different category than negro educate me here well yeah sure I am happy to negro is a also controversial it's also controversial but negro has never been viewed by a substantial number of people as a derogatory term at least in the with the same amount of animus the same amount of um it's it's it's a very different kind of word than nigger or nigger I mean after all I mean you know negro negro Martin Luther King Jr you know you know all of his great oratory negro you read the work of um the great W B DaBois negro you read the work of my boss so for instance I use the word negro I use African American black Afro American but I also use the word negro now there are some people who get really mad at me because of you know when I use the word negro and so for instance there are students who have gotten really quite exercised and they'll say you know I'll be giving a lecture and you know a hand will go up I'll call on somebody and they'll say listen are you using the word negro in it's purely because of the historical time period that you are using so you you know is that why you are using it or are you using it in your own voice and often I'll say well I am using it in my own voice and I'll say well I am offended we think that this is you know that's old timey it's derogatory when this first came up I I said let's pause for a moment and I'll take that under advisement and let me let me look into this and I ended up writing an essay about it an essay about the history of the terms that black people have used to describe themselves and it's a long list you know black colored Afro American African American negro etc so I go through all that and I said now let me just tell you I I know for certain when I started using the word negro often in in writing I can date it nineteen eighty three the summer of nineteen eighty three is when I started using the word negro in my professional life as a lawyer and I did it for a very specific reason I did it because my boss demanded that I negro capital n now who was my boss my boss in the summer of nineteen eighty three was Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court Thurgood Marshall known as Mister Civil Rights now it seems to me you are telling me that this word is so out of bounds that this word is derogatory nobody should ever use this word does the fact that Thurgood Marshall demanded that I use this word does that complicate things a little bit and so I think that people again you know ought to know more I mean I've I've encountered students who don't know very much but who want to lecture me on on word usage because they know you know three sentences about current fashion and hold it you know hold it by the way I I push it further I sometimes use the word colored and then you know some people really don't like that colored well you know there is there is an organization still very much alive in American life and law the National Association for the advancement of colored people the N double ACP they haven't changed their name and as far as I am concerned it's a wonderful organization there are people who have used the word colored that's what my grandmother used colored perfectly fine as far as I am concerned so again we there are lots of different words that one can use you can use different formulations I understand that people have different preferences fine I have my preferences at least know where I am coming from still words have power and they have power to hurt and there is there is a lot of reasons that I could see to justify the use of the word in its full form as you are saying when in this conversation as you are using it one of them is perhaps fighting for the freedom to be able to use those kinds of words so let me ask you about the freedom of speech and the censorship of the word should the use of the n-word be censored for example on social networks